Evidence that loyalist paramilitaries were being controlled by mi5

Ffff221 · 14-03-2021 9:08pm #1

The Stevens inquiry an official British government inquiry set up after pressure from Europe about collusion, during his investigations, Stevens and his team arrested 210 paramilitary suspects, of whom, he said, 207 were MI5 agents.

During his investigation his offices and all his files burnt down in a mysterious fire, he was told by a senior RUC officer that the FRU had most likely done this (the main agency running agents in Northern Ireland) which despite being sent to investigate collusion he never even heard about the main agency responsible for it.

In relation to the Dublin Monaghan bombings At the time of the bombings, Colin Wallace was a
top British Intelligence Corps officer and a psychological warfare specialist at the British Army's Northern Ireland headquarters. Since his resignation in 1975, he has exposed scandals involving the security forces, including state collusion with loyalists and most famous of all he exposed the kincora boys scandal years before anyone else even mentioned it, He gave evidence to the Barron Inquiry

In an August 1975 letter to Tony Stoughton, chief of the British Army Information Service in Northern Ireland, Wallace writes:

There is good evidence the Dublin bombings in May last year were a reprisal for the Irish government's role in bringing about the [power sharing] Executive. According to one of Craig's people [Craig Smellie, the top MI6 officer in Northern Ireland], most of those involved – the Youngs, the Jacksons, Mulholland, Hanna, Kerr and McConnell – were working closely with [Special Branch] and [Military Intelligence] at that time. Craig's people believe the sectarian assassinations were designed to destroy Rees's attempts to negotiate a ceasefire, and the targets were identified for both sides by [Intelligence/Special Branch]. They also believe some very senior RUC officers were involved with this group. In short, it would appear that loyalist paramilitaries and [Intelligence/Special Branch] have formed some sort of pseudo gangs in an attempt to fight a war of attrition against the IRA by getting paramilitaries on both sides to kill each other and at the same time prevent any future political initiative.

In a further letter of September 1975, Wallace wrote that MI5 was backing a group of UVF hardliners who opposed the UVF's move toward politics. He added:

I believe most of the sectarian violence generated during the later part of the year was caused by some of the new [Intelligence] people deliberately stirring up the conflict. As you know, we have never been allowed to target the breakaway UVF, nor the UFF, during the past year. Yet they have killed more people than the IRA!
;
Mod Note: Please provide links to assist other posters to discuss.

Ffff221 · 14-03-2021 9:13pm

Hyff

U2erthy · 14-03-2021 9:15pm

Mi5 also had about 50 spies in the Ira
There's about 20 now still in it

Former police officer infiltrated New IRA’s high command over last eight years, it has emerged
Dennis McFadden infiltrated the New IRA’s high command over the last eight years, providing safe houses in Northern Ireland and Scotland that were in fact bugged by the Security Service while handing out free tickets for Celtic matches and drinks from the bar in his home.He played a central role in MI5’s Operation Arbacia, which culminated at the end of this summer with the arrest of nine suspected leading New IRA members, all of whom have been charged with directing acts of terrorism.The nine suspected New IRA figures charged with directing terrorism are Kevin Barry Murphy,50, Davy Jordan, 49, Damien McLaughlin, 44, Gary Hayden, 48, Joe Barr, 44, Shea Reynolds , 26, Paddy McDaid, 50, Sharon Jordan, 45, and Mandy Duffy, 49.10th suspect, Issam Bassalat, 62, a Palestinian doctor based in Scotland, has also been arrested and stands accused of preparation of terrorist acts. He was arrested at Heathrow airport in August. Bassalat claims he only made contact with republicans in Northern Ireland because he thought he was going over to speak at a Palestinian solidarity meeting in County Tyrone.McFadden had been an MI5 agent for more than two decades, initially infiltrating Sinn Féin and then, on orders from his handlers, making contact with violent republican dissidents shortly after the New IRA was founded in 2012As well as the arrests and the eventual presence of McFadden in the witness box to give evidence, his main achievement has been to sow paranoia and distrust within what is left of the New IRA,” the senior security source said. “The dissidents in Derry no longer trust the ones in Belfast and Tyrone who brought McFadden into their organisation. There are accusations of other informers in their ranks now. In terms of terrorist operations thwarted, captured weapons and good hard intelligence on this organisation, McFadden has dealt their morale a massive blow.”

Del.Monte · 14-03-2021 9:53pm

U2erthy wrote: »

