House/ancestry puzzle on reddit

shanew · 22-02-2014 10:55am

montgo wrote: »

Super sleuthing, Shane & co. Well done

actually more like - Scamallnaoi, ptegan and shanew et al.

shanew · 22-02-2014 3:52pm

combined from 1895 to 1943 street listing for a part of Beechfield street numbers 39 to 57, which is the section on the southern side of the street running east up to the junction with Edgar Street. Compiled from Belfast directories on Lennon Wylie & PRONI. Might help with memories of neighbours etc.. longer term residents highlighted.

shanew · 22-02-2014 10:53pm

not sure if this was mentioned on Reddit somewhere, so will post here for reference - a google search found the following post dated Oct 2010 on a website named irishabroad.com :

extract of the post :
'....Great grandmother Rose Ann Carson married my G. Grandfather (Horace Decker) in Detroit Michigan April 5 1893...She went back to Ireland for a visit with her family, she traveled with her Aunt Margaret Mullen......I have pictures of my grandmother her sisters Emily, Agnes and Margaret taken by the Reid Bros., Photographers Studio 81High Street and 114 Royal Av. Belfast and one of her brother John Carson taken at the Macfarland Bros 35 High st Belfast. I have a picture of the church she attended Catholtic Church Carrickmannon in Saintfield.....'

The post is by a Judy Tipton on the 20th October 2010, might be worth Tom and Co. trying to get in contact with her.. re possibly sharing the additional photos mentioned. .

see the full post here (shows an email address for Judy)

I'm working on a database of photographers and the current data shows Reid Brothers at 81 High Street, Belfast in 1881 and 1894 with Alexander. P. Reid & Archibald G. Reid shown as artists and photographers. I dont have a listing included at the moment for the other photographer address mentioned, but there is a William Abernethy Photographer at 29 & 35 High st., Belfast listed in 1894.

It seems that the Church at Carrickmannon may have been a chapel of ease for the RC parish of Saintfield, and located about 3 miles east of the town of Saintfield. See the church on Google Street View An RC chapel is shown at the same location on the 1st edition OSI maps c1837.

Ponster · 23-02-2014 3:36am

So all we had to do was Google "Rose Ann Carson" lol

The Yahoo e-mail address no longer works but I found Judy on Ancestry and have tried to get in contact there. Rose Ann is in about 6 different Decker public trees. I'm not sure if they all know each other but none have any info on Rose's siblings.

shanew · 23-02-2014 10:58am

Ponster wrote: »

So all we had to do was Google "Rose Ann Carson" lol
....

but our way was more fun!, plus we had to find the passenger lists to work out the dates and possible address for the photo. I think Hudson mentioned that the photo was the only one Tom had of Rose, but now seems possible that some more exist somewhere...

lludson · 23-02-2014 8:20pm

Hi guys. Got notice of your messages last night and posts, but have been tied up. This is cool. I did ask Tom and he just got back to me today. He thinks it might be a cousin his father might know. Her husband Richard also made this post at yahoo in 2006:

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20061203050003AAG9GBw

Will see if I can get in touch with them. Will maybe get Tom's dad's number. Like Shane says, it would be nice to connect more family and share photos.

Slainte!

Huds

lludson · 23-02-2014 8:28pm

I think this is them. I found a Judith Tipton in Coleman yesterday...

http://www.whitepages.com/name/Richard-D-Tipton-Sr/Coleman-MI/4ev3v5j

lludson · 23-02-2014 8:36pm

Judith A Decker was 4th generation from Horace based on the genealogy page we all started with...

http://familytreemaker.genealogy.com/users/m/a/r/Ellen-T-Martin/GENE17-0004.html

lludson · 24-02-2014 7:10pm

Just an update for you guys. I spoke with Judy Tipton this morning. She is the 1st cousin of Tom's Dad. And she knew all the information we dug up for Rose. She also has been very into genealogy and has a dearth of information on the family, including a lot of photos and documents (she has the passport and marriage documents for Rose). So it will be great to get Judy and Tom together with some immediate family to share the wealth of information and stories she has.

Most pertinent to Tom's trip is that she knows where Rose's parents are buried in Ireland, including a photo of the area with the tombstones marked. So perhaps once I get that I can forward it to Tom and he can go visit.

She is very excited to hear the first radio interview, and will be tuning in to The Mooney show this Wednesday. All of your amazing work and the attention it got on the net made this possible. There is a great grandmother still alive who remembers Rose. So needless to say, this has all been important.

One of the shocking things is that she has traced the family back to someone who was on the Mayflower. And Tom's wife also had a family member on that ship. If that isn't amazing, I don't know what is...

Thank you, everyone!

Hudson

Ponster · 24-02-2014 7:56pm

lludson wrote: »

And she knew all the information we dug up for Rose. She also has been very into genealogy and has a dearth of information on the family, including a lot of photos and documents (she has the passport and marriage documents for Rose).

Good news!

