N17 & M18 - Galway to Tuam and rest of Atlantic corridor back on agenda

westtip · 06-10-2009 3:25pm

Think we had a thread on this subject earlier in the year - in fact I think I started it suggested bus halts near the junctions of the new motorways but out of the towns would expedidiate journies. Again its joined up thinking but as ever that is what we lack when it comes to transport planning.

Serfboard - do you think this idea could be incorporated into Green transport bus planning for the west?

serfboard · 06-10-2009 3:30pm

Furet wrote: »

Serfboard, great idea. Is anyone with any influence reading this thread? Sometimes I think we should put pen to paper and espouse our views in a newspaper letters page!

Good idea Furet. I've created a Google Doc which has the points I've raised above in it and whose link I will send to you via PM so that you can add to it. We can then decide what to do with it later.

Anyone else want to contribute, please PM me.

Enbee · 06-10-2009 4:09pm

nordydan wrote: »

I've often thought of this system myself. the bus follows the route and you get to the route.

A better use of money than having a matching rail line though.

spacetweek · 08-10-2009 6:51pm

nordydan wrote: »

I've often thought of this system myself. the bus follows the route and you get to the route.

That system is great for the company, but not the passenger. You have to get a bus/taxi to the motorway, then get the bus, then another at the far end into the city centre. With you luggage, that's a lot of hassle.

westtip wrote: »

Think we had a thread on this subject earlier in the year - in fact I think I started it suggested bus halts near the junctions of the new motorways but out of the towns would expedidiate journies. Again its joined up thinking but as ever that is what we lack when it comes to transport planning.

It makes a one-stage journey into a 3-stage journey. It's the opposite of joined-up thinking.

westtip · 08-10-2009 10:23pm

spacetweek wrote: »

That system is great for the company, but not the passenger. You have to get a bus/taxi to the motorway, then get the bus, then another at the far end into the city centre. With you luggage, that's a lot of hassle.

It makes a one-stage journey into a 3-stage journey. It's the opposite of joined-up thinking.

Spacetweek - think this is taking us off thread - but there you go. I think the guy in the Guardian got it pretty spot on - the idea really does have merit and his description of his journey in Cambridge is a good case study - Lets think how this could be applied on our own emerging motorway system. Lets accept your argument about additional journies after you have got off the bus - lets face it not many of us live in five minutes walk of the bus station - so this journey has to be made - the idea of being dropped off at a bus station/halt near a motorway junction is I suppose the equivalent of Ryanairs "London Luton" type argument, Luton is not in London but has a good fast train line into Kings Cross and is well serviced by buses (national coache services etc, so you can move on quickly from Luton Airport. The Guardian article argued that local buses would regularly go through these "gateway" periphery bus stations - which would give connectivity to the local town/city centre - so why not adopt this idea - surely this is joined up thinking? The idea is a good one - but it would need to be incorporated into the plannng of the motorway system - Unfortunately we are building a motorway system that doesn't even have a network of petrol/service stations on it - so plannng in mini bus stations near the road junctions to major towns would be asking far too much methinks.

Sponge Bob · 08-10-2009 10:35pm

I would think that a permanent shuttle can run city centre > bus hub Spacetweek . Not in Tuam mind but in Galway or Limerick or even Athlone !

It need not be luxurious , bit like an airport bus . It would only do 2 -3 mile runs on a loop and back .

Zoney · 09-10-2009 10:24am

In Limerick's case you'd lose the advantage of the interconnect between bus and rail. Also it would not take much to provide a bus corridor between one of the M7 interchanges and the bus station - the planned change to the bus station to have access via Roxboro road will improve things too, although that will be slightly negated by the loss of access from M7/M20 to Childers/Roxboro roads (buses will have to use the N24 junction). For ten years there have been plans to have a bus corridor on Mulgrave St. (former N24 into city centre) held up.

If city-bound access was restored at M20/M7, adding slips to Roxboro Road as suggested, then it would be trivial for buses to get to the new bus station access point further in along the same road - the only intermediate traffic junctions being Roxborough roundabout and the T junction for Carey's Road.

