75 years ago today....

Timberrrrrrrr · 14-02-2020 1:11am

Blaze420 wrote: »

Why would I? Last time I checked we are living in Ireland. We are talking hypothetical situations here and you’ve already stated you wouldn’t have the resolve to do it - I said I would.

I have killed before in war, I know what I am capable of and if I needed to do it again I know I would.

You have typed words on a screen talking tough and acting as if you would wipe out ISIS yourself like some.modern day Rambo.

14-02-2020 1:15am

Padre_Pio wrote: »

By that logic we are all responsible for the decades of child abuse, murder and rape from the Cathoic church.

We all deserve prison.

As a people, we can’t wash our hands of that. As a people, yes, we’re to blame. Blindly or ignorantly following men in black uniforms, doing what they say, accepting that their authority is bestowed upon them by a higher power? While the truth spread in whispered conversations, knowing glances but was never spoken out by those who would later profess they had no part to play in anything?

Doesn’t that ring a bell?!

Blaze420 · 14-02-2020 1:16am

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

I have killed before in war, I know what I am capable of and if I needed to do it again I know I would.

You have typed words on a screen talking tough and acting as if you would wipe out ISIS yourself like some.modern day Rambo.

Yeah sure you have pal, this is the internet so I fully believe you.....you are nothing but a handle just like me, exchanging views. You are a milkman for all I care and I’d expect the same in return.

Timberrrrrrrr · 14-02-2020 1:22am

Blaze420 wrote: »

Yeah sure you have pal, this is the internet so I fully believe you.....you are nothing but a handle just like me, exchanging views. You are a milkman for all I care and I’d expect the same in return.

I've been on here years, I have told my story many times. Believe me/dont believe me, I couldn't care less. Your posting history in this thread is there for all to see, a keyboard warrior who talks tough but would run a mile from a fist fight never mind a war.

BonnieSituation · 14-02-2020 1:22am

Jessa Green Roadway wrote: »

On a point of order, the reason Nagasaki was bombed was because there was cloud cover over Kokura. The bomb also missed its intended (secondary) target in Nagasaki so the destruction wasn’t as much as planned.

Hiroshima was spared from previous fire bombing campaigns because it earmarked as a target city for an atomic bomb. Tokyo could also have been spared had it been earmarked too.

The letters from local Lieutenants asking "why is Hiroshima not being targeted in the firebombing campaigns" is chilling and terrifying to read. They had no idea what was coming.

The biggest disgrace was that after bombing Hiroshima and seeing what they had done they decided 3 days later to do it again to Nagasaki.

The Atomic/Peace museum in Hiroshima is an astounding place.

Blaze420 · 14-02-2020 1:23am

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

I've been on here years, I have told my story many times. Believe me/dont believe me, I couldn't care less. Your posting history in this thread is there for all to see, a keyboard warrior who talks tough but would run a mile from a fist fight never mind a war.

You know absolutely nothing about me so don’t make assumptions based on text

14-02-2020 1:25am

Blaze420 wrote: »

Yeah sure you have pal, this is the internet so I fully believe you.....you are nothing but a handle just like me, exchanging views. You are a milkman for all I care and I’d expect the same in return.

Nah, he’s been there and done that I’m sure.

Gas though the way people who have done tough things think so many others couldn’t or wouldn’t.

Nobody thinks it would be easy, but then again, the armies of WW2 had plenty of milkmen and bakers, plumbers and teachers going out to shoot and bomb each other, and nobody was on the internet in those days making out that it’s something special or uniquely difficult to do when it really came down to it.

The vast majority of us would kill if that’s what it came to, no doubt about it. I would for sure and I don’t think I’d feel half as bad about is some would like to think I should.

WW2 German city obliterated by fire bombing, nearly 6 years into the war? Boo boo.

Turtwig · 14-02-2020 1:27am

The episode of game of thrones "the bells" is heavily influenced by this event. Dresden was horrific to put it nicely.

Timberrrrrrrr · 14-02-2020 1:28am

Blaze420 wrote: »

You know absolutely nothing about me so don’t make assumptions based on text

I dont need to know "you", I know your type! Talking tough while sitting at home, pathetic.

Go back to playing call of duty, leave the fighting to those who have the guts.

Spook_ie · 14-02-2020 1:30am

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

Would you have been ok if the R.A.F had decided to bomb parts of Belfast/Derry in the 70's?

If they had been invaded by the Nazis via Dublin and the republic then yeah, Harland and Wolfe would have been a prime target as would likely Cork, Waterford and Dublin ports.

14-02-2020 1:45am

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

I dont need to know "you", I know your type! Talking tough while sitting at home, pathetic.

Go back to playing call of duty, leave the fighting to those who have the guts.

Yawn.

StupidLikeAFox · 14-02-2020 1:53am

JayZeus wrote: »

Dresden is not part of Northern Ireland. Assuming that’s what ‘the North’ refers to.

