The Luas: Badly designed?

Keyzer · 15-03-2019 10:08am

We've had the Luas for over a decade - everyone knows about it, knows where the tracks are and most people know what a tram/train looks like.

Its not the Luas's fault certain pedestrians are idiots or certain drivers don't give a toss about obeying the rules of the road.

OneArt · 15-03-2019 1:38pm

For years, I've lived in cities that are well-connected with many tram lines. Thankfully, have never actually seen someone get run over. But I've seen plenty of near misses with people and cars.

In all cases, it's the f*cking IDIOTS who have no idea how to conduct themselves in traffic.

1.) Tram line (right in front of the stop), bells ringing as the tram approaches and the pedestrian cross light has just turned red. There's a woman standing RIGHT BETWEEN the tracks (no headphones in), fiddling on her phone. The tram got so close the driver had to honk the horn and scares the sh!t out of her. She leaps forward and the tram just about misses slicing her foot off.

2.) Bunch of people waiting to cross. Pedestrian light is taking too long to turn green (it's Germany, so people tend to obey them a bit more...) people are hit with a sudden surge of impatience just as the tram is inches away. They run across the track like headless f*cking chickens and the driver has to honk the horn and break suddenly. They basically just run out in front of him. Morons.

3.) Traffic lights for cars turn green. One car stops completely on the tram lines, your man just sitting there scratching his balls or whatever. Tram pulls away from the station, starts ringing its bells really loudly. Car ignores it until its really close, then bombs away and nearly knocks a pedestrian off the footpath.

No, trams/trains are not badly designed. In fact, they're the safest form of public transport. Sure, they have accidents but cars have more fatalities. You can easily avoid it by NOT WALKING ON THE DAMN RAIL LINES which is easy to do. Especially in a city like Dublin where there aren't many to begin with.

There's talk of banning cars from Cologne city center which I'd definitely support. It would make it more cyclist friendly too and easier to get around. Driving through the center of any busy city is a pain in the arse anyway. It's usually much faster to cycle or get a tram (not a buses though).

ghostdancer · 15-03-2019 1:47pm

as with most things, idiot people are the problem.

also, like in other countries, the sooner we start putting cameras overlooking yellow boxes and fining vehicles that stop in them and cause Luas delays, the better.

H3llR4iser · 15-03-2019 2:00pm

OneArt wrote: »

For years, I've lived in cities that are well-connected with many tram lines. Thankfully, have never actually seen someone get run over. But I've seen plenty of near misses with people and cars.

Was going to say this - tram lines work almost exactly in the same way more or less everywhere (sure, there ARE cities where they're segregated and classified as "light railways"), I don't see why Dublin has to somehow be the exception where it "can't work". Sounds to me like the same silly opposition to building apartments I keep hearing.

OneArt wrote: »

In all cases, it's the f*cking IDIOTS who have no idea how to conduct themselves in traffic.

[cut]

2.) Bunch of people waiting to cross. Pedestrian light is taking too long to turn green (it's Germany, so people tend to obey them a bit more...) people are hit with a sudden surge of impatience just as the tram is inches away. They run across the track like headless f*cking chickens and the driver has to honk the horn and break suddenly. They basically just run out in front of him. Morons.

[cut]

Yeah this - you can hardly fault the tram line design for people being stupider than farm animals.

Something like this happened to be a few years ago in Cork, on the quay at the junction between Pana and Patrick's hill. I was stopped at the red light, people crossing; The little man turns red, people stop but I spot this moronic arsehole of an hippie, wearing gigantic noise canceling headphones, walking down at a pace towards the light - as my light turns green, he just crosses without even looking...and everyone follows behind.

AndrewJRenko · 15-03-2019 3:45pm

Maybe we need more hi-vis on the bridges too? Let's just hi-vis everything, just to make certain that drivers don't have to actually pay attention to their driving.

https://twitter.com/DubFireBrigade/status/1106552162702815232?s=19

kylith · 15-03-2019 6:48pm

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

You can say the Luas wasn't responsible for these other incidents in some legal sense, but the system certainly did result in new risks to road-users.

