House/ancestry puzzle on reddit

pinkypinky

Surely a job for our Shane?

http://thedailyedge.thejournal.ie/find-this-dublin-house-reddit-1322678-Feb2014/

shanew

could be totally wrong, it's a common Dublin house design, but think I may have looked in to this before somewhere - if memory serves it was near a fire station ?

Ponster

I thought of shanew also when I saw the thread but reckoned that I'd just do it myself

Rose Ann, when she travelled back to Ireland in 1920 when the photo was taken put her place of birth down as Sanfield, Ireland. I found her marriage cert which named her folks as Charles Carson and Mary Mullen. The only match on record was a Charles and Mary (Mullen) Carson living in Saintfield, Co. Down. Based on everyone's ages I believe that I have the right family but this doesn't help find the location of the house.

My guess is that Rose was from Co. Down but had perhaps lived in Dublin or was visiting a sibling there, making it difficult with online records to locate the place.

Here's the reddit thread. I'd be happy if someone could find a flaw with my theory

shanew

I think tracing family would be the way to do this with any certainly, not enough detail in the photo to be distinctive - if the poster puts a a better scan with a visible number might be more clues. There were, and still are too many houses like that, not only in Dublin, but also in other cities and large towns. I did a quick sample of the Carson surname in a mid 1910s Thom's and of the addresses which still existed about 4 of the addresses looked very similar.. a terrace with two windows upstairs slightly offset over a door and window below.

and that's assuming these relations were Carson and not link through a sister or cousin etc..

shanew

probably a long shot with the current details available, but just in case ...

attached - an enlarged version of the photo and the Carson households listed for 1921 in Thom's - so close to the date of Rose Ann's trip.




and just the people :


would the child be age about 1 ?

if so the only Carson child I can see born around the right time in the two city districts is a Christopher Carson in Dublin south during January/March quarter 1919...

Hermy

Rose Ann turns up on a number of family trees on Ancestry.
One lists her parents as John Carson and Mary Ann Mullen.
Most list her birth as October 31st 1864 in Sanfield, Northern Ireland.
Her marriage to Horace Decker in 1893 followed the death of his first wife in 1890.

Jellybaby1

What a puzzle! This is just fascinating. I would also agree that records of the people would be the best way rather than using the photograph alone. If you could nail down the address by using the records then bring the photograph off to the specific street for a photo-fit! Hopefully its still standing. Good luck guys.

shanew

I'll post these note here in case anyone finds anything to try following up...

key quotes from original reddit thread :

Rose's marriage certificate says her parents were Charles Carson and Mary Mullen.
.....
She applied for a passport to visit Ireland on June 26th 1920. The application says she
was born in "Sanfield, Ireland" on October 31st 1864. Her passport was issued on July 3rd.
She departed Liverpool for Quebec on October 20th 1920.
....
the passport application said she intended to leave via NY on July 20th.

and from some key details based on clues posted on the thread by ptegan, scamallnaoi et al..

The presumption is that "Sanfield" is a misinterpretation of Saintfield which is east of Lisburn.
1901 census likely parents for Rose living and Ballygowan townland, Co. Down, Newtownards Reg. district, and at same address in 1911. They list that they are married 53 years, so c1858, and had 10 children, 7 of which are living. Two of the children are single and at home on the returns - Edward and Agnes.

Carson household Ballygowan 1901
Carson household Ballygowan 1911

Dont see probate entry for Charles at PRONI

children based on mix of RootsIreland & Extracted
(marr Charles & Mary c1858)
Mary Jane bapt 1859
(gap for Rose?)
William bapt 1863
Margaret 21 May 1864
Charles 25 Dec 1866
Emily 16 Jun 1868
John 29 Nov 1871
Henry 25 Jan 1874
Edward 19 Jun 1876
Agnes Maria 23 Feb 1879

a few gaps and 1 of the 10 born to the couple missing

shanew

one detail more for now...

An entry in Valuation book AL/12/B/23/3F (1921 - 1929) shows a transfer of plot 11bb consisting of house, and abt 15 acres of land, in Ballygowan townland, Comber civil parish from Charles Carson to Edward Carson possibly during 1921 - red ink.

at least gives a rough date limit for Charles, and probably rules Edward out as the Dublin connection

and a probable UK incoming 18 Aug 1920 passenger list on Anc* for the 'Empress of France' arriving Liverpool from Quebec at shows a Rose Decker age 54 and a Margaret Mullen (relation on mother's side ?) age 70. Both give intended address as 51 Beachfield Belfast.

wonder what that house looks like?

shanew

I think the house might be the one at Beechfield Street Belfast....

1918 directory
Beechfield Street
Mountpottinger Road to Templemore Avenue
Pottinger Ward, East Par. Div.