Mi5 also had about 50 spies in the Ira
There's about 20 now still in it

Former police officer infiltrated New IRA’s high command over last eight years, it has emerged
Dennis McFadden infiltrated the New IRA’s high command over the last eight years, providing safe houses in Northern Ireland and Scotland that were in fact bugged by the Security Service while handing out free tickets for Celtic matches and drinks from the bar in his home.He played a central role in MI5’s Operation Arbacia, which culminated at the end of this summer with the arrest of nine suspected leading New IRA members, all of whom have been charged with directing acts of terrorism.The nine suspected New IRA figures charged with directing terrorism are Kevin Barry Murphy,50, Davy Jordan, 49, Damien McLaughlin, 44, Gary Hayden, 48, Joe Barr, 44, Shea Reynolds , 26, Paddy McDaid, 50, Sharon Jordan, 45, and Mandy Duffy, 49.10th suspect, Issam Bassalat, 62, a Palestinian doctor based in Scotland, has also been arrested and stands accused of preparation of terrorist acts. He was arrested at Heathrow airport in August. Bassalat claims he only made contact with republicans in Northern Ireland because he thought he was going over to speak at a Palestinian solidarity meeting in County Tyrone.McFadden had been an MI5 agent for more than two decades, initially infiltrating Sinn Féin and then, on orders from his handlers, making contact with violent republican dissidents shortly after the New IRA was founded in 2012As well as the arrests and the eventual presence of McFadden in the witness box to give evidence, his main achievement has been to sow paranoia and distrust within what is left of the New IRA,” the senior security source said. “The dissidents in Derry no longer trust the ones in Belfast and Tyrone who brought McFadden into their organisation. There are accusations of other informers in their ranks now. In terms of terrorist operations thwarted, captured weapons and good hard intelligence on this organisation, McFadden has dealt their morale a massive blow.”

You could try using paragraphs if you want anybody to read all that - and a few links!

Ffff221 · 14-03-2021 10:16pm

Ffff221 wrote: »

The Stevens inquiry an official British government inquiry set up after pressure from Europe about collusion, during his investigations, Stevens and his team arrested 210 paramilitary suspects, of whom, he said, 207 were MI5 agents.

During his investigation his offices and all his files burnt down in a mysterious fire, he was told by a senior RUC officer that the FRU had most likely done this (the main agency running agents in Northern Ireland) which despite being sent to investigate collusion he never even heard about the main agency responsible for it.

In relation to the Dublin Monaghan bombings At the time of the bombings, Colin Wallace was a
top British Intelligence Corps officer and a psychological warfare specialist at the British Army's Northern Ireland headquarters. Since his resignation in 1975, he has exposed scandals involving the security forces, including state collusion with loyalists and most famous of all he exposed the kincora boys scandal years before anyone else even mentioned it, He gave evidence to the Barron Inquiry

In an August 1975 letter to Tony Stoughton, chief of the British Army Information Service in Northern Ireland, Wallace writes:

There is good evidence the Dublin bombings in May last year were a reprisal for the Irish government's role in bringing about the [power sharing] Executive. According to one of Craig's people [Craig Smellie, the top MI6 officer in Northern Ireland], most of those involved – the Youngs, the Jacksons, Mulholland, Hanna, Kerr and McConnell – were working closely with [Special Branch] and [Military Intelligence] at that time. Craig's people believe the sectarian assassinations were designed to destroy Rees's attempts to negotiate a ceasefire, and the targets were identified for both sides by [Intelligence/Special Branch]. They also believe some very senior RUC officers were involved with this group. In short, it would appear that loyalist paramilitaries and [Intelligence/Special Branch] have formed some sort of pseudo gangs in an attempt to fight a war of attrition against the IRA by getting paramilitaries on both sides to kill each other and at the same time prevent any future political initiative.

In a further letter of September 1975, Wallace wrote that MI5 was backing a group of UVF hardliners who opposed the UVF's move toward politics. He added:

I believe most of the sectarian violence generated during the later part of the year was caused by some of the new [Intelligence] people deliberately stirring up the conflict. As you know, we have never been allowed to target the breakaway UVF, nor the UFF, during the past year. Yet they have killed more people than the IRA!

This here is the weirdest thing about M15 in Ireland I seen in the previous 15 years https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=SxszWn367pY

The informer was revealed for something else but there is a family who say their son (Brendan McFadden) is innocent and was wrongly convicted in a non jury trial for shooting a police officer in 2009.

The family started a justice watch and the MI5 agent was the one running the whole campaign appealing the conviction controlling all social media even refusing to give them the passwords.

The family didn't know he was anything to do with the IRA they're quoted saying in the video how nice they thought he was to volunteer and come all the way from Scotland to run our campaign and provide all these resources little did we know this was the hand of MI5.

Ffff221 · 14-03-2021 10:18pm

Anyway that's mediocre compared to what was going on during the troubles it's just weird to think about.

14-03-2021 10:21pm

Why are you quoting yourself in your replies?

Ffff221 · 14-03-2021 10:23pm

Dav010 wrote: »

Why are you quoting yourself in your replies?

I made a mistake I meant to reply to the one underneath.

Terry136 · 15-03-2021 2:02pm

Anyone who has read into the troubles knows that at least a sizeable portion of loyalist killings were proxy killings by the intelligence services.

Ffff221 · 15-03-2021 10:03pm

Yes

Manach · 16-03-2021 12:32am

MOD Note:
@ Ffff221.
Having two accounts post on the same thread violates the spirit of the History forum charter. Hence, please do not post on this thread again.

BalcombeSt4 · 16-03-2021 9:24am

I am a Republican but this is really old news.

Brit Int was using Republicans as early as 1972 in the MRF with Cahill & Wright.
Or the Psy-ops with McGrogan & Heatherington, who were not militants but were hoods who under went training in explosives, and in anti-interrogation techniques in Susex, an they were sent back North into the prisons to spread dis-information, like when they pretend to break under Darkys interrogation & they started naming names who were of people also involved,but then later he went to the IRA leadership in prison & told them they had given names of people not involved informing to help spread paranoia & confusion in the jails.

