Fewer L plates on view?

SweetCaliber · 13-01-2019 7:37pm

Jagger Straight Raccoon wrote: »

It’s so long since I was asked for my license that I can’t really remember when it was but at a guess it’s about 8 years ago since I was last asked. I reckon in almost 17 years driving cars on the road I’ve been asked for my license maybe 6 or 7 times at most ever.

I go through checkpoints very very rarely maybe 3 a year and 95% of the ones I’ve gone through don’t even fully stop me just look at the discs as I edge up to them and then start waving me on. The only exception I can think of was where I was stopped at a MAT checkpoint about 5 years ago and breathylised but they still didn’t ask for my license.

I've only been asked for my license at MAT checkpoints, every one of them. The tax ones though, never.

BarryD2 · 14-01-2019 4:25pm

Plumbthedepths wrote: »

If the ad saves one life its worth it.

MascotDec85 wrote: »

The Clancy situation is another ballpark altogether imo.

Hard cases often make bad law. And that may well turn out to be the case here. If as I suspect learner drivers are now even more inclined to leave their L plates off, it may actually result in a greater number of accidents.

Will Minister Ross be around to answer for this in a few years? Will the RSA have new management then? I predict they'll be well able to wash their hands of it.

appledrop · 14-01-2019 4:27pm

This is exactly my worry. I'd always be more patient + keep distanced from L driver but now we won't know who most of them are.

dudara · 14-01-2019 4:33pm

The l-driver who deliberately takes off their plates is to blame here. Sorry folks if that’s not popular. They were not forced or driven to it by the law, they chose to do it in contravention of the law.

The law is clear, you need to do your lessons, you do not drive unaccompanied and you display your plates. This makes it safe for both the learner drivers and gives other drivers the warning they need to give space & time to the learner. By removing their plates, the learner is lying to everyone around them, potentially increasing the risk to other drivers.

I have sympathy for people who need to drive for work etc, I truly do, but we need to get rid of our old-fashioned attitude to driver training. If a learner is driving unaccompanied, then they take responsibility for that, and if they are driving someone else’s car, then that person is also accountable, unless they can prove otherwise.

antix80 · 14-01-2019 4:37pm

I was driving behind an absolute jackass a few days ago.. hesitating at junctions, breaking, slowing down ... It was only when I got right up to his bumper that I noticed he had an L plate out of view on the boot of his saloon rather than the window.

MascotDec85 · 14-01-2019 5:17pm

BarryD2 wrote: »

Hard cases often make bad law. And that may well turn out to be the case here. If as I suspect learner drivers are now even more inclined to leave their L plates off, it may actually result in a greater number of accidents.

Will Minister Ross be around to answer for this in a few years? Will the RSA have new management then? I predict they'll be well able to wash their hands of it.

The L plate being on or off isn’t the main issue. The main issue is learners not following the law and driving unaccompanied.

MascotDec85 · 14-01-2019 5:18pm

appledrop wrote: »

This is exactly my worry. I'd always be more patient + keep distanced from L driver but now we won't know who most of them are.

Here’s a novel idea, it might just catch on....be patient and keep your distance with everyone, learner or otherwise.

ayux4rj6zql2ph · 14-01-2019 5:23pm

MascotDec85 wrote: »

Here’s a novel idea, it might just catch on....be patient and keep your distance with everyone, learner or otherwise.

Aye, ‘‘tis called the 2 second rule in the dry 4 in the wet, not many know that though.

BarryD2 · 15-01-2019 1:29pm

dudara wrote: »

The l-driver who deliberately takes off their plates is to blame here. Sorry folks if that’s not popular.

It's not a question of popularity. Irish people have always cast a cold eye on matters of the law, a skeptical eye. If we perceive that legislation is appropriate, then it's broadly observed. If people think any part of legislation is impractical or unnecessary, then it's more inclined to be ignored. And particularly it'll be ignored if the chances of being caught are limited.

I understand why the RSA/ Minister Ross bring in ever tighter legislation. They subscribe to the idea that they must make continuous improvements in order to justify their remits. The danger with this approach though is that you end up disrupting the greater proportion of the population for the sake of catching the few, who often don't give a toss anyway about licences, tax, insurance or alcohol intake. The law of diminishing returns sets in and otherwise law abiding people come to consider the law an ass.