New risks? Like 'don't walk out in front of vehicles'? I'd have thought that was a fairly basic concept that anyone born outside of rural Mongolia would have come across.

iamwhoiam · 15-03-2019 7:00pm

kylith wrote: »

New risks? Like 'don't walk out in front of vehicles'? I'd have thought that was a fairly basic concept that anyone born outside of rural Mongolia would have come across.

I think even in rural Mongolia they would know to step aside if a horse came galloping by

punisher5112 · 15-03-2019 7:25pm

Unfortunately there is no cure for stupid.

AMKC · 15-03-2019 7:46pm

It was designed and done wrong from the start. It should have been put up of stilts like the metro system in Sydney for instance. That way it would not have taken up the road space that it did and that could have still been used too so the traffic in the city would have been reduced as some people that drove in would now be able to use the trams that go along on tracks built up high over the roads not on them and there would not have to have been as many changes to traffic into the city so the vehicles would move along better now with less vehicles on it. But no they said it would be anti-social lol as if anyone getting on the Luas these day are social anyway with there eyes and ears addicted to there devices.

rossie1977 · 15-03-2019 7:52pm

They have almost identical system in Nice

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RlLXMaldlwk

Manic Moran · 15-03-2019 7:59pm

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Maybe we need more hi-vis on the bridges too? Let's just hi-vis everything, just to make certain that drivers don't have to actually pay attention to their driving.

https://twitter.com/DubFireBrigade/status/1106552162702815232?s=19

look up 11 foot 8. They come complete with flashing lights if your truck is too high to fit under the bridge. They've filmed over 140 crashes on that bridge. http://11foot8.com/

astrofool · 15-03-2019 8:25pm

AMKC wrote: »

It was designed and done wrong from the start. It should have been put up of stilts like the metro system in Sydney for instance. That way it would not have taken up the road space that it did and that could have still been used too so the traffic in the city would have been reduced as some people that drove in would now be able to use the trams that go along on tracks built up high over the roads not on them and there would not have to have been as many changes to traffic into the city so the vehicles would move along better now with less vehicles on it. But no they said it would be anti-social lol as if anyone getting on the Luas these day are social anyway with there eyes and ears addicted to there devices.

I think a Luas on stilts would fall afoul of our building height restrictions! (I'd imagine the main reason it wasn't done is the cost)

AMKC · 15-03-2019 10:26pm

astrofool wrote: »

I think a Luas on stilts would fall afoul of our building height restrictions! (I'd imagine the main reason it wasn't done is the cost)

It hardly have been any worse than digging up all the roads it was going along. I think it could have worked out cheaper and its not like it would have had to be that high only about 10 feet up or so not 160 feet up like say a 20 story building.

salmocab · 15-03-2019 10:30pm

AMKC wrote: »

It hardly have been any worse than digging up all the roads it was going along. I think it could have worked out cheaper and its not like it would have had to be that high only about 10 feet up or so not 160 feet up like say a 20 story building.

10feet? That wouldn’t let a bus under. It would be a massive eyesore that would never have got through planning

antoinolachtnai · 15-03-2019 11:14pm

The shading effect (cutting off light) on relatively narrow streets (even Abbey Street would be very great. The stations would end up boxing in whole sections of the street when you'd be done putting in elevators and lifts.

whisky_galore · 15-03-2019 11:26pm

AMKC wrote: »

It hardly have been any worse than digging up all the roads it was going along. I think it could have worked out cheaper and its not like it would have had to be that high only about 10 feet up or so not 160 feet up like say a 20 story building.

The digging is all done now, that's a non argument.
The people pissing and moaning about all the "digging up our roads" are fairly quiet now that their property values have gone up along the route.

AndrewJRenko · 15-03-2019 11:38pm

AMKC wrote: »

It hardly have been any worse than digging up all the roads it was going along. I think it could have worked out cheaper and its not like it would have had to be that high only about 10 feet up or so not 160 feet up like say a 20 story building.

Cheaper? I'd love to see your calculations to show how building an additional platform above all the roads would have saved money. What costs would be reduced by this approach?

sabat · 16-03-2019 12:18am

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Is this a joke?

It's covered in a big yellow stripe. It's big, it's shiny in parts, and it runs along the same track every day, just a few minutes apart.