51. McGouran, Mrs. Maggie

wonder if Maggie might be Rose's sister...


Mc McGouran houusehold - 1911

13 children 6 alive John & Marg marr 29 years so c1882
RC, all born Co. Down except Alphonsun born 'Belfast City'

didn't find 51 on building return yet, but at least some of the houses have 4 or 5 rooms and 3 windows in front...

EDIT : ha!!! - see google street view below - it's a very good match. I think the bay windows were added later. Some of the houses on the street dont have them.
I'm not going to bother counting bricks...!

Ponster

That just has to be the house. The details are just too similar for it not to be the same place.

I'll see what I can dig up on Mrs. Maggie McGouran.

BTW I've PMd the OP on reddit with this thread but it may be worth making your own post over there shanew.

Ponster

Irishroots has a record of a 1881 marriage between Margaret Carson and a McGouran in Co. Down.

shanew

Ponster wrote: »

That just has to be the house. The details are just too similar for it not to be the same place.

I'll see what I can dig up on Mrs. Maggie McGouran.

BTW I've PMd the OP on reddit with this thread but it may be worth making your own post over there shanew.

thx - I've replied on there, with a link to here.

shanew

Ponster wrote: »

Irishroots has a record of a 1881 marriage between Margaret Carson and a McGouran in Co. Down.

even better, I had a quick search for that - thought it might be her sister

everything screamed Co. Down... should have trusted that instinct earlier

shanew

forgot to post a Street View link in case anyone wants to browse... http://goo.gl/K7YDqQ

lludson

Just registered to thank everyone who has helped out. This is without question the house, even without the address from the passport application. I have PM's going on Reddit to make sure we split up the reward properly. You deserve it so much and I wish I had more to give.

I might have to employ you guys to follow my own roots! I was in Ireland two years ago, to visit my cousin who my friend is traveling with. She and her mom (my grandmother's niece) took me to my grandmother's place of birth in the countryside close to Cavan, where her house used to be, and to the mailbox she used to walk through fields to - still standing. To her school as well. All so astounding and emotional for me. We lost her in 1994. I need to go back, and go deeper.....

You live in an incredible place, and are just amazing, wonderful people....

If you don't know from the Reddit thread, my friend and cousin are to be interviewed tomorrow on RTE's The Mooney Show at 3-4pm your time. People from Reddit were hammering news outlets to pick up this story. And I am sending them news that this house has been found. I will be linking them to this forum and the Daily Edge website.

So many thanks,

Hudson

Ponster

lludson wrote: »

You live in an incredible place, and are just amazing, wonderful people....

Ah now....To be honest we're just a bunch of people with access to genealogy sites and excellent Google skills

As I said on Reddit, I'll write up a little outline of how we got to where we did, including of course all those on reddit who are not here but helped a lot.

The money is very generous but personally I would have paid you for the pleasure of the chase

lludson

Is there an upvote button somewhere?

Ponster

shanew wrote: »

even better, I had a quick search for that - thought it might be her sister

everything screamed Co. Down... should have trusted that instinct earlier

Yep. From the start I knew I had to ignore the mentions of Dublin in the OP on Reddit and then Co. Down started to appear all over the place. This was one of those "staring you in the face" searches

shanew

link to various N.I. directories in case these haven't been mentioned elsewhere :

Street directories - PRONI covering 1819-1900
Lennon Wylie excellent collection of directory transcriptions including the 1918 listing mentioned above.

p.s. the 1913 Telephone Directory on the LennonWylie site includes listings for Dublin & Cork

pinkypinky

Well done everyone! So proud of you. I'm only sorry I didn't have time to help on this one.

MugMugs

Well you've made The Daily Edge lads !


Well done !

KildareFan

pinkypinky wrote: »

Well done everyone! So proud of you. I'm only sorry I didn't have time to help on this one.

Sorry I missed out on this - it was all sorted when I logged on this morning.

Wyldwood

Great piece of detective work! Congratulations everyone. Followed the thread yesterday.

HoJOs

great detective work chaps! if you zoom in on the new bay window, upper left corner, you can still see part of the vent that appears in the original photo

lludson

Hi everyone. Shanew, I need you to PM me your Paypal for your reward. Same for Ponster. You guys were incredible.

Hope some of you were able to tune into The Money Show in the last hour. The interview was great. My friend Tom did so well, as did Ponster, who called in.

And it's not over yet. They were able to visit the address and leave a note on the door a few hours ago with the RTE's phone number. He ended up coming home to it and called in. They are doing another show when Tom and Camilla get to Belfast on Wednesday at 3pm. The person who lives there has welcomed Tom in for tea. And it will be broadcast.

Just amazing. Thank you, everyone.