I’ll tell you now though, if Northern Ireland annexed Donegal and went to war with the Republic of Ireland for 5 years, all the while murdering innocent people in death camps over the border in Lifford and dropping rockets on Dublin and then one night it was blanket fire bombed and levelled, killing every man woman and child in it, I’d lose no sleep over it. I wouldn’t cry foul and I’d shed no tears about it.

What if you were on the other side? For example, if Ireland was involved in a World War atrocities and the bombs started raining down on your town or city, would you be content that you were part of the problem because you happened to live in Ireland?

Skylinehead · 14-02-2020 2:11am

Mod: JayZeus and Blaze420 don't post in this thread again.

Words almost fail me.

SeanW · 14-02-2020 8:15am

JayZeus wrote: »

Great pictures and I genuinely take some satisfaction from knowing that many German civilians suffered terrible deaths during those bombings. They had plenty of blood on their hands as a people by then and very few were innocent or had no role to play in their war effort, or the suffering of those sent to their deaths in the camps.

Spectacular stuff.

Wonderful. Not only is this screed psychopathic and devoid of humanity, it also totally ignorant of history.

I suggest you read a history book about World War 1, the Treaty of Versailles and conditions in Germany in the interwar period. Or maybe just spend a few minutes on Wikipedia.

Firstly, over half a million German civilians had died of starvation and other causes due to a naval blockade that prevented Germany from importing even foodstuffs and other civilian supplies during World War I. Second, the terms of the peace were a disaster - the German Empire had been abolished and a liberal democracy imposed in its place but with conditions of surrender so punitive that the new Weimar government had zero chance of success. Germany in the interwar period was in a state of near constant civil war with communists and later fascists trying to destroy it from within (the various Red/Communist armies were killing people right left and centre), but it was prevented from having a military capable of putting down the revolts. Nor was the Weimar military capable of responding to the invasion of the Ruhr in 1923 or otherwise protecting the Republic's territorial integrity.

It was against this background that Hitler rose to power - it would have been nearly impossible otherwise. And though I don't know the full details, AFAIK it is disputed how much the German people knew about about the Nazi genocides.

Osamabindipper · 14-02-2020 8:50am

Wow amazing pictures, unfortunately the world hasn't changed mutch since, this kinda thing still happening.

Wanderer78 · 14-02-2020 8:53am

We really can be the biggest arseholes on this planet at times, hopefully we never ever repeat these kind of actions

14-02-2020 9:43am

Osamabindipper wrote: »

Wow amazing pictures, unfortunately the world hasn't changed mutch since, this kinda thing still happening.

While I'm not defending their actions, where in modern history have we seen the intentional targeting of civilians during a war to the same level of Dresden or Tokyo? I'm 42 and in my lifetime, I can't recall any such scale of bombing.

CrankyHaus · 14-02-2020 9:46am

SeanW wrote: »

It was against this background that Hitler rose to power - it would have been nearly impossible otherwise. And though I don't know the full details, AFAIK it is disputed how much the German people knew about about the Nazi genocides.

They knew plenty about Kristallnacht and over a decade of persecution and dispossession of the Jews and other groups based on their race. They knew plenty about Germany's murderous wars of aggression where normal members of the Wehrmacht committed ample war crimes. In fact they enthusiastically engaged in and supported all of these things until they started losing the war.

The bombing of Dresden is a rallying cry for Nazi apologists. In fact it was a legitimate and necessary, albeit horrific, operation to win a murderous war Germany had begun and would not surrender in when it was clearly losing.

"The Nazis entered this war under the rather childish delusion that they were going to bomb everyone else, and nobody was going to bomb them. At Rotterdam, London, Warsaw, and half a hundred other places, they put their rather naive theory into operation. They sowed the wind, and now they are going to reap the whirlwind." -Arthur "Bomber" Harris, 1942

[Deleted User] wrote: »

While I'm not defending their actions, where in modern history have we seen the intentional targeting of civilians during a war to the same level of Dresden or Tokyo? I'm 42 and in my lifetime, I can't recall any such scale of bombing.

The US dropped several times the tonnage of ordnance on Vietnam that it did in all of WW2 and more on Korea then it did in the WW2 Pacific Theatre. Civilian losses were enormous.
They'd be doing the same today if precision guided munitions didn't make carpet bombing unnecessary.

Timberrrrrrrr · 14-02-2020 9:59am

[Deleted User] wrote: »

While I'm not defending their actions, where in modern history have we seen the intentional targeting of civilians during a war to the same level of Dresden or Tokyo? I'm 42 and in my lifetime, I can't recall any such scale of bombing.

Palestine would come closest imo, probably a contentious statement by me to make but the bombing by Israel in 2014 left nothing but rubble and civilians were targeted.

B.A._Baracus · 14-02-2020 10:04am

Ninthlife wrote: »

1200 planes, 4 tonnes of bombs and resulted in over 20,000 deaths

1200!?
Geez. That is insane. I wonder if anyone sarcastically said "think we have enough planes yet, guys?" - they really must have wanted to level that city. Which they did.