And you want it repainted? Maybe if drivers would just put their phones down and stop breaking red lights, then they'd stop crashing.

Do we need to paint all houses in hi-vis too now, to make it easy for drivers to avoid them?

No need for the sarcasm. On an overcast (ie almost every) day the trams do tend to merge into the background, particularly around O'Connell St where a lot of the buildings are grey.

AndrewJRenko · 16-03-2019 1:02am

sabat wrote: »

No need for the sarcasm. On an overcast (ie almost every) day the trams do tend to merge into the background, particularly around O'Connell St where a lot of the buildings are grey.

And the big yellow stripe?

maninasia · 16-03-2019 2:05am

AMKC wrote: »

It hardly have been any worse than digging up all the roads it was going along. I think it could have worked out cheaper and its not like it would have had to be that high only about 10 feet up or so not 160 feet up like say a 20 story building.

You are proposing elevated rail lines, they are very common in Asia and work very well.

Omackeral · 16-03-2019 8:23am

The Luas, particularly the Red Line, is fantastically designed if you're a scrote of society. Passes numerous clinics such as St James for the methodone, the 4 courts and the CCJ for all the charges you face and then O Connell St for all your robbery needs with added bonus Boardwalk for scoring heroin and getting out of your head. And you don't even have to pay on to it.

AndrewJRenko · 16-03-2019 10:40am

Another near-invisible Luas smashed up this morning;

https://twitter.com/DubFireBrigade/status/1106847358707486720

That's a lot of damage to the bus - not a fender-bender

Omackeral · 16-03-2019 10:48am

"expect delays in the area"

I'll expect compo claims and whiplash in the area

Fighting Tao · 16-03-2019 11:01am

The design is not bad. It works the world over. It is people that are the problem. Many are idiots that have no awareness of the environment they walk/drive through multiple times a week. There is no issue with the visibility of the trams. They can be seen if a person is looking. If they are not looking then it doesn't matter what colour they are.

I'd be of the opinion that any motorist that is proven to break a red/amber light and crashes with a LUAS should automatically be banned for 2 years. No appeal.

AMKC · 16-03-2019 11:40am

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

The shading effect (cutting off light) on relatively narrow streets (even Abbey Street would be very great. The stations would end up boxing in whole sections of the street when you'd be done putting in elevators and lifts.

Ok good point.

whisky_galore wrote: »

The digging is all done now, that's a non argument.
The people pissing and moaning about all the "digging up our roads" are fairly quiet now that their property values have gone up along the route.

True.

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Cheaper? I'd love to see your calculations to show how building an additional platform above all the roads would have saved money. What costs would be reduced by this approach?

Well it can't have been much more than it cost anyway if it would have been done right. But it is the way it now anyway and there was another crash again this morning because of the way it is.

maninasia wrote: »

You are proposing elevated rail lines, they are very common in Asia and work very well.

That's them yes. Thank you.

AndrewJRenko · 16-03-2019 11:45am

AMKC wrote: »

Well it can't have been much more than it cost anyway if it would have been done right. But it is the way it now anyway and there was another crash again this morning because of the way it is.

There was another crash this morning because some idiot wasn't looking where they're going. And yes, building elevated platforms to take the weight of a Luas, along with access for passengers to each stop, including lifts for wheelchair access would have cost an awful lot more.

punisher5112 · 16-03-2019 11:57am

5 Luas staff taken to hospital..... Cha Ching....

andekwarhola · 16-03-2019 12:03pm

To be fair, the luas is a good system but it's operating in the context of a very congested car-reliant city that still has a paucity of public transport options.

It's inevitable that these accidents will occur when you have trams operating in a city centre with no restrictions on vehicular traffic.

vectorvictor · 16-03-2019 12:05pm

punisher5112 wrote: »

5 Luas staff taken to hospital..... Cha Ching....

And about 50 passengers at about 2pm after they get talking to their mates and suddenly develop symptoms.

andekwarhola · 16-03-2019 12:07pm

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

There was another crash this morning because some idiot wasn't looking where they're going. And yes, building elevated platforms to take the weight of a Luas, along with access for passengers to each stop, including lifts for wheelchair access would have cost an awful lot more.

