DNA Analysis

paddysdream · 02-06-2020 3:45pm

spurious wrote: »

I know we have gone a little off topic here, but seriously considering giving Ancestry a miss once the current sub runs out. I think they are very overpriced for what they offer, it really annoys me that new subscribers can get deals whereas people with them for years can't, but the last straw is the completely ludicrous (wrong country/continent etc.) 'hints' they keep giving me.

They clearly send them to less discerning types too, who add huge swathes of my tree to theirs resulting in 72 and 8 year old mothers. I used to message such people to point out they had made a mistake, but was either ignored or abused.

Find the hint function very annoying.
Before I subscribed I wondered about all these seemingly "relevant" hints for my tree but when you actually look at them they are very much a scattergun approach and even at that some are so far out that whoever programmed it must really have been told to make it as vague as possible.

Only time I found it of any use is when someone uploads or updates a tree with perhaps a distant relative of mine.At least saves trawling through countless "John Murphy " and "Mary Byrne" born somewhere/sometime.

VirginiaB · 22-06-2020 3:25pm

A DNA haplogroup question please. My brother did his Y-DNA thru FamilyTree DNA. His haplogroup is R-P312, a sub-group of R-M269. Can anyone explain more about this? Is the sub-group common in Ireland? Does anyone know anything about either of these haplogroups? Thanks.

Ipso · 22-06-2020 3:51pm

VirginiaB wrote: »

A DNA haplogroup question please. My brother did his Y-DNA thru FamilyTree DNA. His haplogroup is R-P312, a sub-group of R-M269. Can anyone explain more about this? Is the sub-group common in Ireland? Does anyone know anything about either of these haplogroups? Thanks.

That’s still a pretty wide net. P312 can be broken i to three more subgroups: Df27 which is more common in Iberia, U152 which is common in Central Europe and L21 which is mostly found in Britain and Ireland. As he’s Irish i’d guess he‘s L21. This can then be broken into other groups, from what I understand these subgroups can correlate roughly to historic kingdoms and dynasties. His surname may give an indication but if the people he matches with have tested in more detail then most likely he would have the same result as them.

VirginiaB · 22-06-2020 4:14pm

That is very interesting info, Ipso, thanks. Ancestry's DNA ethnicity estimates show my brother as 96% Ireland-Scotland and me as 94%. That reflects the records I have researched thru to the early 1800s, as far as I have gotten. But we do have a great-grandfather from the north coast of Spain--Asturias. He is our father's father's father. And the line continues back in Asturias. So maybe that Iberian subgroup is the one. Asturias and Galicia are different in many ways from Spain south of the mountains, differently peopled, green and rainy. Still a strong Celtic influence.

Ipso · 22-06-2020 7:11pm

Within those subgroups I mentioned are more subgroups. I don’t think ancestry looks at Y haplogroups at any depth. To get better information he’d be better testing at Family Tree DNA.

VirginiaB · 22-06-2020 7:57pm

He did--mentioned that in first post. Ancestry only does autosomal. The data is from FamilyTree and I think Living DNA.

dubhthach · 24-06-2020 9:55pm

It's guarantee that his terminal SNP isn't just P312.

P312 arose in a single man probably some time in late Neolithic/Early Copper age. Nearly all R1b men in Ireland are P312+ (most are positive for it's major branch L21), the other major branch of R1b that you see is it's 'brother clade' U106. Which is mostly associated with surnames of more English origin in Ireland.

You mentioned that he tested at FTDNA, did he do a SNP bundle test to get to P312? In context of Ireland if he's P312+ and L21- then good probability he would test positive for DF27.

Back in 2013 Hammer had following map in a presentation, obviously 7 years is a long time, not only do we have better understanding of the phylogeny we also know that the idea of R1b arising in Anatolia is probably wrong given Ancient DNA evidence.

VirginiaB · 26-06-2020 4:06am

Thanks for this. I don't know any more than what I posted. He did Ancestry, FamilyTree & Living DNA. I appreciate the further explanation and map.

mindhorn · 12-09-2020 9:22am

Has anyone tried using the Leeds Method to organise your matches?

