Bike to Work scheme - the Megathread - Read post #1 before posting

sullzz · 05-11-2013 7:34pm

billyhead wrote: »

Is it being pulled across the civil service i.e other departments surely they cant bin the scheme in one department and then carry it on in another?

Not too sure , the girls in the dept weren't 100% sure if it is going to be axed , I would have thought they would know by now , I just told herself to go for it now rather than miss out on it , plus she won't have the deductions out of her salary throughout the year by paying for it in one payment , I understand what your saying , you would think that if it is being stopped in one section of the civil it would be stopped in them all ....... Mabey it will be :eek:

Cee-Jay-Cee · 05-11-2013 7:47pm

billyhead wrote: »

Is it being pulled across the civil service i.e other departments surely they cant bin the scheme in one department and then carry it on in another?

Haven't heard of any other state dept not running it next year.

I can't understand why various depts aren't running it as it costs them nothing other than to set up an additional payment to be taken from ones wages.

imonboard · 06-11-2013 11:23pm

I was hoping to buy from wiggle. What is the procedure for the public sector?
Thanks

CramCycle · 07-11-2013 1:33am

imonboard wrote: »

I was hoping to buy from wiggle. What is the procedure for the public sector?
Thanks

Depends what department you are in or where specifically you work, some areas don't do it at all (see a few posts back) some do it through B2W companies, others in conjunction with specific shops and others let you go through whoever you like. Long story short, it might be quicker to ask your payroll department.

seanin4711 · 07-11-2013 9:24am

Tax free bikes have wiggle in their books

imonboard · 07-11-2013 9:08pm

seanin4711 wrote: »

Tax free bikes have wiggle in their books

I don't see that on their site. Will the bike not cost more through them?

mardybumbum · 07-11-2013 9:22pm

Well I just picked up my new bike yesterday under the cycle to work scheme.

A specialized allez elite.
Also picked myself up a pearl izumi barrier jacket, a new abus lock and a front and rear light.
Going to get a helmet and pump at the weekend and may even splash out on one of those garmin's.

The only difficulty I am having with the bike at the moment is those god damn pedals that you snug your foot into (I know I'm not using the correct terminology here).

I see a lot of cycling on the horizon this weekend.

donal7 · 08-11-2013 8:58pm

Do Slane Cycles offer the BTW scheme on their bikes? Apologies if this has already been asked. Cheers

CramCycle · 08-11-2013 9:43pm

donal7 wrote: »

Do Slane Cycles offer the BTW scheme on their bikes? Apologies if this has already been asked. Cheers

All bike shops will, all they have to do is provide a quote as it is just a sale to them. Some will advertise that they offer it but they all do (unless they can't Provide a quote).

Beasty · 08-11-2013 10:30pm

It's your employer that determines if any restrictions will be placed on where the bike is purchased from. Some will only deal with certain suppliers, so you do need to check with your payroll/HR department whether they do impose any restrictions

CramCycle · 08-11-2013 10:42pm

Beasty wrote: »

It's your employer that determines if any restrictions will be placed on where the bike is purchased from.

Should have clarified that, if your employer says no to a certain shop then there is nothing that you can do.

G-Man · 26-11-2013 3:13pm

Hi,
My employer wants to make all cycle to work deduction - 1000 Eur from a single month i.e December.

I reckon this will mean not enough taxable income to get the benefit at the top rate whereas if this was a month earlier in the year It would balance out over the year.

Will my payslip be adjusted to give me a tax refund in the pay cheque, or will I effectively be only getting it at the low rate and have to ask for a balancing statement.

I tried asking my payroll people but they are busy with all the regular December and end of year stuff.

Now for a non related question, if I was to resign from my company and be self employed from Jan 1st, when I come to do the balancing statement for 2013 will revenue balk and say nah you are not in PAYE employment and therefore not honour the tax free benefit of the cycle to work.

le petit braquet · 26-11-2013 3:58pm

Payroll systems work on a cumulative basis so providing that your cumulative taxable income to December, less the 1,000 for the back to work scheme leaves you in the higher tax band, then your biketowork will be at the higher rate.

dogsears · 26-11-2013 4:01pm

G-Man wrote: »

Hi,
Now for a non related question, if I was to resign from my company and be self employed from Jan 1st, when I come to do the balancing statement for 2013 will revenue balk and say nah you are not in PAYE employment and therefore not honour the tax free benefit of the cycle to work.

No Revenue won't have a problem with you no longer being employed from Jan 14 so long as your salary sacrifice is fully complete, which it sounds like it will be.