Which was not exactly running the IRA but was a good way of manipulating them.

riffmongous · 16-03-2021 12:46pm

BalcombeSt4 wrote: »

I am a Republican but this is really old news.

Brit Int was using Republicans as early as 1972 in the MRF with Cahill & Wright.
Or the Psy-ops with McGrogan & Heatherington, who were not militants but were hoods who under went training in explosives, and in anti-interrogation techniques in Susex, an they were sent back North into the prisons to spread dis-information, like when they pretend to break under Darkys interrogation & they started naming names who were of people also involved,but then later he went to the IRA leadership in prison & told them they had given names of people not involved informing to help spread paranoia & confusion in the jails.

Which was not exactly running the IRA but was a good way of manipulating them.

What's the source for those Balcombe? The Dirty War?

BalcombeSt4 · 17-03-2021 1:32am

riffmongous wrote: »

What's the source for those Balcombe? The Dirty War?

Boston College tapes. It's in ED Moloney's "Voices from the Grave Book" on Hughes which I have in font of me. It nwas a couple of weeks after the first H-Block went up. Hughes said it was a way of softening the pows up before the new Maze system. McGrogan told Hughes that his mission was to poison top Republicans in prison, and this was just after Lenny Murphy poisoned his cell mate.

As a Republican just thinking about it gives me chills more than the MRF, E4A, SAS or the Glenanne Gang.

Just to clarify I'm not a dissident Republican I just believe in some of the core Republican values (some) & defend the wars (1969 - 98) , (1919 -23) & (36 - 39)

in general.

Edgware · 17-03-2021 12:07pm

Terry136 wrote: »

Anyone who has read into the troubles knows that at least a sizeable portion of loyalist killings were proxy killings by the intelligence services.

"At least a sizeable" That many?

Del.Monte · 17-03-2021 8:41pm

BalcombeSt4 wrote: »

Boston College tapes. It's in ED Moloney's "Voices from the Grave Book" on Hughes which I have in font of me. It nwas a couple of weeks after the first H-Block went up. Hughes said it was a way of softening the pows up before the new Maze system. McGrogan told Hughes that his mission was to poison top Republicans in prison, and this was just after Lenny Murphy poisoned his cell mate.

As a Republican just thinking about it gives me chills more than the MRF, E4A, SAS or the Glenanne Gang.

Just to clarify I'm not a dissident Republican I just believe in some of the core Republican values (some) & defend the wars (1969 - 98) , (1919 -23) & (36 - 39)

in general.

Does the 1956/62 Border Campaign not rate inclusion in your list of "wars"?

BalcombeSt4 · 18-03-2021 1:39pm

Del.Monte wrote: »

Does the 1956/62 Border Campaign not rate inclusion in your list of "wars"?

No, just like I couldn't defend 42-44 or 39, it's not my list either, it's histories wars, unless your implying the ones I mentioned never took place.

Del.Monte · 18-03-2021 3:02pm

BalcombeSt4 wrote: »

No, just like I couldn't defend 42-44 or 39, it's not my list either, it's histories wars, unless your implying the ones I mentioned never took place.

Well, the 'wars' you quote are not what I would regard as wars but then I'm not a republican in any sense of the the word.

Mick Tator · 18-03-2021 3:25pm

Del.Monte wrote: »

Well,........ then I'm not a republican in any sense of the the word.

Neither are most of the self-styled Republicans in Ireland. Too many of them have hijacked the term, just as they hijacked the language.

BalcombeSt4 · 18-03-2021 6:57pm

Del.Monte wrote: »

Well, the 'wars' you quote are not what I would regard as wars but then I'm not a republican in any sense of the the word.

Well that's fine, it's not as if you or me regarding them as wars or not is going to be a Earth shattering decision for anyone

But they are regarded by most people who lived through it like my mother & grandparents, British Army Generals, British Army Commanders, Sergeants, Majors etc..,British politicians, Loyalist leaders & brigadiers , IRA Commanders & Chief of Staffs, along with journalists who reported on it Peter Taylor, Mark Urban, Henry McDonald, Ed Moloney, Joe Tiernan etc... .

I mean the US at the time didn't regard (at least in public) Korea or Vietnam as wars. The US & British referred to Iraq, Libya & Afghanistan as "interventions"

BalcombeSt4 · 16-04-2021 6:21pm

Mick Tator wrote: »

Neither are most of the self-styled Republicans in Ireland. Too many of them have hijacked the term, just as they hijacked the language.

I would strongly agree with that, I'm not sure about most but certainly a large portion of self-styled Republicans would not have a clue about the origins of Irish Republicanism, never mind Republicanism in different states (ie Roman or French Republicanism) or different types of Republics, (soviet, people's, constitutional, Islamic etc).

steddyeddy · 16-04-2021 8:57pm

Del.Monte wrote: »

Well, the 'wars' you quote are not what I would regard as wars but then I'm not a republican in any sense of the the word.