I only have 11 shared matches between my 2nd and 3rd cousins. I can identify the matches on my grandmother's side (maternal) and grandfather's side (paternal). But lacking matches on the other sides.

Out of curiosity I added 100 4th-6th cousins to the list and again they mostly fall in to the first two clusters. I have four colours and one colour just has three matches out of 111, which seems quite low but maybe this is normal.

pinkypinky · 12-09-2020 11:51am

I started trying to do it but it was a bit beyond me.

My Heritage does an auto-clustering thing for you which is similar (I think).

BottleOfSmoke · 12-09-2020 12:01pm

mindhorn wrote: »

Has anyone tried using the Leeds Method to organise your matches?

I only have 11 shared matches between my 2nd and 3rd cousins. I can identify the matches on my grandmother's side (maternal) and grandfather's side (paternal). But lacking matches on the other sides.

Out of curiosity I added 100 4th-6th cousins to the list and again they mostly fall in to the first two clusters. I have four colours and one colour just has three matches out of 111, which seems quite low but maybe this is normal.

I'm trying various ways to group matches. The problem I have is that a video I watched on the Leeds Method mentions working with matches between 90 to 400 cM. But I only have two matches in that range.

I've recently collaborated with a number of American Ancestry users, and was amazed to see their sheer volume of matches. Before Ancestry hid the lower matches, I had about 16 thousand matches in total - while they had 80+ thousands.

So I think the techniques have been developed based on a higher number of matches than non-Americans tend to have.

mindhorn · 12-09-2020 2:14pm

I forgot about the 400 cM which means I only have ten falling within that 90 cM to 400 cM range.

I've added the remaining matches from the 4th-6th cousin range and grouped them with the matches from the 2nd-3rd range. Not sure what I'm trying to achieve here but might narrow down the search a little bit and make me focus on those links initially.

pinkypinky · 12-09-2020 3:28pm

I went from 41000 to 13000 in the recent cull. The lower is still more than anyone could ever manage.

If I take the close matches as defined by Ancestry (4th cousins and closer), I have 300 people. 33/300 documented connections. A handful more I can place in the right part of my tree due to shared matches but have had no response. Of that 33, only 4 are below 40cM and most of them come from a non-Irish line with better records than we have.

Hermy · 12-09-2020 5:14pm

mindhorn wrote: »

Has anyone tried using the Leeds Method to organise your matches?

Thank you mindhorn for mentioning the Leeds Method - I hadn't heard of it before.

For too long I've struggled with my DNA results but the simple logic of this method has given me an insight that had evaded me till now.

mindhorn · 15-09-2020 9:17pm

Has anyone uploaded their results from an Ancestry test to FMP?

BottleOfSmoke · 15-09-2020 9:20pm

mindhorn wrote: »

Has anyone uploaded their results from an Ancestry test to FMP?

I think FindMyPast use Living DNA as the test company? I tend to forget they exist, they must have a much smaller database than the others. But primarily United Kingdom, so you may get lucky depending on your lines.

srmf5 · 15-09-2020 11:49pm

mindhorn wrote: »

Has anyone uploaded their results from an Ancestry test to FMP?

I have uploaded AncestryDNA results to Living DNA.

Hermy · 16-09-2020 8:53am

I've also uploaded to Living DNA but have only gotten four matches in the 3rd to 5th cousin range.

srmf5 · 16-09-2020 9:28pm

On Living DNA, I have one 2nd-4th cousin and 20 3rd-5th cousins.

mindhorn · 17-09-2020 2:16pm

No harm I guess in uploading the results there. Though I’m struggling to sign up to Living DNA as it doesn’t redirect me once I click on sign up (terms and conditions box is ticked). Might be just some temporary issue with the registration page.

Hermy · 18-09-2020 10:25pm

What are peoples experiences with 23 & Me?

I tested with Ancestry and then uploaded for free to GEDmatch, FT-DNA, My Heritage and Living DNA but would have to pay to use 23 & Me and I'm wondering is it worth it - am I likely to find many additional matches?

