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Heavyweight Boxing

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    #5642
    squinn2912
    Registered Users Posts: 4,679 ✭✭✭squinn2912


    yourdeadwright wrote: »
    Hes very boring but he does the basics very well
    I think because he became a pro so late in life he doesnt need to play upto his ego or try be something he is not he is happy just to do what he has to do to win,

    Theres lots of good fights for him now, Whyte,Uysk, AVP, even Wilder, i could see ways he could ends up in the ring with any of then,
    In saying that he may not beat any of them

    He interviews like a moron as well and that does nothing to add enthusiasm. His impression of Usyk is full on cringe I couldn’t believe what I was seeing. But he’s a very effective operator.

    Who is AVP? I think he could well beat Whyte his jab is much better and so is his footwork. Whyte is much more aggressive but his basics are all over the place and he can’t stay focussed. He could be up against Wilder but I can’t see how Wilder wouldn’t make that massive reach and speed count at some point. Wilder KO in any round but I’d expect mid rounds. Ortiz might be a good match up for Joyce. Lots of fights there for him but he will want to get the best money fight I’d imagine that’s Usyk. I give him a real chance with Usyk as well but I don’t think prodding him with the jab would be enough to do the same damage as Dubois.


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    #5643
    yourdeadwright
    Registered Users Posts: 20,523 ✭✭✭✭yourdeadwright


    squinn2912 wrote: »
    He interviews like a moron as well and that does nothing to add enthusiasm. His impression of Usyk is full on cringe I couldn’t believe what I was seeing. But he’s a very effective operator.

    Who is AVP? I think he could well beat Whyte his jab is much better and so is his footwork. Whyte is much more aggressive but his basics are all over the place and he can’t stay focussed. He could be up against Wilder but I can’t see how Wilder wouldn’t make that massive reach and speed count at some point. Wilder KO in any round but I’d expect mid rounds. Ortiz might be a good match up for Joyce. Lots of fights there for him but he will want to get the best money fight I’d imagine that’s Usyk. I give him a real chance with Usyk as well but I don’t think prodding him with the jab would be enough to do the same damage as Dubois.

    Ye he is very boring and has no star power , he is almost to respectful for the business he is in ,

    Alexander Vladimirovich Povetkin

    I honestly think Joyce is clever enough to know where he stands and will go into any of them fights knowing he is an under dog,

    He has got a lot of flak over his style and lack of personality so I'm delighted for him getting the win and hopefully get himself and nice big pay day or two now ,


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    #5644
    iebamm2580
    Registered Users Posts: 1,610 ✭✭✭iebamm2580


    surprised dubois quit, i know hes young but that does not bode too well for the future, thought joyce showed a good chin tbf, but jesus he comes across terrible and he just doesn't have the humor to even try be funny. Dubois seems like a nice guy but again very camera shy, not the 2 sharpest knives in the drawer unlike fury who is by far the wittiest and funniest.


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    #5645
    gypsy79
    Registered Users Posts: 1,784 ✭✭✭gypsy79


    I would sum up the fight as Dubois throwing in occassional 3o seconds of good work then allowing Joyce to jab the head off him with no head movement

    I can understand why there were scorecards so far apart because different judges will value the quality higher than the constant little jabs to the head

    Long way back for Dubois as learning the required head movement is not easy


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    #5646
    yourdeadwright
    Registered Users Posts: 20,523 ✭✭✭✭yourdeadwright


    gypsy79 wrote: »
    I would sum up the fight as Dubois throwing in occassional 3o seconds of good work then allowing Joyce to jab the head off him with no head movement

    I can understand why there were scorecards so far apart because different judges will value the quality higher than the constant little jabs to the head

    Long way back for Dubois as learning the required head movement is not easy

    It stank of Dubois having no amateur experience and lacking the real basic's
    He couldn't close the distance or set anything up properly ,