For the record and over three decades ago, I learnt to drive completely unaccompanied, no lessons - but I did display L plates then. Got lots of experience and passed the test readily. I look at many drivers now, many of who have had the whole remit of lessons and they can't even fecking reverse park a car properly.

MascotDec85 · 15-01-2019 1:37pm

BarryD2 wrote: »

It's not a question of popularity. Irish people have always cast a cold eye on matters of the law, a skeptical eye. If we perceive that legislation is appropriate, then it's broadly observed. If people think any part of legislation is impractical or unnecessary, then it's more inclined to be ignored. And particularly it'll be ignored if the chances of being caught are limited.

I understand why the RSA/ Minister Ross bring in ever tighter legislation. They subscribe to the idea that they must make continuous improvements in order to justify their remits. The danger with this approach though is that you end up disrupting the greater proportion of the population for the sake of catching the few, who often don't give a toss anyway about licences, tax, insurance or alcohol intake. The law of diminishing returns sets in and otherwise law abiding people come to consider the law an ass.

And there in lies the problem. What makes the Irish so different to any other culture that they feel it’s ok to pick and choose which laws they should adhere to?
When will learning to drive ever be taken seriously and all laws attached to the process be followed?
Using the UK as an example, very few learners would dream of driving unaccompanied until they’ve passed their test, it’s just not the done thing and there are also very rural parts of the UK too so that reasoning doesn’t wash with me.

At the end of the day, a learner only has a permit to learn how to drive, not a licence allowing them to drive freely.

BarryD2 · 15-01-2019 1:39pm

MascotDec85 wrote: »

And there in lies the problem. What makes the Irish so different to any other culture that they feel it’s ok to pick and choose which laws they should adhere to?

This I cannot answer you, but it is patently the case. In which case, our legislators should take this national trait into account.

MascotDec85 · 15-01-2019 3:42pm

BarryD2 wrote: »

This I cannot answer you, but it is patently the case. In which case, our legislators should take this national trait into account.

You do realize how absurd that sounds, don’t you?

Timmybauld · 15-01-2019 10:16pm

BarryD2 wrote: »

It's not a question of popularity. Irish people have always cast a cold eye on matters of the law, a sceptical eye. If we perceive that legislation is appropriate, then it's broadly observed. If people think any part of legislation is impractical or unnecessary, then it's more inclined to be ignored. And particularly it'll be ignored if the chances of being caught are limited.

I understand why the RSA/ Minister Ross bring in ever tighter legislation. They subscribe to the idea that they must make continuous improvements in order to justify their remits. The danger with this approach though is that you end up disrupting the greater proportion of the population for the sake of catching the few, who often don't give a toss anyway about licences, tax, insurance or alcohol intake. The law of diminishing returns sets in and otherwise law abiding people come to consider the law an ass.

For the record and over three decades ago, I learnt to drive completely unaccompanied, no lessons - but I did display L plates then. Got lots of experience and passed the test readily. I look at many drivers now, many of who have had the whole remit of lessons and they can't even fecking reverse park a car properly.

Broadly agree with you. In the Clancy case the L driver in question only had 9 of the 12 compulsory lessons done. In some of the other media highlighted L driver accidents like the St Anne's Park tragedy we are looking at drivers going at psychotic speeds in inappropriate areas. These are major incidents of piss taking and flouting of respect for the road. With people acting well outside the bounds of common sense and decency.

Much like legislation around drugs, I'm not a fan of involving the families of those who have suffered tragedies in making legislation. It leads to emotion over reason and the inability for people to contribute to the debate based on facts and logic. It's impossible to get a hearing in when confronted with someone who has been deeply traumatised. All respect due to the Clancy lad too, I really mean that - horrible horrible scenario.

As far as this amendment is concerned, it's a case of tarring all learners with one brush while the testing system remains an unaccountable joke with no record of what happens during it which leaves people doubting its validity while Shane Ross soaks up media glory. The process needs serious reform and investment in its infrastructure. The waiting lists are insane and crippling.

I'd like to see some sort of staggered or continuous assessment of Learner drivers, that really interrogates their ability to drive in all conditions rather than a bull**** jaunt around a Finglas housing estate and fifteen minute quick first impression of a nervous person.

Where have most accidents with learners happened? Do we have this information? The RSA could do with sorting out the lunatic speed limits on 90% of country roads too which seem to bear no relationship to the actual reality of some of them. I'm sure we've all come across these 80k on a boreen monstrosities that seem to have been set by someone on planet Mars that has never looked at the damn road. Is this because the state is trying to lie to itself about the quality of some of the road network while cutting back on funding?