Usually there is always a family member that becomes responsible for family history, photos and documents. As Judy knew the address of the photographers it's clear that she has the original photograph and is most likely a great source of knowledge. We'll see if we can find out anything further for the show on Wednesday but I think that they have enough content to have people turn back in to hear the end of the story.

shanew · 24-02-2014 10:00pm

lludson wrote: »

..Most pertinent to Tom's trip is that she knows where Rose's parents are buried in Ireland, including a photo of the area with the tombstones marked. So perhaps once I get that I can forward it to Tom and he can go visit.
....

There's a cemetery beside the church at Carrickmannon. I can spot several Mullen and McMullen (maiden surname of Rose's mother) headstones from the road. The older headstones are not as easy to read and appear to be in the northern section, i.e. furthest from the Church.

see : http://goo.gl/DVMnro

lludson · 24-02-2014 11:04pm

shanew wrote: »

I've put together some notes on the key elements of this search, for reference. Apologies in advance for any errors or omissions, documenting this is still a work in progress..

see : Mystery Solved

This is a wonderful job. I am sending this to Tom, Judy & Co.

lludson · 24-02-2014 11:16pm

shanew wrote: »

There's a cemetery beside the church at Carrickmannon. I can spot several Mullen and McMullen (maiden surname of Rose's mother) headstones from the road. The older headstones are not as easy to read and appear to be in the northern section, i.e. furthest from the Church.

see : http://goo.gl/DVMnro

It seems like the place they would be. I have not yet received a photo from Judy to try to confirm. Judy said they were in 'Killkerran Cemetery'. And that is far from their hometown, down by Cork. They are not found in the directory there, either: http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=cr&CRid=2132827. And it makes no sense they would be there, unless there is another Killkerran Cemetery. Perhaps this parts of the mystery is solved by the church records...

lludson · 25-02-2014 12:14am

Ok, I called Judy. And I had the spelling wrong (I thought google corrected my attempt to the right place). It is Kilcairn Cemetery, printed on the photo, not written. But I can't find it anywhere. Still awaiting a photo from her. Should be soon.

lludson · 25-02-2014 1:43am

Ok, I found it. Judy sent me a photo. I have lined it up in photoshop with the image I found here: http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Carrickmannon_Roman_Catholic_Graveyard_-_geograph.org.uk_-_137195.jpg

Here is the Google street view of the cemetery. It is around the block to the East of the Carrickmannon church, on 74 Drumreagh Rd., just north of Kilcarn Rd.: http://goo.gl/QBdvn0

Below is a photo of how it looks now versus then. In the new photo on the left, the field of view is just to the right of the grave's headstone location, which is marked by an 'X'. But I can see it by zooming in on the street view.

Here lies Charles and Mary Carson.

lludson · 25-02-2014 2:11am

Here is a screenshot from the Google Streetview:

Ponster · 25-02-2014 4:14pm

lludson, it looks like our work here is done and you have now become a genealogy detective

lludson · 25-02-2014 5:10pm

Hah! I don't know about that. You guys have so many resources, and I have learned just a couple.