Jesus Del it's far from republican thinking. I lived in Portsmouth and Southampton for a while. I knew a lot of ex service men who served in NI. Every one of them referred to it as a war. I think it's much more of a political statement not calling them a war than to call them a war.

Edgware · 17-04-2021 7:21pm

steddyeddy wrote: »

Jesus Del it's far from republican thinking. I lived in Portsmouth and Southampton for a while. I knew a lot of ex service men who served in NI. Every one of them referred to it as a war. I think it's much more of a political statement not calling them a war than to call them a war.

As regards the Border campaign in the 50s can you really call blowing up phone boxes and customs posts a war?

BalcombeSt4 · 17-04-2021 7:41pm

steddyeddy wrote: »

Jesus Del it's far from republican thinking. I lived in Portsmouth and Southampton for a while. I knew a lot of ex service men who served in NI. Every one of them referred to it as a war. I think it's much more of a political statement not calling them a war than to call them a war.

I agree.

Same thing with the War of Independence/Anglo-Irish War. Britain refused to accept that they were fighting a Irish guerrilla army backed by a elected Irish assembly.

A year later some of those who were being denied belligerent status by the British during the Tan War did the same thing to the guerrillas they were fighting in the Civil War & used all the powers of the state apparatus to carry out the most vicious terror campaign in Ireland during the 20th century.

Same is true of other state forces vs non-state combatants during the 20th century, most evident in the resistance campaigns against the Axis powers in WW2.

Del.Monte · 17-04-2021 10:40pm

From where I'm coming from I view everything from 1916 onwards, and further back if you wish, as insurgencies rather than wars.

steddyeddy · 18-04-2021 9:43am

Del.Monte wrote: »

From where I'm coming from I view everything from 1916 onwards, and further back if you wish, as insurgencies rather than wars.

No offence meant here but based on your previous posts I would say your opinion isn't really based on the facts but rather based on a political leaning. Therefore, I don't think arguing with you on this issue would be productive or something to take seriously.

Del.Monte · 18-04-2021 11:54am

steddyeddy wrote: »

No offence meant here but based on your previous posts I would say your opinion isn't really based on the facts but rather based on a political leaning. Therefore, I don't think arguing with you on this issue would be productive or something to take seriously.

According to Wiki and other sources, an insurgency is a violent, armed rebellion against authority when those taking part in the rebellion are not recognized as belligerents (lawful combatants).

Anyway, having lived through the recent "troubles" as an interested observer from their onset in 1969/70 I think that I'm well placed to say whether it was a war or an insurgency. Anyway, as you say, there's little point in arguing about it.

steddyeddy · 18-04-2021 12:08pm

Del.Monte wrote: »

According to Wiki and other sources, an insurgency is a violent, armed rebellion against authority when those taking part in the rebellion are not recognized as belligerents (lawful combatants).

Anyway, having lived through the recent "troubles" as an interested observer from their onset in 1969/70 I think that I'm well placed to say whether it was a war or an insurgency.

Well again based on your previous posts I don't think you're well placed. As I say no offence meant but I think you're likely too entrenched to be objective.

I have had many members of my family involved in the troubles. Those who organised the first civil rights marches and acted in negotiations for example.

I struggle to see how the troubles was anything but a civil war. What would the UVF, UDA be rebelling against exactly.

Also according to wiki and many other sources the IRA were belligerents.

BalcombeSt4 · 22-04-2021 7:39pm

Del.Monte wrote: »

From where I'm coming from I view everything from 1916 onwards, and further back if you wish, as insurgencies rather than wars.

That's your prerogative to do so.

What would you say is the difference between a guerrilla war & a guerrilla insurgency?

If WW1 never took place & Carsons UVF carried out the violent threats they made to resist basically devo-max what would that have been?

BalcombeSt4 · 22-04-2021 7:51pm

Del.Monte wrote: »

According to Wiki and other sources, an insurgency is a violent, armed rebellion against authority when those taking part in the rebellion are not recognized as belligerents (lawful combatants).

Anyway, having lived through the recent "troubles" as an interested observer from their onset in 1969/70 I think that I'm well placed to say whether it was a war or an insurgency. Anyway, as you say, there's little point in arguing about it.

My mother viewed them from the onset as well, she lived in Strabane from 1967 - 1981, the first person she seen get shot & klled was a deaf mute called Eammon McDevit who was shot in the back because he couldn't hear the soldier shouting.

It's a pretty famous case

18 August 1971: Eamon McDevitt (28), a deaf mute Catholic civilian, shot during street disturbances by the British Army, Fountain Street. This incident was one of a number to feature in a European Court of Human Rights inter-state case

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Troubles_in_Strabane#1971

I also remember reading Strabane was the most bombed town in Europe in the 1970's.

What county did you observe the so called "Troubles" from, Armagh, Tyrone, Down etc...?

BalcombeSt4 · 22-04-2021 10:07pm

steddyeddy wrote: »

Well again based on your previous posts I don't think you're well placed. As I say no offence meant but I think you're likely too entrenched to be objective.

I have had many members of my family involved in the troubles. Those who organised the first civil rights marches and acted in negotiations for example.

I struggle to see how the troubles was anything but a civil war. What would the UVF, UDA be rebelling against exactly.