Eglinton · 04-12-2013 5:41pm

I heard recently about Bike Shops passing on the fee they're charged by the broker or voucher processing companies. Has anyone heard of this? There's a brief mention of it on the 1st page of this thread but I can't find any more info on it. Figures of 10% of the purchase were mentioned. I can't see how this is fair. This is a deal between the bike shop and the broker. If they want to bake some of that in to the price, fine but 10% seems extortionate and I would assume is bending the tax rules a bit i.e. you're not really getting your full monies' worth of equipment but you are paying your tax on the full amount.

CramCycle · 04-12-2013 6:00pm

dogsears wrote: »

No Revenue won't have a problem with you no longer being employed from Jan 14 so long as your salary sacrifice is fully complete, which it sounds like it will be.

The company would take the remainder of the salary sacrafice out of your last paycheck if there was anything left anyway. The government don't care (in relation to the scheme) wether you retain your employment or not.

fran426ft · 04-12-2013 6:05pm

Eglinton wrote: »

I heard recently about Bike Shops passing on the fee they're charged by the broker or voucher processing companies. Has anyone heard of this? There's a brief mention of it on the 1st page of this thread but I can't find any more info on it. Figures of 10% of the purchase were mentioned. I can't see how this is fair. This is a deal between the bike shop and the broker. If they want to bake some of that in to the price, fine but 10% seems extortionate and I would assume is bending the tax rules a bit i.e. you're not really getting your full monies' worth of equipment but you are paying your tax on the full amount.

This cropped up for me earlier this week. My company uses Bikes4work.ie to get vouchers for the bike shops so they are only paying out to a single company and not multiple shops directly. I finally got my voucher now and wanted to get the LBS to order in a bike for me. The shop owner knocked €75 off the RRP of the bike but said that was the best he could do as One4All take 10% of the voucher value.

I was suprised by this as all over the Bikes4work.ie site it states "OUR SERVICE IS FREE OF CHARGE" :rolleyes:

10% = €100 for a voucher :eek:

TychoCaine · 04-12-2013 6:23pm

10% of a €1k transaction just for doing some paperwork that's probably 99% automated anyway seems poor value, but the employers don't care because someone else pays it. Thankfully my employer does it direct, so they just handed me a cheque. :-)

wicklowwonder · 09-12-2013 12:00pm

Just got a bike on the bike to work scheme. Wondering about insurance can anyone recommend a good bike insurance scheme?

Jabel · 09-12-2013 4:29pm

Hi all.
Can anyone tell me what the procedure is for changing jobs during the scheme?

CramCycle · 09-12-2013 4:42pm

Jabel wrote: »

Hi all.
Can anyone tell me what the procedure is for changing jobs during the scheme?

None, if there is any remaining payments to the company you work for now, they should take it as a lump sum out of your final paycheck and that is that.

doyler442 · 04-01-2014 2:06am

Hi

I'm looking to purchase a bike through the education department, and want to get it from the Canyon website but there seems to be a few issues:

- their Cycle To Work Scheme Application Form says bikes can only be purchased from certain providers but the link they give no longer works: http://www.opw.ie/en/OurBusinessUnits/GovernmentSuppliesAgency/Cycle-to-WorkScheme/. This means I've no idea where I can purchase a bike from.

- the form also seems slightly conflicting saying "Please ensure that the bank account is within the Republic of Ireland and will support the Electronic Money Transfer System." while also saying later "Where the supplier’s bank account is not based in the Republic of Ireland there may be an additional nominal fee to facilitate the payment to the supplier by the Electronic Money Transfer System, which will be included in the salary sacrifice figure.". So I'm assuming I can buy a bike from outside of Ireland but I'll be charged the transfer fee.

I'm finding this confusing, so just wondering if anyone can tell me if they managed to buy from the Canyon website through the educational department cycle to work scheme? And if not, does anyone know who I could contact to find out?

Cheers

robertxxx · 04-01-2014 2:09am

I got a bike about 2.5/3years ago, fully paid up, so now I'm in a new job can a get another bike (I think not) but could I ask my job for it.

TychoCaine · 04-01-2014 2:13am

robertxxx wrote: »

I got a bike about 2.5/3years ago, fully paid up, so now I'm in a new job can a get another bike (I think not) but could I ask my job for it.

No. You can only do it once every 5 years.