Plus it'd be an utter eyesore.

How much expense and ugliness do we require because people want to have the god given right to drive in the city centre?

salmocab · 16-03-2019 12:41pm

An overhead luas would be absolutely awful in the city, it could work in the suburbs on main roads but that’s where it wouldn’t be needed. It would need to have a high clearance to allow double deckers pass under. It would cost a fortune to build like that. On top of that it would be the ugliest thing in the city. Imagine a big concrete structure running by the front of trinity college.

strandroad · 16-03-2019 1:13pm

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Another near-invisible Luas smashed up this morning;

https://twitter.com/DubFireBrigade/status/1106847358707486720

That's a lot of damage to the bus - not a fender-bender

Someone broke their red light hard.

fullstop · 16-03-2019 2:04pm

AMKC wrote: »

It was designed and done wrong from the start. It should have been put up of stilts like the metro system in Sydney for instance. That way it would not have taken up the road space that it did and that could have still been used too so the traffic in the city would have been reduced as some people that drove in would now be able to use the trams that go along on tracks built up high over the roads not on them and there would not have to have been as many changes to traffic into the city so the vehicles would move along better now with less vehicles on it. But no they said it would be anti-social lol as if anyone getting on the Luas these day are social anyway with there eyes and ears addicted to there devices.

The tram/monorail in Sydney that was shut down and decommissioned years ago having only been built when the olympics were coming? Not a great example.
The current system is on street level for part of it and crosses junctions with traffic.

holliehobbie · 16-03-2019 2:14pm

vectorvictor wrote: »

And about 50 passengers at about 2pm after they get talking to their mates and suddenly develop symptoms.

Think it happened about 7am on a Saturday morning of a Bank Holiday weekend. No one up at that hour especially scrotes and their mates! That's why nearly all of the 9 people taken to hospital were Luas employees!

The_Brood · 16-03-2019 2:16pm

It's faster to walk around the city center then get through it by luas. The traffic is beyond ridiculous.

Somedaythefire · 16-03-2019 2:17pm

The_Brood wrote: »

It's faster to walk around the city center then get through it by luas. The traffic is beyond ridiculous.

No its not.

The_Brood · 16-03-2019 2:20pm

Somedaythefire wrote: »

No its not.

I have tried it. More than once.

Somedaythefire · 16-03-2019 2:22pm

The_Brood wrote: »

I have tried it. More than once.

Good for you. I get the luas across the city every day at both rush hours. I walk it sometimes too and it is absolutely not faster walking.

ArmaniJeanss · 16-03-2019 2:27pm

The_Brood wrote: »

It's faster to walk around the city center then get through it by luas. The traffic is beyond ridiculous.

This is one of these 'so what' scenarios, even if its true.
It happens all over the world, like going from Leicester Sq to Covent Garden on the Tube in London would take marginally longer than walking but no-one suggests that its a bad idea to serve these places.
These things generally aren't designed to be the best way of going from one city centre stop to another city centre stop a kilometre away, they are primarily commuter lines aimed at going from suburban locations to urban locations. The slow bits in the middle are necessary for the overall system to be a working network.

Jamie2k9 · 16-03-2019 2:33pm

The Luas has an excellent safety record. The key difference in Dubin to other European cities is breaking lights is not tolerated. Goverment announced the red light camera trial will be discontinued.

You could argue some elements could have been better however they are irrelevant to its safety record.

The_Brood · 16-03-2019 2:34pm

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

This is one of these 'so what' scenarios, even if its true.
It happens all over the world, like going from Leicester Sq to Covent Garden on the Tube in London would take marginally longer than walking but no-one suggests that its a bad idea to serve these places.
These things generally aren't designed to be the best way of going from one city centre stop to another city centre stop a kilometre away, they are primarily commuter lines aimed at going from suburban locations to urban locations. The slow bits in the middle are necessary for the overall system to be a working network.

That's why underground metros are a necessity. Without them, you are stick with an endlessly worsening cluster**** above .

Three More Big Sleeps · 16-03-2019 2:58pm

jrmb wrote: »

I saw a tram painted yellow the other day as part of an advertising campaign.