BottleOfSmoke · 18-09-2020 10:32pm

Hermy wrote: »

What are peoples experiences with 23 & Me?

I tested with Ancestry and then uploaded for free to GEDmatch, FT-DNA, My Heritage and Living DNA but would have to pay to use 23 & Me and I'm wondering is it worth it - am I likely to find many additional matches?

When I was starting my research as an adopted adult, I followed the advice to fish in every pond - do Ancestry, transfer where you can, and then pay for 23andMe.

Of course, you can get lucky with that single high match anywhere. The problem is that 23andMe doesn't have trees, like on Ancestry. People can enter a list of ancestral surnames, but that's not particularly helpful. You're relying on them replying to a message.

I would say - if you've got the disposable income and have a need for that extra possibility - then go for it, otherwise it might be nagging at you that you're missing out.

srmf5 · 21-09-2020 8:42pm

Hermy wrote: »

What are peoples experiences with 23 & Me?

I tested with Ancestry and then uploaded for free to GEDmatch, FT-DNA, My Heritage and Living DNA but would have to pay to use 23 & Me and I'm wondering is it worth it - am I likely to find many additional matches?

I agree with what BottleOfSmoke wrote. I have 12 confirmed matches. The closest ones are a second cousin once removed and a second cousin twice removed. The others are 3rd cousins once removed, 3rd cousins and 4th cousins.

My highest match who I share 114 cM with actually only has known ancestry from France, England and Hungary. Based on shared matches, our most recent common ancestor couldn't have been any further out than my 2x great grandparents who died in the 1920s since she matches people descended from both of their separate lines.

As has been said already, the major issue is that there are no trees. They can put in surnames but most don't. You have to rely on people replying. At least with Ancestry, you often get a good idea based on their tree without ever needing to get in contact. I'm mostly determining connections based on shared matches with 23andMe. The reason that I did test was to be in another database that might have people who only tested with 23andMe.

pinkypinky · 22-09-2020 10:11am

I tested a relative with 23andme so I could see who of relevance was in the database and learn how to use it properly in case I ever have a client with it.

There is a kind of a tree that they put in for you based on your matches, but it's all over the place. They've placed a confirmed and documented match (3rd cousin) on the wrong grandparent's line. Of course, it is possible this match also matches the other grandparent, but seems unlikely to be right. There's no way to correct it either (like wrong potential ancestors on Ancestry's Thrulines).

I've also found a lot of people don't respond and don't fill out the section with where their ancestors came from.

Furthermore, I've had some of the most unhelpful replies ever. Response to polite with some detail query about likely connection "no, I don't think so."

BottleOfSmoke · 22-09-2020 10:17am

pinkypinky wrote: »

I tested a relative with 23andme so I could see who of relevance was in the database and learn how to use it properly in case I ever have a client with it.

There is a kind of a tree that they put in for you based on your matches, but it's all over the place. They've placed a confirmed and documented match (3rd cousin) on the wrong grandparent's line. Of course, it is possible this match also matches the other grandparent, but seems unlikely to be right. There's no way to correct it either (like wrong potential ancestors on Ancestry's Thrulines).

I've also found a lot of people don't respond and don't fill out the section with where their ancestors came from.

Furthermore, I've had some of the most unhelpful replies ever. Response to polite with some detail query about likely connection "no, I don't think so."

About the response rates - my guess is that many do 23andMe for the health reports and aren't interested in genealogy. So I stopped messaging people who hadn't at least thrown a few names into the surname list.
Similar to people testing with Ancestry for the ethnicity reports, and not logging in again.

pinkypinky · 22-09-2020 11:00am

I still send messages - you never know!

mindhorn · 22-09-2020 11:38am

To be expected with Ancestry etc but still frustrating when you're confident of a link and have given the person some of the shared connections and where you think the link originates from and they just get back to you with a 'good luck with your search' type response.

Hermy · 22-09-2020 11:41am

I reckon we could devote an entire thread to the choice responses we've received over they years.

srmf5 · 22-09-2020 9:46pm

pinkypinky wrote: »

There is a kind of a tree that they put in for you based on your matches, but it's all over the place. They've placed a confirmed and documented match (3rd cousin) on the wrong grandparent's line. Of course, it is possible this match also matches the other grandparent, but seems unlikely to be right. There's no way to correct it either (like wrong potential ancestors on Ancestry's Thrulines).