Walnutsink · 04-01-2014 2:20am

doyler442 wrote: »

Hi

I'm looking to purchase a bike through the education department, and want to get it from the Canyon website but there seems to be a few issues:

- their Cycle To Work Scheme Application Form says bikes can only be purchased from certain providers but the link they give no longer works: http://www.opw.ie/en/OurBusinessUnits/GovernmentSuppliesAgency/Cycle-to-WorkScheme/. This means I've no idea where I can purchase a bike from.

- the form also seems slightly conflicting saying "Please ensure that the bank account is within the Republic of Ireland and will support the Electronic Money Transfer System." while also saying later "Where the supplier’s bank account is not based in the Republic of Ireland there may be an additional nominal fee to facilitate the payment to the supplier by the Electronic Money Transfer System, which will be included in the salary sacrifice figure.". So I'm assuming I can buy a bike from outside of Ireland but I'll be charged the transfer fee.

I'm finding this confusing, so just wondering if anyone can tell me if they managed to buy from the Canyon website through the educational department cycle to work scheme? And if not, does anyone know who I could contact to find out?

Cheers

You could talk nicely to your local bike shop and see if they would buy it for you then you buy it from them. I started down this route but ended up getting a good deal on a similar spec bike with now waiting so I went for that.

Kaisr Sose · 04-01-2014 2:28am

@Doyler442
It's your HR / payroll section that you need to ask. I believe an Irish VAT would be required by Canyon but not 100% on that point.

CramCycle · 04-01-2014 9:02am

robertxxx wrote: »

I got a bike about 2.5/3years ago, fully paid up, so now I'm in a new job can a get another bike (I think not) but could I ask my job for it.

TychoCaine wrote: »

No. You can only do it once every 5 years.

I have done this and had no issues, there is discussion elsewhere in the forum/thread about this and the wording appears IMO to suggest once every five years per employment, ie new employment means an opportunity to use the scheme again. Probably not the intention of the scheme but that's my opinion on it.

Kaisr Sose wrote: »

@Doyler442
It's your HR / payroll section that you need to ask. I believe an Irish VAT would be required by Canyon but not 100% on that point.

You can buy the bike from anywhere your employer allows, so it does not always require Irish VAT eg buying from a small UK company.

Beasty · 04-01-2014 10:29am

CramCycle wrote: »

You can buy the bike from anywhere your employer allows, so it does not always require Irish VAT eg buying from a small UK company.

It depends on the VAT status of both the retailer and the employer:

Beasty wrote: »

Assuming the employer is registered for VAT in Ireland, and the bike is bought from an Irish retailer, the position is straightforward. The retailer charges 23% VAT, and the employer cannot claim it back. The same situation arises where the UK retailer is registered for Irish VAT (eg Wiggle)

If the employer is registered for VAT in Ireland and the bike is bought from a UK (or other non-Irish) retailer that is not registered for VAT in Ireland (which is often the case, the main exceptions being Wiggle and ChainReactionCycles), the employer should provide the retailer with its Irish VAT number. The retailer should then not charge any VAT. However the employer should then self-account for Irish VAT at 23%, and is unable to recover it. If the employer does not provide it's Irish VAT number, you end up paying both UK VAT (on the initial purchase) and Irish VAT (under the self-accounting system) - there is a procedure to recover the UK VAT paid but it is very messy and time-consuming, so it's better not to go there!

In all the above examples, the net position is that irrecoverable Irish VAT at 21% is suffered. It is perhaps important to note that if you are looking at prices with 20% UK VAT that come to just under €1,000, the extra 1% may bring you above the €1,000 threshhold. In this case, only the excess is a taxable benefit in kind.

The one situation where Irish VAT is not paid is where the employer is not registered for Irish VAT (not normally the case, but possible, particularly for low turnover or financial service companies). In this case the retailer charges UK VAT at 20%, but there is no mechanism for the employer to charge itself Irish VAT. Hence the VAT cost is 20% in this case.

doyler442 · 04-01-2014 1:13pm

Hi

Thanks for you replies - the employer in this case is the department of education, but as I mentioned they supply a link to a page that is suppose to contain the retailers that they support but that page no longer exists so its extremely annoying.

I just wanted to see if anyone in here had gone through the department when buying a bike from Canyon - I'll have a look round and see if I can figure something out and it might benefit others in the future.