Enbee · 09-10-2009 2:58pm

Zoney wrote: »

In Limerick's case you'd lose the advantage of the interconnect between bus and rail.

That wouldn't happen if these additional routes complemented existing ones.

serfboard · 09-10-2009 3:55pm

spacetweek wrote: »

That system is great for the company, but not the passenger. You have to get a bus/taxi to the motorway, then get the bus, then another at the far end into the city centre. With you luggage, that's a lot of hassle.

It makes a one-stage journey into a 3-stage journey. It's the opposite of joined-up thinking.

Good arguments. The bus route would go something like this. City Centre A->Bus Park & Ride A->Bus Park & Ride B->City Centre B. Bus Park & Ride A->Bus Park & Ride B could thus be made into very reliable and quick journey times.

I've been on bus services in the UK that do this. Local services also pick up and drop off at the Park & Ride.

westtip wrote: »

lets face it not many of us live in five minutes walk of the bus station - so this journey has to be made

Exactly. Under the existing set-up, you still have to make a journey from your location in City A to the bus station (city centre) in City A, and from the bus station (city centre) in city B to your final destination. Still a 3-stage journey anyway.

westtip · 11-10-2009 12:25pm

Thang goodness this project wasn't named to be shelved in the new programme for Government - The Eastern wider orbital bypass of Dublin was - although this was highyly unlikely to happen in any event - but the Greens had names the Atlantic Road Corridor as one they had targetted to take off the list in last weeks report - Thankfully this has not happened - Anyway as we all know makes little difference as there is no money!

Mind I did the N17 to Galway last night there and back in the evening (Sligo Galway) - not been on it for a few weeks - each time I do I am reminded of the brutality of this route - god help you folk who use it everyday.

Sponge Bob · 11-10-2009 12:52pm

It is shelved. the 2:1 ratio is predicated on public transport spending post 2011 . This itself shall be anorexic and 50% of **** all is **** all ....as we know.

If you read carefully they are saying that no new road projects will start between now and 2011 and thereafter ( 2012) the new ratio applies .

marmurr1916 · 11-10-2009 2:19pm

The revised Programme for Government says that the final designs of all 94 planned road projects will be reviewed in the light of falling traffic (!), and environmental and economic circumstances.

Translated, that means that any planned motorways/HQDCs will probably be downgraded to 2+2 standard and any planned 2+2 will probably be downgraded to single-carriageway.

It also seems likely that some of these projects will be dropped, at least for the lifetime of this government.

I'd expect the Gort to Tuam motorway to go ahead though, although it's very unlikely that the M20 will proceed or that most of the proposed 2+2 upgrades to the N17 between Tuam and Collooney and the N15 between Sligo and Co. Donegal will proceed.

Sponge Bob · 11-10-2009 2:34pm

marmurr1916 wrote: »

Translated, that means that any planned motorways/HQDCs will probably be downgraded to 2+2 standard and any planned 2+2 will probably be downgraded to single-carriageway.

Translated that also means that "Every one of the 94 planned National Road projects must be reviewed. Following such a review any National Road Project that does not meet design criteria must be redesigned." .

In many cases that will mean narrowing and reduced land take but no route or alignment changes . Naturally there is bugger all money for all of this which is a great excuse to kick a load of these into limbo.

I'd expect the Gort to Tuam motorway to go ahead though, although it's very unlikely that the M20 will proceed or that most of the proposed 2+2 upgrades to the N17 between Tuam and Collooney and the N15 between Sligo and Co. Donegal will proceed.