Hudson

Boards.ie: Niamh

For anyone who missed it, the show can be replayed here. Today's episode is not up just yet but I'm sure it will be available later today or some time tomorrow - you can choose the "Search for a Special House" on the menu on the right under today's date

Menas

Fantastic work folks, well done!!

shanew

I've put together some notes on the key elements of this search, for reference. Apologies in advance for any errors or omissions, documenting this is still a work in progress..

see : Mystery Solved

montgo

Super sleuthing, Shane & co. Well done

Jellybaby1

This was a lot of fun to watch. I knew the skills were on here, I just watched until it was cracked. Well done everyone. I wish I had your skill.

shanew

montgo wrote: »

Super sleuthing, Shane & co. Well done

actually more like - Scamallnaoi, ptegan and shanew et al.

shanew

combined from 1895 to 1943 street listing for a part of Beechfield street numbers 39 to 57, which is the section on the southern side of the street running east up to the junction with Edgar Street. Compiled from Belfast directories on Lennon Wylie & PRONI. Might help with memories of neighbours etc.. longer term residents highlighted.

shanew

not sure if this was mentioned on Reddit somewhere, so will post here for reference - a google search found the following post dated Oct 2010 on a website named irishabroad.com :

extract of the post :
'....Great grandmother Rose Ann Carson married my G. Grandfather (Horace Decker) in Detroit Michigan April 5 1893...She went back to Ireland for a visit with her family, she traveled with her Aunt Margaret Mullen......I have pictures of my grandmother her sisters Emily, Agnes and Margaret taken by the Reid Bros., Photographers Studio 81High Street and 114 Royal Av. Belfast and one of her brother John Carson taken at the Macfarland Bros 35 High st Belfast. I have a picture of the church she attended Catholtic Church Carrickmannon in Saintfield.....'

The post is by a Judy Tipton on the 20th October 2010, might be worth Tom and Co. trying to get in contact with her.. re possibly sharing the additional photos mentioned. .

see the full post here (shows an email address for Judy)

I'm working on a database of photographers and the current data shows Reid Brothers at 81 High Street, Belfast in 1881 and 1894 with Alexander. P. Reid & Archibald G. Reid shown as artists and photographers. I dont have a listing included at the moment for the other photographer address mentioned, but there is a William Abernethy Photographer at 29 & 35 High st., Belfast listed in 1894.

It seems that the Church at Carrickmannon may have been a chapel of ease for the RC parish of Saintfield, and located about 3 miles east of the town of Saintfield. See the church on Google Street View An RC chapel is shown at the same location on the 1st edition OSI maps c1837.

Ponster

So all we had to do was Google "Rose Ann Carson" lol

The Yahoo e-mail address no longer works but I found Judy on Ancestry and have tried to get in contact there. Rose Ann is in about 6 different Decker public trees. I'm not sure if they all know each other but none have any info on Rose's siblings.

shanew

Ponster wrote: »

So all we had to do was Google "Rose Ann Carson" lol
....

but our way was more fun!, plus we had to find the passenger lists to work out the dates and possible address for the photo. I think Hudson mentioned that the photo was the only one Tom had of Rose, but now seems possible that some more exist somewhere...

lludson

Hi guys. Got notice of your messages last night and posts, but have been tied up. This is cool. I did ask Tom and he just got back to me today. He thinks it might be a cousin his father might know. Her husband Richard also made this post at yahoo in 2006:

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20061203050003AAG9GBw

Will see if I can get in touch with them. Will maybe get Tom's dad's number. Like Shane says, it would be nice to connect more family and share photos.

Slainte!

Huds

lludson

I think this is them. I found a Judith Tipton in Coleman yesterday...

http://www.whitepages.com/name/Richard-D-Tipton-Sr/Coleman-MI/4ev3v5j

lludson

Judith A Decker was 4th generation from Horace based on the genealogy page we all started with...

http://familytreemaker.genealogy.com/users/m/a/r/Ellen-T-Martin/GENE17-0004.html

lludson

Just an update for you guys. I spoke with Judy Tipton this morning. She is the 1st cousin of Tom's Dad. And she knew all the information we dug up for Rose. She also has been very into genealogy and has a dearth of information on the family, including a lot of photos and documents (she has the passport and marriage documents for Rose). So it will be great to get Judy and Tom together with some immediate family to share the wealth of information and stories she has.

Most pertinent to Tom's trip is that she knows where Rose's parents are buried in Ireland, including a photo of the area with the tombstones marked. So perhaps once I get that I can forward it to Tom and he can go visit.

She is very excited to hear the first radio interview, and will be tuning in to The Mooney show this Wednesday. All of your amazing work and the attention it got on the net made this possible. There is a great grandmother still alive who remembers Rose. So needless to say, this has all been important.