I'm a learner driver and was pulled at a check point coming into Carlow today. Tax and insurance all grand. L plates up. He basically informed me about the amendment and let me on. I think I'd have been fecked had the plates been down. That'd just been totally pisstaking.

It seems a lot of the car seizures that are happening, much like accidents involving L drivers - are happening to people who are really really pushing the limits of the road. Like 172 kph on a midlands motorway. 115 kph on a 50k stretch. I mean, those are behaviours well outside the bounds of just being a learner driver and exhibit an almost heinous disregard for the safety of others. To put it simply down to them being learners is wrong.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/vehicles-being-driven-by-two-unaccompanied-learner-drivers-seized-1.3751221?mode=amp

Dravokivich · 15-01-2019 10:48pm

Emely Disgusting Galaxy wrote: »

Aye, ‘‘tis called the 2 second rule in the dry 4 in the wet, not many know that though.

The 2 second rule isn't much. You're hoping the person behind you is able to see something, understand it, decide what they need to do and react within half a second, so they have 1.5 seconds to complete the required tasks?

Sorry... I don't have that much faith in any one.

ayux4rj6zql2ph · 15-01-2019 10:59pm

Dravokivich wrote: »

The 2 second rule isn't much. You're hoping the person behind you is able to see something, understand it, decide what they need to do and react within half a second, so they have 1.5 seconds to complete the required tasks?

Sorry... I don't have that much faith in any one.

Not to complete the task, merely to keep the distance so one won’t be getting intimate with the rear of another vehicle.

Pretzill · 16-01-2019 12:35pm

I seem to be seeing N plates everywhere since I passed and exchanged the L for the N - I live rurally and I had to drive accompanied and I was able to thanks to a very dedicated sponsor who literally went everywhere with me, almost every day for 7 months. The first time I drove unaccompanied was still a little nerve-wracking even after being successfully tested and driven in a variety of conditions for months! I think people who are removing L plates and chancing it must have been failing the test repeatedly and still consider themselves capable - that doesn't make it right - You never know what you meet on the roads - be safe out there every day.

BarryD2 · 16-01-2019 3:31pm

MascotDec85 wrote: »

You do realize how absurd that sounds, don’t you?

Of course, but assuming you're Irish, you surely understand it

Fact is, there's a lot of legislation in this country that is routinely ignored when it suits by otherwise law abiding and respectable citizens. Maybe it's the same world over, I don't know.

Henry Ford III · 17-01-2019 12:07pm

Anyone who is driving solo on a learner permit and has removed their L plates deserves whatever punishment comes to them.

The is absolutely no justification for doing this.

ayux4rj6zql2ph · 17-01-2019 12:13pm

Henry Ford III wrote: »

Anyone who is driving solo on a learner permit and has removed their L plates deserves whatever punishment comes to them.

The is absolutely no justification for doing this.

this is just scandalous, no punishment would be severe enough i believe, even jail to this individual would be a holiday.

https://twitter.com/GardaTraffic/status/1085811896169701377

Henry Ford III · 17-01-2019 12:31pm

Emely Disgusting Galaxy wrote: »

this is just scandalous, no punishment would be severe enough i believe, even jail to this individual would be a holiday.

https://twitter.com/GardaTraffic/status/1085811896169701377

Whilst there's no mention of L plates (the subject matter here) that driver was well out of order on every other front, and we're all better off without someone like that driving on our roads.

ayux4rj6zql2ph · 17-01-2019 12:58pm

Henry Ford III wrote: »

Whilst there's no mention of L plates (the subject matter here) that driver was well out of order on every other front, and we're all better off without someone like that driving on our roads.

Yes indeed i agree 100%

If they were caught for pretty much everything else it would be safe to assume, despite no mention, that if the driver flouted so many laws that there was no displaying of L plates.

Sadly i fear the courts will take a lenient view in plea of mitigation.

i was just listening to criticism (again!) of the new legislation on local radio.

MissShihTzu · 17-01-2019 10:14pm

Judging by what I have seen in Cork the past few weeks since the law was changed, I don't think anyone will have any fear of the Gards taking unaccompanied L cars. Clearly, the law is not being enforced here!