Yes indeed, saw it this morning: it's almost fluorescent yellow and it's irrelevantly for some vaping company.

In any event, the colour made no difference as I was crossing the road, mostly because I'm self-aware enough to know that I was crossing a fcuking road.

orourkeda1977 · 16-03-2019 4:53pm

magic_murph wrote: »

Do you think there are design flaws with the luas and the signaling systems etc considering the amount of accident and actual deaths that have been linked with it.

Some incidents are definitely as a result of people running red lights etc but not all can be classed this way.

I wonder how much of a review takes places after each of the incidents

A more significant problem is the number of idiots using the roads.

Idiot drivers.

Idiot pedestrians.

Idiot cyclists.

kirving · 16-03-2019 6:04pm

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Another near-invisible Luas smashed up this morning;

Who said anything about near-invisible? I could post a picture of a plane crash and claim planes are unsafe. Cherry picking incidents does prove much.

Their livery is close to the worst colour possible for a country like Ireland. Overcast skies and long periods of twilight.

This was intentional however. Blends into the city well, doesn't look tacky, and won't go out of fashion easily since it's so bland.

When the Luas was first introduced it did not have the yellow stripe. I imagine it was added at cost to the operator for a specific reason.

Go-Ahead busses were originally blue at the front when first tested, and were very quickly changed to yellow in response to customer feedback.

I think they certainly could have improved lighting at the front though before going changing the livery.

punisher5112 · 16-03-2019 8:26pm

There is a AOA Luas all yellow at the moment, not sure if posted already.

Doesn't matter the colour as people are just thick and as thick as 2 planks....

They see vehicles coming and they step out, on their phones etc and in a different world and step out...

No cure for thickness I'm afraid

AndrewJRenko · 17-03-2019 11:06am

Kevin Irving wrote: »

Who said anything about near-invisible? I could post a picture of a plane crash and claim planes are unsafe. Cherry picking incidents does prove much.

Their livery is close to the worst colour possible for a country like Ireland. Overcast skies and long periods of twilight.

This was intentional however. Blends into the city well, doesn't look tacky, and won't go out of fashion easily since it's so bland.

When the Luas was first introduced it did not have the yellow stripe. I imagine it was added at cost to the operator for a specific reason.

Go-Ahead busses were originally blue at the front when first tested, and were very quickly changed to yellow in response to customer feedback.

I think they certainly could have improved lighting at the front though before going changing the livery.

You can imagine all you like, but the facts don't change - it's big, noisy, and has a big yellow stripe all round it. Anyone who has difficulty seeing it has no business being behind the wheel.

Do we need to ban all silver/grey cars as well?

kylith · 17-03-2019 9:06pm

punisher5112 wrote: »

There is a AOA Luas all yellow at the moment, not sure if posted already.

Doesn't matter the colour as people are just thick and as thick as 2 planks....

They see vehicles coming and they step out, on their phones etc and in a different world and step out...

No cure for thickness I'm afraid

Indeed. It doesn't matter what colour you paint it if people don't look at it.

devintoner · 17-03-2019 9:10pm

The Luas Red Line needs to be extended to Rathcoole.

BTW are the super-long trams still in use?

LollipopJimmy · 17-03-2019 10:03pm

Somedaythefire wrote: »

Good for you. I get the luas across the city every day at both rush hours. I walk it sometimes too and it is absolutely not faster walking.

Do you have one leg?

I take the Luas to Abbey and walk to Charlemont area quicker than the Luas, I've taken and still take the Luas when I'm feeling lazy but walking is quicker then Marlborough to Charlemont

IngazZagni · 17-03-2019 10:20pm

LollipopJimmy wrote: »

Do you have one leg?

I take the Luas to Abbey and walk to Charlemont area quicker than the Luas, I've taken and still take the Luas when I'm feeling lazy but walking is quicker then Marlborough to Charlemont

Google maps says that walk takes 30 minutes. Even if you’re power walking that will take at least 20 minutes. The Luas will take about 10 minutes but certainly no more than 15. Of course if you’re adding waiting time for changing trams then that’s a different story.

The Luas: Badly designed?

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