One of the shocking things is that she has traced the family back to someone who was on the Mayflower. And Tom's wife also had a family member on that ship. If that isn't amazing, I don't know what is...

Thank you, everyone!

Hudson

Ponster

lludson wrote: »

And she knew all the information we dug up for Rose. She also has been very into genealogy and has a dearth of information on the family, including a lot of photos and documents (she has the passport and marriage documents for Rose).

Good news!

Usually there is always a family member that becomes responsible for family history, photos and documents. As Judy knew the address of the photographers it's clear that she has the original photograph and is most likely a great source of knowledge. We'll see if we can find out anything further for the show on Wednesday but I think that they have enough content to have people turn back in to hear the end of the story.

shanew

lludson wrote: »

..Most pertinent to Tom's trip is that she knows where Rose's parents are buried in Ireland, including a photo of the area with the tombstones marked. So perhaps once I get that I can forward it to Tom and he can go visit.
....

There's a cemetery beside the church at Carrickmannon. I can spot several Mullen and McMullen (maiden surname of Rose's mother) headstones from the road. The older headstones are not as easy to read and appear to be in the northern section, i.e. furthest from the Church.

see : http://goo.gl/DVMnro

lludson

shanew wrote: »

I've put together some notes on the key elements of this search, for reference. Apologies in advance for any errors or omissions, documenting this is still a work in progress..

see : Mystery Solved

This is a wonderful job. I am sending this to Tom, Judy & Co.

lludson

shanew wrote: »

There's a cemetery beside the church at Carrickmannon. I can spot several Mullen and McMullen (maiden surname of Rose's mother) headstones from the road. The older headstones are not as easy to read and appear to be in the northern section, i.e. furthest from the Church.

see : http://goo.gl/DVMnro

It seems like the place they would be. I have not yet received a photo from Judy to try to confirm. Judy said they were in 'Killkerran Cemetery'. And that is far from their hometown, down by Cork. They are not found in the directory there, either: http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=cr&CRid=2132827. And it makes no sense they would be there, unless there is another Killkerran Cemetery. Perhaps this parts of the mystery is solved by the church records...

lludson

Ok, I called Judy. And I had the spelling wrong (I thought google corrected my attempt to the right place). It is Kilcairn Cemetery, printed on the photo, not written. But I can't find it anywhere. Still awaiting a photo from her. Should be soon.

lludson

Ok, I found it. Judy sent me a photo. I have lined it up in photoshop with the image I found here: http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Carrickmannon_Roman_Catholic_Graveyard_-_geograph.org.uk_-_137195.jpg


Here is the Google street view of the cemetery. It is around the block to the East of the Carrickmannon church, on 74 Drumreagh Rd., just north of Kilcarn Rd.: http://goo.gl/QBdvn0

Below is a photo of how it looks now versus then. In the new photo on the left, the field of view is just to the right of the grave's headstone location, which is marked by an 'X'. But I can see it by zooming in on the street view.


Here lies Charles and Mary Carson.

lludson

Here is a screenshot from the Google Streetview:

Ponster

lludson, it looks like our work here is done and you have now become a genealogy detective

lludson

Hah! I don't know about that. You guys have so many resources, and I have learned just a couple.

lludson

Ok, scamallnaoi pm'd me some new info on Reddit...

~~~~~~

Margaret's husband John died circa 1914. The 1911 census says Margaret had 13 children, 6 of whom were living. Rose's visit to Belfast coincided with a tragic period in the McGouran household. Margaret's second youngest son Alphonsus died in 1919., aged about 18. Her only living daughter Veronica died in early 1920, aged about 23. The deaths of Margaret and her son Henry (age 25) were registered at the end of the year. It seems likely that Rose knew her sister was in ill health and that is why she visited when she did.

I'm not sure what became of Margaret's son Patrick. Charles and Daniel immigrated to Rose in 1921. Their nearest relative in Ireland at the time was an aunt Bridget McBrien of 42 Mountpottinger Street (around the corner from Beechfield St). Charles and Daniel lived with Rose for a year after arriving. They returned to Ireland a few time in the 20s and 30s. Daniel had a family in Brooklyn NY and died there in 1961. Here is an overview of all of Margaret's children I was able to identify:

Agnes Jane 1882-1882 Down
Catherine 1885- before 1911 Belfast
John 1889- before 1911 Belfast
Charles 1890-after 1928
Patrick 1892-
Henry Joseph 1895-1920 Belfast
Veronica 1896 -1920 Belfast
Edward 1898-1901 Belfast
Alphonsus 1901-1919 Belfast
Daniel Patrick 1905-1961 NY

shrek512

Tom here.

You people are amazing.