    I'm convinced his 30 seconds of walking Joyce down throwing hard leather was a way of trying to force Joyce into a fire fight , It was desperation that Joyce didn't fall for ,

    Again Joyce is no world beater but being a Olympic silver medallist without being athletically explosive or quick handed means he must have a very good knowledge of the basics and it showed,


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    #5647
    Morrison J
    Registered Users Posts: 3,849 ✭✭✭Morrison J


    Fights like Saturday night does make one wonder why we have a 380 page thread on the worst division in boxing. Scary the lack of talent coming through too. Once Fury, Wilder and Joshua retire there's going to be very little. Two of the biggest hopes in Yoka and Dubois both looked a fraction of what they're hyped up to be at the weekend.


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    #5648
    Cyrus
    Registered Users Posts: 19,674 ✭✭✭✭Cyrus


    it was worth watching to see franks face when he realised Dubois wasnt the second coming to be fair, but it is a worrying time for the heavy weight scene, the americans just arent getting into boxing at hw, if they are big its football or basketball.


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    #5649
    The Nal
    Registered Users Posts: 12,454 ✭✭✭✭The Nal


    Cyrus wrote: »
    it was worth watching to see franks face when he realised Dubois wasnt the second coming to be fair, but it is a worrying time for the heavy weight scene, the americans just arent getting into boxing at hw, if they are big its football or basketball.

    Or MMA.

    Who was the last great HW? Evander? Thats depressing.


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    #5650
    gypsy79
    Registered Users Posts: 1,784 ✭✭✭gypsy79


    The Nal wrote: »
    Or MMA.

    Who was the last great HW? Evander? Thats depressing.

    Tyson Fury is possibly the greatest HW of all time and we are lamenting how bad current is??


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    #5651
    The Nal
    Registered Users Posts: 12,454 ✭✭✭✭The Nal


    gypsy79 wrote: »
    Tyson Fury is possibly the greatest HW of all time and we are lamenting how bad current is??

    Sorry no to clarify, I meant the last great American HW.

    Assume you're joking about Tyson Fury being possibly the greatest HW of all time?

    Either way, yeah, the current HW scene is a shambles in terms of quality.


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    #5652
    Morrison J
    Registered Users Posts: 3,849 ✭✭✭Morrison J


    The Nal wrote: »
    Or MMA.

    Who was the last great HW? Evander? Thats depressing.

    Wlad is a top 10 heavyweight of all time for me.

    If Fury beats Joshua it's hard to argue against him being top 10. If he beats Joshua and Usyk (presuming Usyk gets some high level wins at the weight) I think you literally can't argue against him being top 10 all time.


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    #5653
    yourdeadwright
    Registered Users Posts: 20,523 ✭✭✭✭yourdeadwright


    The Nal wrote: »
    Or MMA.

    Who was the last great HW? Evander? Thats depressing.

    No even great American heavy weights in MMA currently

    Its NBA & Baseball & Football and understandably so

    Iv always maintained that we as boxing fans have not scratched the surface of what guys are a capable off,

    Its very very rare for boxing to get guys who are the best athletes in there early teens , they all go into other easier and more money spinning sports , Boxer's tend to be kids with troubled pasts and from tough area's its just the way the sport is ,

    If any of my boys are good athletes (little young yet) i'll push them into things other than boxing & iv been around the sport for nearly 35 years

    Look at the current top 3 heavy weight for instance

    Fury a traveller its part of there heritage ,
    AJ an ex drug dealer who got involved to keep out of trouble
    Wilder only took up the sport late to make money because his daughter was sick ,

    Boxing does not have an allure to top early teen athletes only in some very rare cases ,


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    #5654
    The Nal
    Registered Users Posts: 12,454 ✭✭✭✭The Nal


    Morrison J wrote: »
    Wlad is a top 10 heavyweight of all time for me.

    If Fury beats Joshua it's hard to argue against him being top 10.