Also according to wiki and many other sources the IRA were belligerents.

I wouldn't call the Troubles a "civil war".
A Civil War implies that the sides involved are of equal strength. Like the Russian Civil War, which like the Troubles was also a 3-way conflict between The Bolsheviks (authoritarian socialists) , the Whites & the various Left-Wing Libertarian Socialist groups.

Remember the UVF, UDA, Orange Volunteers, Down Orange Welfare & Vanguard rebelled against the Suninngdale agreement in 1974 & it's height bombed Dublin & Monaghan killing 34 civilians & injured 300 others, and just 2 weeks before the Dublin bombs the UVF bombed a Nationalist pub in Belfast killing 6 civilians & injuring 30.
In total 49 Catholics were killed in the month of May 1974, making it the most deadly month of the conflict for civilians.

Manach · 22-04-2021 10:19pm

[Mod Note] This thread has been an informative and interesting thread. So just reminding that all posters are bound in an interest in these events from differing perspectives and so to avoid personalisation of discussions. Thanks.

Del.Monte · 22-04-2021 10:30pm

BalcombeSt4 wrote: »

That's your prerogative to do so.

What would you say is the difference between a guerrilla war & a guerrilla insurgency?

If WW1 never took place & Carsons UVF carried out the violent threats they made to resist basically devo-max what would that have been?

It would have been an act of rebellion i.e an insurgency.

Del.Monte · 22-04-2021 10:36pm

BalcombeSt4 wrote: »

My mother viewed them from the onset as well, she lived in Strabane from 1967 - 1981, the first person she seen get shot & klled was a deaf mute called Eammon McDevit who was shot in the back because he couldn't hear the soldier shouting.

It's a pretty famous case

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Troubles_in_Strabane#1971

I also remember reading Strabane was the most bombed town in Europe in the 1970's.

What county did you observe the so called "Troubles" from, Armagh, Tyrone, Down etc...?

Fermanagh, Down and Antrim but I lived in the Republic most of the time. Being an oldie, born in 1959, I followed everything that happened over the years closely especially since I had relations and friends living in the affected areas. Anyway, that's me out as I've dragged the thread off topic again.

BalcombeSt4 · 24-04-2021 5:58pm

Del.Monte wrote: »

Fermanagh, Down and Antrim but I lived in the Republic most of the time. Being an oldie, born in 1959, I followed everything that happened over the years closely especially since I had relations and friends living in the affected areas. Anyway, that's me out as I've dragged the thread off topic again.

That's interesting.

So I doubt you'd be old enough to remember the "Border Campaign" do you recall the 64 Divis flag riots or the UVF's original 66 campaign, if their was tension around that & the 50th anniversary of 1916?

I remember visiting my cousins when I was in my early teens in Crossmaglen in the early 90's & I got no feeling that it was a dangerous place to be in or anything, although I wasn't very politically aware. And historically Crossmaglen wasn't dangerous for civilians, of course the place was virtually 100% nationalist so why would there be tension except with the British Army & RUC, who I do not remember seeing much of, this was in 1993 so maybe they were hiding from the snipers.

breezy1985 · 25-04-2021 1:12pm

Purely going off the definitions I can find on war the Troubles would seem to be quite clearly a civil war with an insurgency being more like what is currently happening in the Donbass

patsman07 · 25-04-2021 9:49pm

Anyone with an interest in the topic of collusion with loyalist paramilitaries could do worse than read 'The Stalker Affair' by John Stalker. It's a few years since I read it but from what I remember, Stalker was second in command in the Manchester Police Force and was asked to conduct an investigation into a number of murders of Catholics/Nationalists in the North where the victims families had alleged collusion. It's a fantastic read and leaves you in no doubt that people at the highest level of the British government intervened to stop Stalker getting to the truth.

steddyeddy · 02-05-2021 8:08am

patsman07 wrote: »

Anyone with an interest in the topic of collusion with loyalist paramilitaries could do worse than read 'The Stalker Affair' by John Stalker. It's a few years since I read it but from what I remember, Stalker was second in command in the Manchester Police Force and was asked to conduct an investigation into a number of murders of Catholics/Nationalists in the North where the victims families had alleged collusion. It's a fantastic read and leaves you in no doubt that people at the highest level of the British government intervened to stop Stalker getting to the truth.

John started out disbelieving the allegations that the British government were helping terrorists but changed his mind after the push back he received from those in the security forces.

ILoveYourVibes · 02-05-2021 8:47am

Manach wrote: »

MOD Note:
@ Ffff221.
Having two accounts post on the same thread violates the spirit of the History forum charter. Hence, please do not post on this thread again.

How come he is allowed two accounts?

BalcombeSt4 · 03-05-2021 5:27am

patsman07 wrote: »

Anyone with an interest in the topic of collusion with loyalist paramilitaries could do worse than read 'The Stalker Affair' by John Stalker. It's a few years since I read it but from what I remember, Stalker was second in command in the Manchester Police Force and was asked to conduct an investigation into a number of murders of Catholics/Nationalists in the North where the victims families had alleged collusion. It's a fantastic read and leaves you in no doubt that people at the highest level of the British government intervened to stop Stalker getting to the truth.