Claregalway traffic has dropped but not by very much

http://www.nra.ie/NetworkManagement/TrafficCounts/TrafficCounterData/html/N17-16.htm

N18 traffic is difficult to 'interpret' as you can see , it appears to have RISEN

http://www.nra.ie/NetworkManagement/TrafficCounts/TrafficCounterData/html/N18-6.htm

I would worry about the M20 though

westtip · 11-10-2009 2:35pm

marmurr1916 wrote: »

I'd expect the Gort to Tuam motorway to go ahead though, although it's very unlikely that the M20 will proceed or that most of the proposed 2+2 upgrades to the N17 between Tuam and Collooney and the N15 between Sligo and Co. Donegal will proceed.

really based on volume of traffic it wouldn't be a tragedy if the N17 - Sligo Tuam was simply upgrade to wide single with hard shoulder - as per the standard of the Claremorris/Knock bypass if Tuam Gort was 2+2 DC instead of motorway - that would not be a major issue - but this road is desparately in need of upgrading. It is very dangerous neve mind the volume of traffic. Also the N15 Sligo - Co Donegal - A deathrap of a road - the most important thing is a new road be it the standard of the Bundoran by-pass then so be it -this road is lethal at present. If the M20 ended up as 2+2 instead of motorway woudl that be a major issue? All academic there is no money anyway.

Sponge Bob · 11-10-2009 2:49pm

westtip wrote: »

All academic there is no money anyway.

To Be honest I would be happy were they to simply bypass GALWAY ( N59-Airport will do me ) and Claregalway and Tuam over the next 5-10 years .

I can live with the rest of the N15/N17 because I do not commute it and would then not have to cross Galway in the rush hours which is utterly hellish

Chris_533976 · 11-10-2009 3:28pm

Money aside, I cant see even the stupidity of this government building Gort to Athenry as 2+2, since you'd end up with a glaring motorway gap. That will be built as M18 **sometime**. I reckon though you could get away with Athenry to Tuam as 2+2 with a Claregalway inner relief road thrown in.

Sponge Bob · 11-10-2009 4:17pm

Chris_533976 wrote: »

Money aside, I cant see even the stupidity of this government building Gort to Athenry as 2+2.

This is the same government that is running the Fibre To The Fish project in Galway Bay , of course they can

Very good capacity-demand matching formulae from here once you strip out the traffic that will not go as far as Athenry .

It shows that Mysterious was not entirely on a bum steer with his fourth lane east of Newlands Cross:p

Note . The selected representative sections are:

• Sub-standard 2 lane: 5-6m pavement on a 8-9m platform
• Standard 2 lane: 7m pavement on 11m platform reflecting EU norms
• Standard 2 lane + (crawler lane): As standard above plus 3rd lane of 3.5m

• Half Motorway profile (2x 3.75m lane carriageway with shoulders)
[FONT=TimesNewRoman,Bold][FONT=TimesNewRoman,Bold]

( Trans-European Motorway Standards and Recommended Practice, UN-ECE, Trans-European North-South Motorway; Revised Draft March 2000)

Table A5 – 1: Highway Capacity (vehicles per day)

Carriageway Type Flat / Hilly Terrain ( Ireland has no mountains, stripped out ) .

Half Motorway would essentially be WS2 with the land all taken for 2+2 and 100% GSJ .

Arguably the problem is proving that the jump from 12k-16k will occur as against a party that are adamant that they will tax cars off the road anyway thereby capping the roads at 12k-14k movements per day as is broadly the case at present on the busier sections of the Atlantic corridor .

[/FONT][/FONT]Sub-standard 2 lane 4000 - 7000
Standard 2 lane 8000 - 12000
Half Motorway profile 9500 - 14000
Expressway 17500 - 30000

2x2 lane Motorway:

Rural 20000 – 35000
Urban 30000 - 55000

2x3 lane Motorway:

Rural 31000 - 52000
Urban 65000 - 85000

and some nice pics, look at how eastern europe builds motorways ( in this case across Transylvania)

westtip · 11-10-2009 8:00pm

Sponge Bob wrote: »

and some nice pics, look at how eastern europe builds motorways ( in this case across Transylvania)

Great pics in that thread in Transylvania - looks like they don't have any Peter Sweetmans over there or have to cope with any EIS implications - just get on with it boys!