Kaisr Sose · 04-01-2014 2:51pm

@CramCycle and Doyler442
Beasty is correct. (not sure CRC are IE VAT reg-they were not when I was looking to buy)
The issue of VAT and it's accounting is a massive deciding factor on whether an employer (semi-state) will allow a purchase from another country. My employer will permit it from anywhere, once they have an Irish VAT no., invoice in Euro and a tax clearance cert.
@Doyler-I had to chase HR for a definitive answer on CRC in 2013, so I think you need to do the same for Canyon.

TychoCaine · 04-01-2014 8:21pm

CramCycle wrote: »

I have done this and had no issues, there is discussion elsewhere in the forum/thread about this and the wording appears IMO to suggest once every five years per employment, ie new employment means an opportunity to use the scheme again. Probably not the intention of the scheme but that's my opinion on it.

No offence but the Revenue Commissioner's opinion is the one that counts. The wording is pretty clear. There's no mention of changing employer making any difference. There's no central registry of people who've used the scheme, so there's no easy way for your employer (or the tax man) to find out, but technically this is tax evasion with stiff penalties in the unlikely event you were caught by way of a future audit.

Beasty · 04-01-2014 10:33pm

TychoCaine wrote: »

The wording is pretty clear.

Well that depends on how you define "employee". If they had used the word individual (or taxpayer) I would agree, but an employee is defined by reference to an employment. Hence my own interpretation is it's once every 5 years per employment. An addional factor is that it's the employer that must operate the scheme but has no way of verifying one way or other if an employee has availed under a different employment. I actually believe the wording that was adopted (employee rather than individual) recognised this situation.

I acknowledge is not absolutely clearcut, ane the issue has been covered a number of times already in this thread with different individauls who I know to be tax experts expressing differing opinions

dogsears · 04-01-2014 11:43pm

Beasty wrote: »

Well that depends on how you define "employee". If they had used the word individual (or taxpayer) I would agree, but an employee is defined by reference to an employment. Hence my own interpretation is it's once every 5 years per employment. An addional factor is that it's the employer that must operate the scheme but has no way of verifying one way or other if an employee has availed under a different employment. I actually believe the wording that was adopted (employee rather than individual) recognised this situation.

I acknowledge is not absolutely clearcut, ane the issue has been covered a number of times already in this thread with different individauls who I know to be tax experts expressing differing opinions

Agree with all this. I have a few years experience in a former life with preparation and drafting of tax legislation (albeit in the UK) and would be amazed if specific attention was not paid to which word to use. And the reason suggested for why the ultimate decision was to go with the word "employee" is very plausible i.e. its exactly the kind of reason that would have been considered in trying to work out how to frame the scheme.

I can see good arguments the other way as well though and we may some day find out if the Revenue agree with it or not but at present based on the legislation this is a perfectly valid approach to take, and I don't think its remotely close to tax evasion to avail of it.

TychoCaine · 05-01-2014 1:20am

The wording is "employee", not "employee of company X". After you switch jobs you're still an employee, so there's a strong argument that the 5 year rule carries over to the new job. Also, it is tax evasion/fraud (on a small scale anyway), as you're under paying PAYE, PRSI, USC etc. by claiming a benefit you're not entitled to.

dogsears · 05-01-2014 3:33am

TychoCaine wrote: »

The wording is "employee", not "employee of company X". After you switch jobs you're still an employee.

Not necessarily. After you leave one job you could be self employed, out of work, employed in another country etc.

However, I do think there is quite a lot in the argument you make. For myself, I don't actually agree with the point made by CramCycle and Beasty for reasons that are, perhaps, too "inside baseball" for the thread, but that doesn't matter, I very much feel that its plausible and may well be right.

And

wrote:

Also, it is tax evasion/fraud (on a small scale anyway), as you're under paying PAYE, PRSI, USC etc. by claiming a benefit you're not entitled to.

No. Fraud involves deception. The point we're debating here is based on differing interpretations. Again, I feel this too much tax-nerd detail for the thread but its not a benefit you're "not entitled to" until that point becomes beyond doubt i.e. the kind of doubt well enunciated by Beasty and Cramcycle above.

wrote:

No offence but the Revenue Commissioner's opinion is the one that counts.

Its one, but its not the only one. (I'd be out of a job otherwise!!!:eek:)

CramCycle · 06-01-2014 10:44am

dogsears wrote: »

Its one, but its not the only one. (I'd be out of a job otherwise!!!:eek:)

I worked for a government department (temporarily), I fully disclosed it to them (that I had used the scheme before). I have said it before that it could be wrong, and if I am I will pay the monies owed. Deception or Fraud imply intent, i have been forthcoming, even though I did not have to be, with everyone, just in case ignorance was not an excuse.