You can actually edit the 23andMe Family Tree and add ancestors in 23andMe. It is possible to change the predicted position of a relative in the tree. I have correctly placed 11 DNA matches in the tree. My tree goes back to 3x great grandparents. 23andMe provided an update that allowed these edits to be made. However, matches can't see this tree so the tool is purely for yourself and doesn't help others to figure out how they might connect to you.

mindhorn · 29-09-2020 8:16pm

I uploaded my Ancestry DNA results to LivingDNA and that's given me an entirely new list of matches. However the top match is just 40 cM. Does anyone know if I will receive a notification if I get a reply from any message I've sent to a match? Don't see any messages tab like there is in Ancestry.

Also, where else should I upload my DNA to (for free, preferbly)? I haven't used GEDMatch (and guessing it's not a wise move to start using them now).

mindhorn · 29-09-2020 9:52pm

mindhorn wrote: »

Does anyone know if I will receive a notification if I get a reply from any message I've sent to a match? Don't see any messages tab like there is in Ancestry.

I've since received a reply and didn't get a notification, so it seems that you need to go back through the list of matches to check for any messages.

Edit: Actually, they send a delayed email notification to let you know there's a new message.

spurious · 29-09-2020 10:13pm

Why wouldn't you use GEDMatch?

mindhorn · 29-09-2020 10:17pm

Heard something about a data breach recently but haven't looked any further into it.

paddysdream · 30-09-2020 5:24pm

mindhorn wrote: »

I uploaded my Ancestry DNA results to LivingDNA and that's given me an entirely new list of matches. However the top match is just 40 cM. Does anyone know if I will receive a notification if I get a reply from any message I've sent to a match? Don't see any messages tab like there is in Ancestry.

Also, where else should I upload my DNA to (for free, preferbly)? I haven't used GEDMatch (and guessing it's not a wise move to start using them now).

After reading about it here decided to try My Living Dna .Uploaded my Ancestry test and got a few matches,one 3rd/4th cousin level and all the rest very distant.Does seem to be heavily UK biased but then again maybe that's me an my DNA matches.

Still find Ancestry the easiest to use and with the most relevant ie closest matches

mindhorn · 30-09-2020 6:41pm

The only reason I used LivingDNA was because I could upload my DNA for free through FMP. Don't think it's worth the fee otherwise.

In the meantime I uploaded my data from Ancestry to FTDNA and MyHeritage, and still waiting for the results from the latter.

Top result on FTDNA is 98 cM. Site doesn't seem to be user friendly when it comes to contacting your matches (appears that you can only email them?).

Also, I see there are a number of add ons on FTDNA. Is it worth splashing out on any of these? The Y-DNA12 test is $59 and then at the upper end of things there's the Big Y-700 test at $449 (!). I'm male by the way, hence looking at this test.

The mtDNA test is $159 and I see from the sticky that this appears to have limited value. Has anyone benefited from this test?

pinkypinky · 30-09-2020 9:11pm

Email is actually the best way to contact people - the messaging system on the other sites requires you to log in to read a message, which people might not bother to do. Email hits them more directly.

Have a search of the forum for lots of discussion on Y and MtDNA. If you have a particular patrilineal mystery, then Y DNA is useful but you need to do a minimum of Y111 realistically. I've done a couple of male relatives to Y37 and got nowhere, but it was as much about capturing the DNA for me. FTDNA keeps the sample for 25 years, so I'm playing a long game on the testing improving and the costs of upgrading getting cheaper.

spurious · 30-09-2020 11:35pm

I did the mtDNA with FTDNA in one of their sales. Didn't tell me anything useful really. Would need a lot more people to do it to get useful results.