    Not to drop a bomb in the thread but ahead of? Foreman, Dempsey, Frazier, Holyfield, Holmes?... Just 5 at random outside the top 5 (for me).

    Beaten Wilder and a shot Klitschko in a snoozefest. Maybe with a win over Joshua and Usyk as you say yeah. I hope it happens. But the standard is so poor its difficult to compare era to era. Andy Ruiz was HW champ last year FFS. Embarrassing for the division. Not quite Leon Spinks, but close.
    yourdeadwright wrote: »
    No even great American heavy weights in MMA currently

    Its NBA & Baseball & Football and understandably so

    Iv always maintained that we as boxing fans have not scratched the surface of what guys are a capable off,

    Its very very rare for boxing to get guys who are the best athletes in there early teens , they all go into other easier and more money spinning sports , Boxer's tend to be kids with troubled pasts and from tough area's its just the way the sport is ,

    If any of my boys are good athletes (little young yet) i'll push them into things other than boxing & iv been around the sport for nearly 35 years

    Look at the current top 3 heavy weight for instance

    Fury a traveller its part of there heritage ,
    AJ an ex drug dealer who got involved to keep out of trouble
    Wilder only took up the sport late to make money because his daughter was sick ,

    Boxing does not have an allure to top early teen athletes only in some very rare cases ,

    Well Miocic, Jones (at HW weight now) and Cormier all great. But I take your point. A lot of the kids are steered towards other sports yeah. MMA is massive now though with kids.


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    #5655
    OmegaGene
    Registered Users Posts: 8,640 ✭✭✭OmegaGene


    Cyrus wrote: »
    it was worth watching to see franks face when he realised Dubois wasnt the second coming to be fair, but it is a worrying time for the heavy weight scene, the americans just arent getting into boxing at hw, if they are big its football or basketball.
    More money in football or basketball sadly

    The internet isn’t for everyone



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    #5656
    Morrison J
    Registered Users Posts: 3,849 ✭✭✭Morrison J


    The Nal wrote: »
    Not to drop a bomb in the thread but ahead of? Foreman, Dempsey, Frazier, Holyfield, Holmes?... Just 5 at random outside the top 5 (for me).
    .

    1 Ali
    2 Louis
    3 Foreman
    4 Lewis
    5 Holyfield
    6 Frazier
    7 Holmes
    8 Tyson
    9 Wlad
    10 Liston

    It's all very subjective obviously but thats probably my top 10 in that order. Good few interchangeable ones but Ali and Louis the clear top 2.

    Tier 1:
    Ali, Louis.

    Tier 2:
    Foreman, Lewis

    Tier 3:
    Holyfield, Frazier, Holmes, Tyson.

    Tier 4:
    Wlad, Liston

    If Fury cleaned out the division by beating Joshua and Usyk I think there's a very strong argument to stick him in that tier 3. Probably even the higher end of it.


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    #5657
    gypsy79
    Registered Users Posts: 1,784 ✭✭✭gypsy79


    Morrison J wrote: »
    1 Ali
    2 Louis
    3 Foreman
    4 Lewis
    5 Holyfield
    6 Frazier
    7 Holmes
    8 Tyson
    9 Wlad
    10 Liston

    It's all very subjective obviously but thats probably my top 10 in that order. Good few interchangeable ones but Ali and Louis the clear top 2.

    Tier 1:
    Ali, Louis.

    Tier 2:
    Foreman, Lewis

    Tier 3:
    Holyfield, Frazier, Holmes, Tyson.

    Tier 4:
    Wlad, Liston

    If Fury cleaned out the division by beating Joshua and Usyk I think there's a very strong argument to stick him in that tier 3. Probably even the higher end of it.