This morning alone, I was driving along the South Link in the right hand lane, and wondered why I was only doing 50 on a 100kph road. Reason? Two L drivers hogging the right lane (clearly L drivers) in brand new cars and stubbornly refusing to pull in for traffic to travel faster in the right lane. Same thing coming down Summerhill North -traffic tailing back as there was a lady with L plates going at 35kph!! In all cases, the road conditions were good -dry and no ice. I know of one person learning, driving unaccompanied and does not have their L plates up.

Some unaccompanied learners are an absolute menace.

MascotDec85 · 18-01-2019 1:58am

BarryD2 wrote: »

Of course, but assuming you're Irish, you surely understand it

Fact is, there's a lot of legislation in this country that is routinely ignored when it suits by otherwise law abiding and respectable citizens. Maybe it's the same world over, I don't know.

I’m actually Scottish but I’ve lived here for 18 years. I can honestly say the attitude to learning to drive here is night and day to back home.

MissShihTzu · 18-01-2019 12:25pm

MascotDec85 wrote: »

I’m actually Scottish but I’ve lived here for 18 years. I can honestly say the attitude to learning to drive here is night and day to back home.

Bang on. I'm English, and share the same sense of astonishment at the attitude shown here. Driving is a privilege NOT a right. Of course, people will take a chance and drive alone on L plates. But if you're caught? Absolutely, the book will be thrown at you! In the UK, the law is enforced. It's not the same here. People here think it's perfectly all right that you can drive alone on L plates. How else are you to get experience? Here's a radical idea. Go out with an experienced driver or a driving instructor. Just like everybody else on this planet!!!

I'm also astonished that insurance companies here will happily insure an L driver knowing that 95% of the time they are driving unaccompanied, and don't raise an eyebrow! :eek: It's all about the money!! They don't give a sh1t...

Henry Ford III · 18-01-2019 3:48pm

MissShihTzu wrote: »

Judging by what I have seen in Cork the past few weeks since the law was changed, I don't think anyone will have any fear of the Gards taking unaccompanied L cars. Clearly, the law is not being enforced here!

This morning alone, I was driving along the South Link in the right hand lane, and wondered why I was only doing 50 on a 100kph road. Reason? Two L drivers hogging the right lane (clearly L drivers) in brand new cars and stubbornly refusing to pull in for traffic to travel faster in the right lane. Same thing coming down Summerhill North -traffic tailing back as there was a lady with L plates going at 35kph!! In all cases, the road conditions were good -dry and no ice. I know of one person learning, driving unaccompanied and does not have their L plates up.

Some unaccompanied learners are an absolute menace.

The law will be enforced. I've no doubt about that. The Clancy case happened in Co. Cork after all.

pawrick · 18-01-2019 3:58pm

BarryD2 wrote: »

I dunno but if I see a car with L plates, I'm inclined to give that bit more room and allowance. If Ross's law encourages more learner drivers to take the plates down, you'd think that's a bad thing. The old law of unintended consequences, though perhaps quite predictable in this instance.

On other hand, when daughter was learning we had L plates on a car, which I also drove. Mad to see how people would be in a hurry to get past you, even though you'd be tipping along at a good safe speed. So looked at that way, maybe they are a hazard as much as a benefit.

When I had L plates up on my car I noticed a marked increase in the number of people driving way too near in an attempt to position for overtakes, never had the same issue on weeks I took down the plates driving the same roads at the same speeds.
Weirdly the same happened when i used the smaller car with nimrods trying to overtake rather than be stuck behind a yaris. Personally I'd be like you and give people with an L a wide berth not to be stressing them out while they learn or too close to break if they make a mistake.

pawrick · 18-01-2019 4:01pm

I've always thought getting a full licence should be part of your secondary level education, it's a valuable skill which for most people will be needed at some point in their life.

ayux4rj6zql2ph · 18-01-2019 6:17pm

pawrick wrote: »

I've always thought getting a full licence should be part of your secondary level education, it's a valuable skill which for most people will be needed at some point in their life.

Especially when you consider that a 17 year old is eligible to apply for a theory test and all the jigs and reels that follow, this combined with the fact that 6th years range from 17-19 in the modern era.

It might be an incentive for many to stay in school also.

MissShihTzu · 19-01-2019 2:54am

Henry Ford III wrote: »

The law will be enforced. I've no doubt about that. The Clancy case happened in Co. Cork after all.

It did. I wish I shared your confidence. But the cynic in me says 'Not a hope!'. That would involve the Gards doing some work!

Fewer L plates on view?

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