There were three sets of killings in the space of a month alleged to have been carried out by the RUC Mobile Support Unit. On the 11 November 1982 three IRA men were shot at a road block in east Lurgan, on the 24th November two civilians were shot in a farm near Lurgan and on the 12 December two INLA men were shot at a checkpoint in Mullacreavie, this one happened 6 days after the INLA bombed the Droppin Well pub in north Derry.

BalcombeSt4 · 17-05-2021 8:14pm

The Pat Finucane collusion murder scandal.

Investigation into Stevens inquiry.

thhh

Into the 1982 murders by RUC SPG of unarmed men

Douglas Hoggs commens about solicitors being to close to the IRA

Day after Finucane death

4 months later same UDA unit kill civilians again, this time 2 UDR arresed

UDA & UDR men in court

BalcombeSt4 · 11-06-2021 8:09pm

U2erthy wrote: »

Mi5 also had about 50 spies in the Ira
There's about 20 now still in it

Former police officer infiltrated New IRA’s high command over last eight years, it has emerged
Dennis McFadden infiltrated the New IRA’s high command over the last eight years, providing safe houses in Northern Ireland and Scotland that were in fact bugged by the Security Service while handing out free tickets for Celtic matches and drinks from the bar in his home.He played a central role in MI5’s Operation Arbacia, which culminated at the end of this summer with the arrest of nine suspected leading New IRA members, all of whom have been charged with directing acts of terrorism.The nine suspected New IRA figures charged with directing terrorism are Kevin Barry Murphy,50, Davy Jordan, 49, Damien McLaughlin, 44, Gary Hayden, 48, Joe Barr, 44, Shea Reynolds , 26, Paddy McDaid, 50, Sharon Jordan, 45, and Mandy Duffy, 49.10th suspect, Issam Bassalat, 62, a Palestinian doctor based in Scotland, has also been arrested and stands accused of preparation of terrorist acts. He was arrested at Heathrow airport in August. Bassalat claims he only made contact with republicans in Northern Ireland because he thought he was going over to speak at a Palestinian solidarity meeting in County Tyrone.McFadden had been an MI5 agent for more than two decades, initially infiltrating Sinn Féin and then, on orders from his handlers, making contact with violent republican dissidents shortly after the New IRA was founded in 2012As well as the arrests and the eventual presence of McFadden in the witness box to give evidence, his main achievement has been to sow paranoia and distrust within what is left of the New IRA,” the senior security source said. “The dissidents in Derry no longer trust the ones in Belfast and Tyrone who brought McFadden into their organisation. There are accusations of other informers in their ranks now. In terms of terrorist operations thwarted, captured weapons and good hard intelligence on this organisation, McFadden has dealt their morale a massive blow.”

Still? There is no IRA anymore, they've been on ceasefire since 1997, some members broke away & formed splinter groups but they are not the IRA.

11-06-2021 8:11pm

BalcombeSt4 wrote: »

Still? There is no IRA anymore, they've been on ceasefire since 1997, some members broke away & formed splinter groups but they are not the IRA.

The quote you are referencing refers to the new IRA, so that point is moot.

CaoimhinCong · 11-06-2021 8:16pm

BalcombeSt4 wrote: »

Still? There is no IRA anymore, they've been on ceasefire since 1997, some members broke away & formed splinter groups but they are not the IRA.

That's not entirely true. The provisional republican movement commenced a ceasefire it was broken several times. The Oglaigh na hEireann title rests with anyone who is willing to resist British occupation. I understand some johnny come latelys who are no more Republican then plots, but you need to remember in the army convention in 1997, 75% of the Quartermasters brigade staff walked some trusted and experienced men walked with mickey. Mi5 knew that by infiltrating RIRA at its birth would suffocate it before it had wings to fly. Omagh was its blanket it used, British hands were all over it.

guy2231 · 11-06-2021 8:24pm

CaoimhinCong wrote: »

That's not entirely true. The provisional republican movement commenced a ceasefire it was broken several times. The Oglaigh na hEireann title rests with anyone who is willing to resist British occupation. I understand some johnny come latelys who are no more Republican then plots, but you need to remember in the army convention in 1997, 75% of the Quartermasters brigade staff walked some trusted and experienced men walked with mickey. Mi5 knew that by infiltrating RIRA at its birth would suffocate it before it had wings to fly. Omagh was its blanket it used, British hands were all over it.

But not one of the so called "IRA" groups are actually resisting British occupation they have not killed a single soldier or even a police man they spend most of their time doing punishment shootings and have managed to kill a few drug dealers and civilians not one of them has or had the guts to take on the army or even a policeman except planting a bomb under some PSNI mans car and failing miserably.

None of these groups have the right to call themselves IRA.

CaoimhinCong · 11-06-2021 8:27pm

guy2231 wrote: »

But not one of the so called "IRA" groups are actually resisting British occupation they have not killed a single soldier or even a police man they spend most of their time doing punishment shootings and have managed to kill a few drug dealers and civilians not one of them has or had the guts to take on the army or even a policeman except planting a bomb under some PSNI mans car and failing miserably.

None of these groups have the right to call themselves IRA.

But they are taking a risk planting an underside that is more then when we are doing. I would never denegrate any organisation who is taking the risk day and daily.