On those traffic counts - look at the figures from the NRA website http://www.nra.ie/NetworkManagement/TrafficCounts/TrafficCounterData/html/N17-15.htm

Tuam Road section of the N17 around 15,000 vehicles per day http://www.nra.ie/NetworkManagement/TrafficCounts/TrafficCounterData/html/N17-15.htm

Claregalway around 22,500 per day

http://www.nra.ie/NetworkManagement/TrafficCounts/TrafficCounterData/html/N17-16.htm

Gort about 13,000

http://www.nra.ie/NetworkManagement/TrafficCounts/TrafficCounterData/html/N17-16.htm

The traffic count figures do not justify full blown motorway so for me anyway 2+2 dc would suffice from Gort to Tuam...others may disagree

Chris_533976 · 11-10-2009 9:13pm

The thing is that no traffic numbers in Ireland justify motorway. Abbeyleix takes 15k and is getting motorway.

We have to stop somewhere, so I'd say Gort to Athenry should be motorway to plug the gap, with the M17 built entirely as 2+2 and the Claregalway relief road pushed.

Then apart from the M20, the rest of the M11 and a couple of bits and pieces, we dont really need anymore motorway yet. 2+2s, some APDC or S2s for the rest of the way.

westtip · 11-10-2009 9:31pm

Pretty much agree with your post Chris.

Sponge Bob · 11-10-2009 10:13pm

2+2 is confusingly called Type 2 by the NRA.

For those coming late to this forum the road North of Sligo is now proposed at 6km of Type 1 ( like the southern N4 approach from Colooney ) and 20km of type 2 further north .

1. Type 1 is fully grade separated with ramps up and down at junctions and hard shoulders too
2. Type 2 ( 2+2) is not always grade separated although it may be at busy junctions. Hard shoulders are anorexic . Therefore the road is narrower.
3. Type 3 was tried and abandoned, also called 2+1 . A road will therefore be 2+2 or Wide Single . The only proper example I ever saw built was in Monaghan with a mickey mouse version south of Mallow.

The Knock Bypass could be converted to 2+2 very easily . 2+2 has no hard shoulder or very narrow hard shoulder .

Pictures of 2+2 here

http://www.nra.ie/Publications/DownloadableDocumentation/RoadDesignConstruction/file,11236,en.pdf

Finally we should remember that the reason we have hard shoulders on our single lane roads (unlike the UK) is

1. Feckin Farmers who wanted their tractors on primary routes , and had fields opening off them. The feckers also had a big lobby back then in the IFA .
2. Our cars were ****e in the 1970s when hard shoulders became the norm not the exception ...and often broke down .

By planning and enforcing access limitations we can effectively build 2+2 instead of wide single on main routes . The capacity increase will suffice at all except the busiest times ...eg friday afternoons in summer.

Tech3 · 11-10-2009 10:19pm

I was coming back down the N17/N18 from Sligo to Limerick tonight. The road is a disaster from Tuam to Gort. The traffic was absolutely awful, it took me nearly 2 hours from Tuam to Shannon alone.

When the Gort-Tuam is done it will take 50 mins from Tuam to Shannon.

Seriously this road at the minute is a joke for people outside of the commuter belt.

Sponge Bob · 11-10-2009 10:35pm

tech2 wrote: »

I don't think we need 2+2 for this as the road is sufficient enough as S2 tbh. They would probably ruin the perfect surface that is down as well.

2+2 would mean that you need not hope the car in front pulls in on the hard shoulder for ya

There is no logical reason why standard ( not wide) single lane need not be nearly as good as the Knock Bypass if one were ruthless with L drivers and bloody tractors and set minimum speeds and 'pull aside' requirements like in the states where you must pull in if there are 5 cars queued behind you .....no matter what speed you are doing .

That would be an access controlled standard single lane ( with hard shoulders for 1/2 mile out of every 3 miles for pulling in ) .

It would suffice in many places and is used quite a lot in the UK although most commonly on 1960s and 1970s built roads in my experience...and without hard shoulders or pull in requirements of course.

Let me say that I do not propose such a configuration on the Atlantic corridor but would consider it on the Roscommon section of the N5 that badly needs doing and where AADT is around 5000 and long has been and likely will continue to be .

YES that means that the N5 Charlestown bypass is, in my opinion, slightly too wide for its purpose ( AADT c 5k units) and could have been equally effective with a lower land take. However it was designed to humour tractors and L drivers .