BigDog101 · 08-01-2014 10:50pm

I've a question, couldn't find the answer through search. My missus has her eye on a new bike that she wants to get thru the BTW scheme, the thing is its a mens bike, she said it's a much better spec than the equivalent ladies one.
Anyone know if this is allowed in the scheme?

Cee-Jay-Cee · 08-01-2014 10:54pm

Yes thats no problem. I got my first bike on the BTW scheme but it wasn't the one I got an invoice for as I changed my mind after applying for the scheme through my work. The shop wont care, they will give you an invoice for whatever bike you want, it doesnt make any difference whether its a male/female bike so long as its a bike.

couerdelion · 08-01-2014 10:54pm

BigDog101 wrote: »

I've a question, couldn't find the answer through search. My missus has her eye on a new bike that she wants to get thru the BTW scheme, the thing is its a mens bike, she said it's a much better spec than the equivalent ladies one.
Anyone know if this is allowed in the scheme?

Yes, it's fine as long as it's for her use. She might want to get the shop to switch the saddle to a womens specific though when she buys.

BigDog101 · 08-01-2014 10:56pm

Great stuff, thanks for the quick replies

Salmonman · 13-01-2014 3:07pm

I bought a bike through the scheme back in 2009-10 and I am thinking of upgrading now to a carbon.
I'm i able to buy through scheme again or do I have to wait so many years before I can do so

ZiabR · 13-01-2014 3:39pm

Scheme is every 5 years if I remember right.

dogsears · 13-01-2014 5:35pm

Salmonman wrote: »

I bought a bike through the scheme back in 2009-10 and I am thinking of upgrading now to a carbon.
I'm i able to buy through scheme again or do I have to wait so many years before I can do so

If you bought in 09, you can go again from now. If you bought in 2010, you can't go again till Jan 15

mossym · 13-01-2014 9:04pm

dogsears wrote: »

If you bought in 09, you can go again from now. If you bought in 2010, you can't go again till Jan 15

Jan 2015 as opposed to 2 days time..:)

Mercian Pro · 13-01-2014 9:33pm

doyler442 wrote: »

Hi

Thanks for you replies - the employer in this case is the department of education, but as I mentioned they supply a link to a page that is suppose to contain the retailers that they support but that page no longer exists so its extremely annoying.

I just wanted to see if anyone in here had gone through the department when buying a bike from Canyon - I'll have a look round and see if I can figure something out and it might benefit others in the future.

For Civil Servants the OPW used to maintain the list of approved suppliers but their procurement section has moved to the Office of Government Procurement. http://www.procurement.ie/sites/default/files/bicycle_suppliers_1_-_30.12.13.pdf is where the list now resides. I see that Canyon, Ribble, Evans, Chainreaction and Planet X (Westmeath & Yorkshire) are all there together with hundreds of LBSs. If you go with Canyon I'd be interested to know how it works out as I am eyeing up the Ultimate CF SL 7.0.

king_of_inismac · 14-01-2014 11:16pm

How long do applications for the cycle to work scheme typically take in state bodies? I submitting an applications and invoice but haveyet to receive any reply.

Obviously it varies between organisations but is is typically weeks or.months?

dahat · 15-01-2014 1:34pm

I have decided to get a road bike after intially getting a Giant Roam 2 on my first use of the scheme a few years ago.

I will be using most of the grant to get a bike as i already have helmet etc but i was wondering about shoes. Would 1000 get me a bike for 3/4 years of good spec with decent shoes as i would rather try get them now as opposed to cycling around with runners on my flash new road bike.

Beasty · 15-01-2014 1:50pm

Shoes don't qualify under the scheme - see the first few posts in the thread for what does

TouchingVirus · 15-01-2014 1:54pm

Beasty wrote: »

Bike parts or frames do not qualify – it must be a complete bike plus the safety equipment identified above

Is it an option to purchase everything needed and build the bike yourself? I've got my eye on a particular frame (Surly LHT) and it would appear to make financial sense to buy online and build it myself. The pre-built models from Cycleways etc are coming in over budget.

Beasty · 15-01-2014 1:59pm

TouchingVirus wrote: »

Is it an option to purchase everything needed and build the bike yourself? I've got my eye on a particular frame (Surly LHT) and it would appear to make financial sense to buy online and build it myself. The pre-built models from Cycleways etc are coming in over budget.

No - must be bought as a complete bike

Bike to Work scheme - the Megathread - Read post #1 before posting

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