KildareFan · 01-10-2020 11:07am

Thanks to the kind poster who drew my attention to the Leeds method of grouping DNA matches I have begun to make sense of some matches which didn't appear to make sense before.
My brother & I did the DNA test with Ancestry as did several of my second, third and fourth cousins - it helps to have access to DNA data for siblings and cousins as it helps to separate out different ancestral branches.
I combined matches on my brother's and my tree together, and added matches from known second and third cousins' DNA. I have now managed to allocate matches into previously underpopulated branches of the family tree.
One example is that I have a lot of information on my maternal great grandfather's ancestors, going back to the 1600s, but very little on his wife's ancestors. I have numerous matches loading on to my maternal great grandparents, however by comparing the 2nd/3rd cousin DNA matches who are descended from my maternal great father's siblings, I was able to separate out the matches which loaded on to my maternal great grandmother's line [complicated I know, but think of Venn Diagrams!].

BottleOfSmoke · 14-10-2020 10:29am

I uploaded my Ancestry results to FamilyTreeDNA (FTDNA) a few years ago. This thread reminded me to go back and take a look.

I have under two hundred DNA matches there. That seems really low. I know that Ancestry is the biggest company, but I even have several thousand on MyHeritage.

Would be interested if anyone else here could give their total there?

I'm actually wondering if I uploaded too long ago, and need to do it again.

spurious · 14-10-2020 10:48am

FamilyTreeDNA (tested 2016) - total matches 4585
My Russian partner who tested in 2017 has only 1347 matches, but then, very few 'Russian Russians' have tested.

I tested with FTDNA though, rather than uploading from elsewhere. The only other place I have uploaded is GEDMatch.

montgo · 14-10-2020 10:56am

FTDNA - I uploaded my results about 5 years ago and I have over 5,000 matches with 50 or so in the last 2 months.

BottleOfSmoke · 14-10-2020 1:02pm

Thank you, Spurious and Montgo. You've encouraged me to send a support request to FTDNA querying whether my results are in good order.

amadangomor · 14-10-2020 1:10pm

Have one match on my heritage that is from Sweden, very unusual as all other foreign matches are from countries Irish people emigrated to - UK, US, Aus, NZ.

Any one want to hazard a guess as to how this happened? Was thinking a relation that hooked up with a Swedish person in the states and moved back there

I assume any matches from here would be too far back?

From wiki "At the beginning of the seventeenth century about 6,000 men were shipped out of Ulster for the security of the plantation and sent to Sweden"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_military_diaspora

BottleOfSmoke · 14-10-2020 1:20pm

amadangomor wrote: »

Have one match on my heritage that is from Sweden, very unusual as all other foreign matches are from countries Irish people emigrated to - UK, US, Aus, NZ.

Any one want to hazard a guess as to how this happened? Was thinking a relation that hooked up with a Swedish person in the states and moved back there

I assume any matches from here would be too far back?

From wiki "At the beginning of the seventeenth century about 6,000 men were shipped out of Ulster for the security of the plantation and sent to Sweden"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_military_diaspora

You should get a clue from the centimorgans or percentage of DNA you share?

I mean, if its in the range of second cousin then you can rule out the more historic possibilities.

If it is down in the weeds of 8 cM, then you're talking many more generations back. It could also be a false positive (the lower the cM, the more likely to share by chance).

pinkypinky · 14-10-2020 2:16pm

BottleOfSmoke wrote: »

If it is down in the weeds of 8 cM

Immediately adopts phrase.

paddysdream · 14-10-2020 6:01pm

BottleOfSmoke wrote: »

I uploaded my Ancestry results to FamilyTreeDNA (FTDNA) a few years ago. This thread reminded me to go back and take a look.

I have under two hundred DNA matches there. That seems really low. I know that Ancestry is the biggest company, but I even have several thousand on MyHeritage.

Would be interested if anyone else here could give their total there?

I'm actually wondering if I uploaded too long ago, and need to do it again.

Done my test with Ancestry about 3/4 years ago I think.
Have 455 4th cousin or closer matches on Ancestry
18977 distant matches which is down to 7cm I think.
Big variance in DNA amounts shared with known 3rd/4th cousins even from same general family side.