Tech3 · 11-10-2009 10:44pm

Sponge Bob wrote: »

There is no logical reason why standard ( not wide) single lane need not be nearly as good as the Knock Bypass if one were ruthless with L drivers and bloody tractors and set minimum speeds and 'pull aside' requirements like in the states where you must pull in if there are 5 cars queued behind you .....no matter what speed you are doing .

That would be an access controlled standard single lane ( with hard shoulders for 1/2 mile out of every 3 miles for pulling in ) .

It would suffice in many places and is used quite a lot in the UK although most commonly on 1960s and 1970s built roads in my experience.

I agree with all your points there. There is absolutely no reason whatsoever to be driving along at 80km/hr holding up a lot of traffic. It frustrates drivers and results in dangerous overtaking which sometimes can turn out to be fatal.

The slow lanes can be very effective but even then I encounter too many idiots not pulling into the slow lane. One example is north of Ballinacarrow, they never pull in.

Sponge Bob · 11-10-2009 11:04pm

tech2 wrote: »

The slow lanes can be very effective but even then I encounter too many idiots not pulling into the slow lane. One example is north of Ballinacarrow, they never pull in.

That would be why an Access Controlled S2 Standard with cameras at the beginning of the pullover sections would be very cost effective .

You then know that you can do 100kph steady and if not then you only put up with it for 2.5 miles where they gotta pull in or face a deux points infraction.

National roads should be about doing 100kph steady or 120kph steady for long stretches .

It may further require 2 tiers of secondary road because I could not compare the importance of the N5 to that the N59 in all fairness which has an AADT of 3k west of Oughterard and which serves far fewer people . I would consider Access Restrictions to be overkill on such a road.

Roadsliek the N59 may best be considered as Tier one Regional like the R336 south Connemara Road through Barna .

Now the NRA 'owns' them all it may be time to look into all of these matters with green tinted glasses and with a mind to put inappropiate traffic off National Routes in the National interest .

You will further want electric cars to be able to traverse the state on the one charge , they really dog their batteries unless they can hold a steady speed

. Once a standard electric car can do 400 miles you will need to give them clear 400 mile runs in the national interest seeing as they will take half a day to recharge . Consider it a citizens right to freedom of movement in a small green state

A ****ing electric car would hardly do Tuam Galway and back right now and would probably die slap in the middle of Claregalway at 5pm of a friday

westtip · 11-10-2009 11:43pm

tech2 wrote: »

I was coming back down the N17/N18 from Sligo to Limerick tonight. The road is a disaster from Tuam to Gort. The traffic was absolutely awful, it took me nearly 2 hours from Tuam to Shannon alone.

.

Tis a nightmare and death trap of a road. Drove down it saturday late pm and back at about 10 on Sat night (Sligo - Galway)- it is a mare of road and concur with everything you say Tech.

tech2 wrote: »

I agree with all your points there. There is absolutely no reason whatsoever to be driving along at 80km/hr holding up a lot of traffic. It frustrates drivers and results in dangerous overtaking which sometimes can turn out to be fatal.

The slow lanes can be very effective but even then I encounter too many idiots not pulling into the slow lane. One example is north of Ballinacarrow, they never pull in.