BalcombeSt4 · 11-06-2021 8:45pm

CaoimhinCong wrote: »

That's not entirely true. The provisional republican movement commenced a ceasefire it was broken several times. The Oglaigh na hEireann title rests with anyone who is willing to resist British occupation. I understand some johnny come latelys who are no more Republican then plots, but you need to remember in the army convention in 1997, 75% of the Quartermasters brigade staff walked some trusted and experienced men walked with mickey. Mi5 knew that by infiltrating RIRA at its birth would suffocate it before it had wings to fly. Omagh was its blanket it used, British hands were all over it.

I disagree. Both the OIRA & PIRA had links to the 1920's IRA the current groups don't. I mean I was shocked at how shocked people were at the failed car bombing outside Derry courthouse 3 years ago. If that was the PIRA or INLA even the building would have been badly damaged, the car wasn't even that badly damaged.
I'm also surprised by the predictions that Brexit would see a return to the Troubles. Like you said Mi5 are all over them & so are the Guards, how are they going to smuggle pistols, revolvers, rifles, SMGs, GPMGs, HMGs, explosives, RPGs & grenades into Ireland? Hate or love the PIRA they had very clever people working for them, these clowns pretending to be the IRA are idiots.

For a similar example.
The IRA claimed in 1938 to be the legit government of all Ireland even tho their power extended from the bottom of the Atlantic ocean to nowhere. I don't think anyone took that claim seriously just like most don't take the New IRA seriously. I mean the word "New" suggests they have no claim to the old.

Are you saying Mi5 let Omagh happen? Not disputing or approving the claim, just wondering.

Also, I mean the IRA never broke their 1997 ceasefire against the British Army or RUC/PSNi or against Loyalists, they might have shot other nationalists but I don't think that counts, at least not the same way they broke their 1994 ceasefire by blowing up Canary Wharf, Manchester & Lisburn barracks. The INLA shot some RUC, LVF & UDA people in 1997 & 1998 but other than the RIRA bombs that was it as far as "original" republican guerrillas go.

guy2231 · 11-06-2021 9:45pm

BalcombeSt4 wrote: »

I disagree. Both the OIRA & PIRA had links to the 1920's IRA the current groups don't. I mean I was shocked at how shocked people were at the failed car bombing outside Derry courthouse 3 years ago. If that was the PIRA or INLA even the building would have been badly damaged, the car wasn't even that badly damaged.
I'm also surprised by the predictions that Brexit would see a return to the Troubles. Like you said Mi5 are all over them & so are the Guards, how are they going to smuggle pistols, revolvers, rifles, SMGs, GPMGs, HMGs, explosives, RPGs & grenades into Ireland? Hate or love the PIRA they had very clever people working for them, these clowns pretending to be the IRA are idiots.

For a similar example.
The IRA claimed in 1938 to be the legit government of all Ireland even tho their power extended from the bottom of the Atlantic ocean to nowhere. I don't think anyone took that claim seriously just like most don't take the New IRA seriously. I mean the word "New" suggests they have no claim to the old.

Are you saying Mi5 let Omagh happen? Not disputing or approving the claim, just wondering.

Also, I mean the IRA never broke their 1997 ceasefire against the British Army or RUC/PSNi or against Loyalists, they might have shot other nationalists but I don't think that counts, at least not the same way they broke their 1994 ceasefire by blowing up Canary Wharf, Manchester & Lisburn barracks. The INLA shot some RUC, LVF & UDA people in 1997 & 1998 but other than the RIRA bombs that was it as far as "original" republican guerrillas go.

The RIRA definitely did not mean to kill a bunch of civilians anyone with half knowledge would know that this was the worst thing that could have happened to the RIRA and the last thing they would have wanted was civilian casualties they lost 90% of the support they had it was a worst case scenario it was a standard car bombing meant to damage infrastructure like thousannds of PIRA bombings did without casualties.

The bomb to end all bomb theory is a vague theory that could mean they made this bombing happen to end dissident republicanism before it even started in a number of ways.

CaoimhinCong · 11-06-2021 9:53pm

BalcombeSt4 wrote: »

I disagree. Both the OIRA & PIRA had links to the 1920's IRA the current groups don't. I mean I was shocked at how shocked people were at the failed car bombing outside Derry courthouse 3 years ago. If that was the PIRA or INLA even the building would have been badly damaged, the car wasn't even that badly damaged.
I'm also surprised by the predictions that Brexit would see a return to the Troubles. Like you said Mi5 are all over them & so are the Guards, how are they going to smuggle pistols, revolvers, rifles, SMGs, GPMGs, HMGs, explosives, RPGs & grenades into Ireland? Hate or love the PIRA they had very clever people working for them, these clowns pretending to be the IRA are idiots.

For a similar example.
The IRA claimed in 1938 to be the legit government of all Ireland even tho their power extended from the bottom of the Atlantic ocean to nowhere. I don't think anyone took that claim seriously just like most don't take the New IRA seriously. I mean the word "New" suggests they have no claim to the old.

Are you saying Mi5 let Omagh happen? Not disputing or approving the claim, just wondering.