    This is mythical lists from a different age. Fact is Tyson Fury would play with all them in their peak

    So so much bigger and as talented boxer as any of them

    They were great days but the world has moved on


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    #5658
    The Nal
    Registered Users Posts: 12,454 ✭✭✭✭The Nal


    gypsy79 wrote: »
    This is mythical lists from a different age. Fact is Tyson Fury would play with all them in their peak

    So so much bigger and as talented boxer as any of them

    They were great days but the world has moved on

    Prime Lewis vs Fury would've been a slobberknocker


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    #5659
    gypsy79
    Registered Users Posts: 1,784 ✭✭✭gypsy79


    The Nal wrote: »
    Prime Lewis vs Fury would've been a slobberknocker

    I think he might be only one who would give good test


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    #5660
    yourdeadwright
    Registered Users Posts: 20,523 ✭✭✭✭yourdeadwright


    The Nal wrote: »
    Not to drop a bomb in the thread but ahead of? Foreman, Dempsey, Frazier, Holyfield, Holmes?... Just 5 at random outside the top 5 (for me).

    Beaten Wilder and a shot Klitschko in a snoozefest. Maybe with a win over Joshua and Usyk as you say yeah. I hope it happens. But the standard is so poor its difficult to compare era to era. Andy Ruiz was HW champ last year FFS. Embarrassing for the division. Not quite Leon Spinks, but close.



    Well Miocic, Jones (at HW weight now) and Cormier all great. But I take your point. A lot of the kids are steered towards other sports yeah. MMA is massive now though with kids.

    DC is retired, Miocic is 38 and Jones hasn't fought at that weight

    Jomes is a funny one hes an absolute beast but the smallest and least athletic of his brothers


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    #5661
    Morrison J
    Registered Users Posts: 3,849 ✭✭✭Morrison J


    gypsy79 wrote: »
    This is mythical lists from a different age. Fact is Tyson Fury would play with all them in their peak

    So so much bigger and as talented boxer as any of them

    They were great days but the world has moved on

    He's a tough matchup for all but definitely wouldn't play with all of them. Prime Mike Tyson for example would be a bit of a nightmare for Fury. Always been open to the overhand right from smaller fighters.

    Even take Sonny Liston. He'd be able to jab with Fury, attack his body and put combinations together on him. He's also tough as ****. Got tools that Fury has never really faced. You'd have to make Fury the favourite but Liston could definitely give him problems imo.


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    #5662
    squinn2912
    Registered Users Posts: 4,679 ✭✭✭squinn2912


    Fury is my favourite at the moment but I don’t think comparing other eras is that useful or measurable. I can understand why he beats guys who he has 40lbs and 6 inches on but they’re from 50 years ago so the size of people has evolved a lot and the nature of professional sports is radically different.

    However, I just can’t resist this temptation so I’m going to say what I think would happen. For a start Lewis cuts him in two. Strong enough to bully him and won’t mind bending rules to get the shot off. Wallin gave him a nightmare ffs what would Lewis do to him? Tyson I say ko to Mike by round 4 and Fury wouldn’t have a rib kind left. Nightmare for him, no matter about all time I think a prime Povetkin could well do the same. Liston’s jab would cause problems but I think he’s too hittable. I think Bowe would beat him and Holyfield is 50-50 for me.

    I’m not going up the list any more because I’ll put myself in bad form. Wait. I think both Wlad and Vitali in their prime beat him. Hard, hard men.

    Fury is my favourite at the moment. He’s looked the real deal once against a very questionably able Wilder - that’s not the benchmark, guys. In the other Wilder fight he should have been counted out. Other than that there’s a finished champion and then the opponents are poor. He still has time to cement his legacy and good luck to him doing so.


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    #5663
    nacho libre
    Registered Users Posts: 16,637 ✭✭✭✭nacho libre


    I hope Dubois can come again, but i don't see him ever being at the top table. The fight at the weekend confirmed what I had long suspected.


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    #5664
    walshb
    Registered Users Posts: 54,594 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    nacho libre wrote: »
    I hope Dubois can come again, but i don't see him ever being at the top table. The fight at the weekend confirmed what I had long suspected.

    Yes..

    Funny, I think a fight like the other night might even make him less a fighter in the future...