I don't know why they use the term "slow lane" in signage it means every pratt toddling along at whatever speed says are thats not for me thats for slow cretins - when they themselves are in fact the slow cretins - signs should say use left hand lane ahead - If you are driving on a road with two lanes and the lane ahead is clear you drive in the left hand lane no matter what speed you are doing - As for the habit many have on our standard single carriageway with wide hard shoulder national roads (such as Knock bypass N17 or Boyle bypass on the N4) of simpy never looking in the rear view mirror to see the traffic behind, and driving along at about 80 kph with their drivers side front wheel about six inches from the central line and enough room for a jugarnaut between them and the road edge on their left - it just baffles me - I just can't stand it! why People can't look in their rear view mirror and realise someone wants to pass and just pull into the unnecessary "hard shoulder" is beyond me! They only have to pull over half way into the hard shoulder - which by the way I would actually cut to half the width it is and provide a soft verge; Ok these driver may have set their cars to autocruise at bang on 98 kph but do you know what its dangerous not to be mindful of the drivers around you .... Mind you one massive danger we have on our national roads with single carriageway and hard shoulder is when roads are upgraded and opened the hard shoulder suddenly becomes the power walkers route to death - I mean why would anyone want to take an evening stroll on for example the Knock by-pass and just how many people do you see walking along the Claremorris/Knock bypass in the hard shoulder two abreast, with only two yards of tarmac and a yellow painted line between them and lorries, buses and motorcars hurtling past at 100 - 120 kph on a national road - What pleasure is there in that? One thing the Greens have got right is their view on proper facilities for pedestrians - I am surprised we don't have more pedestrian deaths on these roads, it only needs a blow out or item falling off a lorry to wipe out someone in an instant. It is simply crazy to use the hard shoulder as a pedestrian routeway - now this is something that needs addressing on all national roads.

Sponge Bob · 23-10-2009 10:35am

....but will those nasty greens give it to them ????

http://www.galwaynews.ie/9244-nra-chief039s-strong-signal-gort-tuam-motorway-still-track

Do remember that land acquisition must be funded in 2010 in order for the construction to commence , some of the land is already bought and fenced off but not all of it by any means . If the fencing does not appear continually over the course of the next year we have a problem .

Building the road itselft thereafter will cost around €250m max and as that is on a PPP the annual cost will be substantially less.

Tony Collins of the National Roads Authority in Galway said that a contractor would be appointed by October next year after which construction of the 57 kilometres of motorway would commence.

“The NRA have been very supportive of this project and I am confident that work will commence before the end of next year”, he said and added that the project would also include the Tuam bypass.

Mr. Collins said that the tendering process was currently under way and that the successful contractor would be appointed based on both a technical and financial perspective.

It is estimated that the Gort to Tuam project, including the Tuam bypass, will cost in the region of €500 million and is expected to commence once the Gort to Crusheen section of the N18 is completed around the middle of next year.

Irish and Proud · 23-10-2009 1:07pm

tech2 wrote: »

I agree with all your points there. There is absolutely no reason whatsoever to be driving along at 80km/hr holding up a lot of traffic. It frustrates drivers and results in dangerous overtaking which sometimes can turn out to be fatal.

The slow lanes can be very effective but even then I encounter too many idiots not pulling into the slow lane. One example is north of Ballinacarrow, they never pull in.

...yes, if you can't keep up with the traffic, you've really no business driving - it's dangerous - simple as that. If I had my way, motorways would have a minimum speed of 100kph for cars and 80kph for trucks. On WD2 motorways, the maximum speed limits should be increased to 130kph for cars and 90kph for trucks - if the height for trucks was restricted to 3.65m, is there any real reason why they can't go faster than 80kph on a motorway? As for anyone caught doing 60kph on a motorway for no good reason, it would be a criminal offence, as would be the case with speeds exceeding the limit by 30kph or more (like in France AFAIK). Crawlers and speedsters are reckless drivers - simple as that!

Regards!

Chris_533976 · 23-10-2009 5:37pm

Sponge Bob wrote: »

....but will those nasty greens give it to them ????

http://www.galwaynews.ie/9244-nra-chief039s-strong-signal-gort-tuam-motorway-still-track

Do remember that land acquisition must be funded in 2010 in order for the construction to commence , some of the land is already bought and fenced off but not all of it by any means . If the fencing does not appear continually over the course of the next year we have a problem .

Building the road itselft thereafter will cost around €250m max and as that is on a PPP the annual cost will be substantially less.

Good question. Gort to Athenry is CPOed and fenced, not sure about the Athenry to Tuam bit.

KevR · 23-10-2009 5:58pm

Surely if money has been spent on CPOing Gort-Athenry it would be a huge waste/national scandal not to CPO Athenry-Tuam and build the road.

N17 & M18 - Galway to Tuam and rest of Atlantic corridor back on agenda

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