Have 452 matches in total on FTDNA from 290 cM down to 13cM.Very few with any detail in trees and nothing new re. DNA relatives I could make any even possible connection to my tree.Very sparse info and very few replies to emails.Not subscribed so perhaps its better when you have access to all the tools or do a test with them.

Have 8492 on My Heritage with about 300/400 25cM or more which is a bit optimistic going by Ancestry result and looking at a few known relatives on it.Not subscribed either.

Have 3307matches on Gedmatch with approx. 20cM plus shared . Again trees are hit and miss.Awful lot of very distant matches.

My living DNA have 370 matches from 107 cM down to 9cM.Again just uploaded Ancestry test and not subscribed.No trees etc and message system a bit odd.

Find that some names appear over and over esp. those annoyingly elusive ones that seem to have no connection going by attached trees.

Find the shared match facility very useful on every site which at least allows you to narrow a match down to one or two different sides although in one parents case that can be a waste of time with the amount of inter generational marriage and being related to people 2/3/4 different ways.

BottleOfSmoke · 14-10-2020 7:06pm

paddysdream wrote: »

Done my test with Ancestry about 3/4 years ago I think.
Have 455 4th cousin or closer matches on Ancestry
18977 distant matches which is down to 7cm I think.
Big variance in DNA amounts shared with known 3rd/4th cousins even from same general family side.

Have 452 matches in total on FTDNA from 290 cM down to 13cM.Very few with any detail in trees and nothing new re. DNA relatives I could make any even possible connection to my tree.Very sparse info and very few replies to emails.Not subscribed so perhaps its better when you have access to all the tools or do a test with them.

Have 8492 on My Heritage with about 300/400 25cM or more which is a bit optimistic going by Ancestry result and looking at a few known relatives on it.Not subscribed either.

Have 3307matches on Gedmatch with approx. 20cM plus shared . Again trees are hit and miss.Awful lot of very distant matches.

My living DNA have 370 matches from 107 cM down to 9cM.Again just uploaded Ancestry test and not subscribed.No trees etc and message system a bit odd.

Find that some names appear over and over esp. those annoyingly elusive ones that seem to have no connection going by attached trees.

..

Thanks for the detailed reply! Your low-ish number for FamilyTreeDNA makes me think my paltry number is probably not a glitch in their system!

By the way - Ancestry matches go down to 8 cM now - they raised the threshold in August.

And LivingDNA have a "coming soon" message about having family trees on the site. Arriving in 2021, apparently. They have some relationship with the FindMyPast website, so it may be useful.

srmf5 · 14-10-2020 7:15pm

My mum's upload has 638 matches while my great aunt's upload has 3939 matches. My mum has no 5th cousin to remote matches while my great aunt does have 5th cousin to remote cousin matches. FTDNA gave me two possibilities for the large difference when I contacted them.

Depending on the version of the AncestryDNA file that was transferred for each person's results, the transfer results may or may not show more speculative Matches (5th to remote cousins). For example, I believe Ancestry's V2 version of their data results, when transferred to us, will not show any of these much more distant matches, as it is somewhat less compatible with our system so we leave those out. So, if someone transfers their V2 data to us, they will likely get much fewer matches than if they transfer a different version.

The second reason which applied to me:

These 2 kits, they were transferred about a year apart (March 22, 2018 and May 22, 2019). Within that time period, we at FamilyTreeDNA changed the way we interpret transferred data from AncestryDNA (even if they're both V2) once we upgraded to the new chip.

We started a process called imputation, which allows us to now give more speculative Matches (beyond 5th cousins) we weren't able to previously do. This explains the match differences between the 2 kits.

More info on imputation is explained here: https://dna-explained.com/2017/09/05/concepts-imputation/

I could delete my mum's results and re-upload them but I didn't bother because the extra matches likely wouldn't be useful.

mindhorn · 28-10-2020 9:55am

Do FTDNA or Ancestry tend to have deals around Black Friday? Looking at one of the Y-DNA tests and some kits for family members.

pinkypinky · 28-10-2020 10:14am

Yes. Keep an eye on Roberta Estes' blog for a good round-up. She's usually first with the deals.

If you've used FTDNA before, they will generally email their previous customers the offers.

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