    Even forgetting the other night. He is slow, and has a very poor defense...nowhere near the top!


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    #5665
    squinn2912
    Registered Users Posts: 4,679 ✭✭✭squinn2912


    walshb wrote: »
    Yes..

    Funny, I think a fight like the other night might even make him less a fighter in the future...

    Even forgetting the other night. He is slow, and has a very poor defense...nowhere near the top!

    Not sure lads I’m a bit torn on him. This could make or break him. If he learns from it then he’s so young he can surely come back. He knows now that attributes alone count for little without strategy. If he goes back to the drawing board and works on the frailties exposed by that fight then his attributes will always count for something when all things are even.

    But on the other hand when the bubble bursts it can be very hard to turn that tide. He could go like Price and just fight in a shell forever more. Anyone with ambition now is a good time to fight him when there’s doubt in his mind. I think he will be very brittle mentally both in the build up and in future fights so his next 3/4 days out need to be well picked and show some gradual improvement.

    Hard to know how he’ll go but into the background for a while anyhow.


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    #5666
    eagle eye
    Registered Users Posts: 37,512 ✭✭✭✭eagle eye


    He needs to go to somebody like Freddy Roach.


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    #5667
    The Nal
    Registered Users Posts: 12,454 ✭✭✭✭The Nal


    squinn2912 wrote: »
    Not sure lads I’m a bit torn on him. This could make or break him. If he learns from it then he’s so young he can surely come back. He knows now that attributes alone count for little without strategy. If he goes back to the drawing board and works on the frailties exposed by that fight then his attributes will always count for something when all things are even.

    But on the other hand when the bubble bursts it can be very hard to turn that tide. He could go like Price and just fight in a shell forever more. Anyone with ambition now is a good time to fight him when there’s doubt in his mind. I think he will be very brittle mentally both in the build up and in future fights so his next 3/4 days out need to be well picked and show some gradual improvement.

    Hard to know how he’ll go but into the background for a while anyhow.

    Aside from the odd flurry the other night, he was beaten up badly with the same jab that never had to even go past Joyces standing foot to land. Easy long range stuff. His defence was terrible and the less said about his head movement and footwork the better.

    Didn't really offer anything. Long road back.


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    #5668
    nacho libre
    Registered Users Posts: 16,637 ✭✭✭✭nacho libre


    eagle eye wrote: »
    He needs to go to somebody like Freddy Roach.

    He might improve him a bit, but Dubois simply does not possess the skills to be an elite fighter in my view.


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    #5669
    squinn2912
    Registered Users Posts: 4,679 ✭✭✭squinn2912


    This was the first active opponent and real fight that he’s had. He failed the test badly. It wasn’t just the eye that beat him. He hated the taste of a jab, he was exhausted looking as well. Fair few people seemed to have him up on the cards and I don’t really go with that. I had Joyce up by 2 before the stoppage/quit but Dubois’ ‘quality’ was having little to no effect on Joyce. Joyce’s work was having much more of an impact throughout and it was very obvious who was dictating the terms of the fight.

    At 23 I think it’s far too early to write him off so much. He’s still a capable operator and brings quite a bit of excitement. A knock over, English or regional title and then work up to European level, fighting one or two gatekeepers along the way. That takes him 3 years and so at 27/28 he’s at an age where he will have matured much more. The more you look at it the more foolish it was to put him in with Joyce at this stage. It was even more foolish not to pull him out. I don’t think his story is finished just yet though.


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    #5670
    US2
    Registered Users Posts: 2,651 ✭✭✭US2


    Miller banned for 2 years, he hardly failed another test ?


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    #5671
    OmegaGene
    Registered Users Posts: 8,640 ✭✭✭OmegaGene


    US2 wrote: »
    Miller banned for 2 years, he hardly failed another test ?

    His fourth positive in a year and he’s blaming impotence drugs now

    The internet isn’t for everyone



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