Also, I mean the IRA never broke their 1997 ceasefire against the British Army or RUC/PSNi or against Loyalists, they might have shot other nationalists but I don't think that counts, at least not the same way they broke their 1994 ceasefire by blowing up Canary Wharf, Manchester & Lisburn barracks. The INLA shot some RUC, LVF & UDA people in 1997 & 1998 but other than the RIRA bombs that was it as far as "original" republican guerrillas go.

OK I'm gonna answer the most relevant points as yours is a big ****er of a post haha.

Firstly the NIRA have 3 of the most senior republicans to enter the fray after the border campaign. In 97 MMcK wwe quartermaster and was An elective to the AC, he walked and he took 3 of the council with him along with other members. At that time the POWs were lingering and didn't know where their loyalties were.

I don't hate the PIRA, I walked from Sinn fein in 2005 when Seanna walsh read the statement from the army as it was then a constitutional nationalist party, we lost our bargaining chip. The only reason the Border poll is on the table is because of Brexit.

The PRM and the RSM were highly skilled and had a lot more personnel so compairings attacks doesn't really hold weight. The NIRA and the RIRA before them were born into a highly motivated intelligence state after years of IRA activity, which made it harder to operate.

When I was in Belfast in 70s 80s and 90s I moved to the republic in 2002, operations happened in broad daylight. Volunteers engages the Brits on the streets you cannot do that now as appetite is gone for trouble. People are terrified of supporting republicans as the Brits are one step ahead or have them heavily infiltrated a bit of both I believe.

Currently the NIRA alleged AC is in maghaberry and the Laois, these men and women along with a few others in North Armagh and Derry aren't idiots these are men and women who have lived every day of their life for the implementation of an Irish republic, to disrespect them like such is a disgrace.

The NIRA were an amalgamation of the reals, RAAd and the ET brigade (the et were the most efficient to the level of south armagh) you cannot be serious when you speak so flippantly about them. I'm not saying every member of the NIRA is on par with Bobby sands, Joe McKelvey, Joe Cahill but there is people there who are.

The Brits DID allow Omagh they communicated a different message from switchboard to officers on the ground and walked the people into the explosion. It was infiltrated by a tout and ramped up by the Brits.

The IRA broke the ceasefire on a number of occasions regarding ops in the districts.

guy2231 · 11-06-2021 10:09pm

CaoimhinCong wrote: »

OK I'm gonna answer the most relevant points as yours is a big ****er of a post haha.

Firstly the NIRA have 3 of the most senior republicans to enter the fray after the border campaign. In 97 MMcK wwe quartermaster and was An elective to the AC, he walked and he took 3 of the council with him along with other members. At that time the POWs were lingering and didn't know where their loyalties were.

I don't hate the PIRA, I walked from Sinn fein in 2005 when Seanna walsh read the statement from the army as it was then a constitutional nationalist party, we lost our bargaining chip. The only reason the Border poll is on the table is because of Brexit.

The PRM and the RSM were highly skilled and had a lot more personnel so compairings attacks doesn't really hold weight. The NIRA and the RIRA before them were born into a highly motivated intelligence state after years of IRA activity, which made it harder to operate.

When I was in Belfast in 70s 80s and 90s I moved to the republic in 2002, operations happened in broad daylight. Volunteers engages the Brits on the streets you cannot do that now as appetite is gone for trouble. People are terrified of supporting republicans as the Brits are one step ahead or have them heavily infiltrated a bit of both I believe.

Currently the NIRA alleged AC is in maghaberry and the Laois, these men and women along with a few others in North Armagh and Derry aren't idiots these are men and women who have lived every day of their life for the implementation of an Irish republic, to disrespect them like such is a disgrace.

The NIRA were an amalgamation of the reals, RAAd and the ET brigade (the et were the most efficient to the level of south armagh) you cannot be serious when you speak so flippantly about them. I'm not saying every member of the NIRA is on par with Bobby sands, Joe McKelvey, Joe Cahill but there is people there who are.

The Brits DID allow Omagh they communicated a different message from switchboard to officers on the ground and walked the people into the explosion. It was infiltrated by a tout and ramped up by the Brits.

The IRA broke the ceasefire on a number of occasions regarding ops in the districts.

I don't have much respech for the New IRA if they want respect they are going to have to earn it just calling yourself IRA does not mean you automatically get respect.

Unfortunately for them knee capping drug dealers and killing civilians by accident and proving they are not willing to risk their lives while also probably making a few bob does not get much respect or support from people.

CaoimhinCong · 11-06-2021 10:13pm

guy2231 wrote: »

I don't have much respech for the New IRA if they want respect they are going to have to earn it just calling yourself IRA does not mean you automatically get respect.

Unfortunately for them knee capping drug dealers and killing civilians by accident and proving they are not willing to risk their lives while also probably making a few bob does not get much respect or support for people.

Christy Robinson? Harry Fitz ? Colly Duffy? Alex McCrory? Paddy McDaid? Kevin Braney? Kevin Hannaway? Mandy Duffy?

Some absolutely staunch republicans currently charged with alleged NIRA activity I could name a load more. These arent criminals or johnny come latelys.

Evidence that loyalist paramilitaries were being controlled by mi5

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