lludson · 25-02-2014 6:10pm

Ok, scamallnaoi pm'd me some new info on Reddit...

~~~~~~

Margaret's husband John died circa 1914. The 1911 census says Margaret had 13 children, 6 of whom were living. Rose's visit to Belfast coincided with a tragic period in the McGouran household. Margaret's second youngest son Alphonsus died in 1919., aged about 18. Her only living daughter Veronica died in early 1920, aged about 23. The deaths of Margaret and her son Henry (age 25) were registered at the end of the year. It seems likely that Rose knew her sister was in ill health and that is why she visited when she did.

I'm not sure what became of Margaret's son Patrick. Charles and Daniel immigrated to Rose in 1921. Their nearest relative in Ireland at the time was an aunt Bridget McBrien of 42 Mountpottinger Street (around the corner from Beechfield St). Charles and Daniel lived with Rose for a year after arriving. They returned to Ireland a few time in the 20s and 30s. Daniel had a family in Brooklyn NY and died there in 1961. Here is an overview of all of Margaret's children I was able to identify:

Agnes Jane 1882-1882 Down
Catherine 1885- before 1911 Belfast
John 1889- before 1911 Belfast
Charles 1890-after 1928
Patrick 1892-
Henry Joseph 1895-1920 Belfast
Veronica 1896 -1920 Belfast
Edward 1898-1901 Belfast
Alphonsus 1901-1919 Belfast
Daniel Patrick 1905-1961 NY

shrek512 · 25-02-2014 11:25pm

Tom here.

You people are amazing.

pedroeibar1 · 26-02-2014 12:19pm

lludson wrote: »

Margaret's second youngest son Alphonsus died in 1919., aged about 18. Her only living daughter Veronica died in early 1920, aged about 23.

Both young, I'd hazard a guess at them being victims of the 'Great Flu'.

Fascinating to follow this thread.

shanew · 26-02-2014 1:06pm

I had hoped to get some later details of Belfast street listings to narrow down dates for McGourans and Mallons, but haven't heard anything back yet so far - the more recent data can be less easy to access online.

Took a look at the locations mentioned and step back in time in case these have not been mentioned already : Saintfield is a town and civil parish, Carrickmannan townland is in Killinchy civil parish, Ballygowan townland is in Comber civil parish. Comber civil parish, which is to the north of and adjacent to both Saintfield and Killinchy civil parishes.

Lewis 1837

Saintfield (post-town & civil parish) -
Comber (Cumber) civil parish

Saintfield RC parish covered Saintfield and Killinchy civil parishes and I think most of Comber civil parish would have been covered by Newtownards RC parish, but the boundaries may not have followed the civil parishes exactly.

Griffith's Valuation took place in 1863 for this area and shows a few Carson and Mullen entries in the various civil parishes :
Carson

Killinchy cp : Patrick, John, James & Mary

James listed with a forge in Carrickmannan townland

Saintfield cp : James (x3), William (x2)
Comber cp : Robert, John, Thomas

John is listed with a house, forge and small plot of land (more like a garden), and located in Ballygowan townland - so poss. grand-father or uncle to Rose.

Mullen

Comber cp : James, Samuel (x2)
Killinchy cp : Daniel, Margaret, Bernard, Henry
Saintfield cp : Jane

lludson · 26-02-2014 5:13pm

Well, I enjoyed that show. How about you guys? I am so sure that Ponster is right about Joe and Briege (he made the connection and was in contact with RTE, or working with them at the least). I hope they are able to confirm the relation without a doubt. But I just know it's right...

shanew · 26-02-2014 8:23pm

I put McGouran details together in case these help with the connections :

The 1943 Belfast directory is not indexed by surname yet, but some googling got around that ..

268 Falls Rd, P. McGouran, inspector
168 Falls Rd, Dr. G. J. McGouran,
40 Merrion Street, John McGouran, labourer
13 Middlepath Street, J. McGouran, labourer
27 Bank St., Gerard McGouran, Printer, Stationer, Account Book Manufacturer
40 Comber Street, W.J. McGouran, labourer
6 Young's Row, Miss Sarah McGouran
151 Oldpark Road, Sacred Heart Church - Rev. McGouran, P.P.
49 Marmount Gardens, D.A. McGouran, civil servant
38 May Street Little, Mrs. McGouran
1a Glenview St, Sacred Heart Presbytery - Rev. McGouran, P.P.
14 Chemical Street, John McGouran, crane man

and some will calendar entries from PRONI, including some the above and also some with some very familar addresses :

McGouran William John of 40 Comber Street Belfast labourer died 20 December 1935 Probate Belfast 16 March to Mary McGouran the widow. Effects £7 10s.
Probate of the Will of William McGouran late of Carrickmannon County Down Farmer who died 22 September 1909 granted at Belfast to William John McGouran Coal Porter.
McGouran Mary of Carrickmannon Ballygowan county Down spinster died 20 March 1935 Administration Belfast 6 April to Sarah McGouran spinster. Effects £60 4s. 3d.
McGouran Margaret of 38 Little May Street Belfast widow died 26 January 1943 Probate Belfast 18 October to Agnes McGouran spinster. Effects £291 13s. 8d.
McGouran Joseph of 1A Cavendish Square Belfast retired insurance superintendent died 3 May 1943 at Carrickmannon county Down Probate Belfast 11 August to Patrick McGouran and Patrick McGouran parish priests. Effects £415 12s. 11d.
McGouran John of Loughriescouse Newtownards county Down farmer died 14 March 1931 at Downpatrick in said county Administration Belfast 1 June to Hugh McGouran farmer. Effects £44 4s. 8d.
McGouran James of Carrickmannon county Down farmer died 10 July 1927 Probate Belfast 3 August to Joseph McGouran insurance superintendent and Sarah McGouran spinster. Effects £60
McGouran Hugh of Loughries Newtownards county Down farmer died 4 August 1938 at The Ards District Hospital Newtownards Administration Belfast 14 December to Susanna Wallace McGouran the widow. Effects £615 15s.

shanew · 05-03-2014 1:52pm

some later Belfast directory details, thanks to Mary (LennonWylie website) :

1912 - 51 Beechfield Street, John McGouran, John, labourer

1917 to 1919 - 51 Beechfield Street, Mrs. Maggie McGouran,

next directory is 1923 and a Wm. Fullerton, porter is at 51.

shanew · 18-08-2014 3:44pm

if Tom or Hudson are still monitoring this topic can you get in touch by pm ?

A possible Decker cousin spotted the house search topic and got in touch, I have a name and email address

Ponster · 18-08-2014 3:57pm

I'll see if I can drag up a contact e-mail via 2FM researchers.

lludson · 19-09-2019 5:55pm

I have posted an update to this story on reddit:

https://www.reddit.com/r/ireland/comments/d6gu7h/a_story_of_irish_roots_best_friends_betrayaland/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x

lludson · 19-09-2019 6:01pm

I have posted it to r/ireland on reddit.
https://www.reddit.com/r/ireland/comments/d6gu7h/a_story_of_irish_roots_best_friends_betrayaland/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x

Thank you to Shanew and Ponster, again. It is sad it worked out this way.

lludson · 19-09-2019 7:34pm

...

House/ancestry puzzle on reddit

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