14-02-2020 10:07am

CrankyHaus wrote: »

They knew plenty about Kristallnacht and over a decade of persecution and dispossession of the Jews and other groups based on their race.

Plenty of countries during the same period expelled the Jews from their borders, or 'encouraged' them to leave. Anti-jewish sentiment existed in many European countries.

This is not a justification for German behavior.... but lets be a little bit more balanced and refrain from repeating the propaganda that the Allies have spread around about the War during and afterwards.

They knew plenty about Germany's murderous wars of aggression where normal members of the Wehrmacht committed ample war crimes. In fact they enthusiastically engaged in and supported all of these things until they started losing the war.

Really? Links please. Or are we talking about the invasion of Russia here?

Have you considered the feelings of people/nations of that time about Russia, and communism?

The bombing of Dresden is a rallying cry for Nazi apologists. In fact it was a legitimate and necessary, albeit horrific, operation to win a murderous war Germany had begun and would not surrender in when it was clearly losing.

It wasn't necessary though. Considering the scale of material and manpower that the allies had at their disposal, especially after the invasion of Russia, the outcome of the war wasn't in doubt. In any case, there's references around that show that the bombing didn't hamper the German industry that was directed towards the war effort. It was an attack aimed to increase the number of refugees and increase the demands on German supplies/resources. The intentional targeting of civilians.

We know that Hitler and the Nazi's were awful people with fcuked up intentions. It's just that some of us aren't particularly interested in wiping the slate clean for the allies who behaved abhorrently many times throughout and after the war.

"The Nazis entered this war under the rather childish delusion that they were going to bomb everyone else, and nobody was going to bomb them. At Rotterdam, London, Warsaw, and half a hundred other places, they put their rather naive theory into operation. They sowed the wind, and now they are going to reap the whirlwind." -Arthur "Bomber" Harris, 1942

Yup. But consider comparing the amount of bombs (and types of bombs dropped) between the allies and Germany. You'll quickly find that the Allies far outstripped the German capabilities to bomb a city or civilian area. Their airforce had not been developed/built with strategic bombing in mind, and their rockets did extremely little actual damage.

14-02-2020 10:11am

CrankyHaus wrote: »

The US dropped several times the tonnage of ordnance on Vietnam that it did in all of WW2 and more on Korea then it did in the WW2 Pacific Theatre. Civilian losses were enormous.
They'd be doing the same today if precision guided munitions didn't make carpet bombing unnecessary.

Were you alive during the Vietnam war? I wasn't. Hence, my remark about being 42, and not recalling anything similar during my lifetime.

Precision guided munitions have been shown to be rather inaccurate at times. If the intention was there, they'd still be carpet bombing.

Timberrrrrrrr wrote:

Palestine would come closest imo, probably a contentious statement by me to make but the bombing by Israel in 2014 left nothing but rubble and civilians were targeted.

Fair enough. Thanks.

CrankyHaus · 14-02-2020 10:40am

Deleted User wrote: »

Plenty of countries during the same period expelled the Jews from their borders, or 'encouraged' them to leave. Anti-jewish sentiment existed in many European countries.

This is not a justification for German behavior.... but lets be a little bit more balanced and refrain from repeating the propaganda that the Allies have spread around about the War during and afterwards.

Nazi Germany's uniquely extreme policies of racial persecution are a historical fact, not "Allied Propaganda". There is no equivalence between Nazi Germany and the racism and anti-semitism sadly common elsewhere at the time.

Deleted User wrote: »

Really? Links please. Or are we talking about the invasion of Russia here?

Wehrmacht war crimes are well documented historical fact and the "clean Wehrmacht" myth is well debunked by now outside of Nazi sympathiser circles. Asking for links puts you in company with those who demand "proof" that the holocaust occurred.

Here's a quick one anyway: https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-20698098

Deleted User wrote: »

Have you considered the feelings of people/nations of that time about Russia, and communism?

No idea what you're talking about here.

Deleted User wrote: »

It wasn't necessary though. Considering the scale of material and manpower that the allies had at their disposal, especially after the invasion of Russia, the outcome of the war wasn't in doubt.

The outcome of the war was very much in doubt after the invasion of Russia, which was expected to fall many times until the tide turned in 1943. Certainly by 1945 Germany could not win, but it would not surrender and continued to fight. How would you prosecute the last months of the war if strategic bombing was off the table? Tell tens, if not hundreds, of thousands of Allied troops that they'll have to take one for the team because Klaz thinks bombing is mean?

Deleted User wrote: »

In any case, there's references around that show that the bombing didn't hamper the German industry that was directed towards the war effort. It was an attack aimed to increase the number of refugees and increase the demands on German supplies/resources. The intentional targeting of civilians.

Dresden was a major industrial centre churning out war materiel. It was also a major logistics centre through which tens of thousands of German troops could move through daily to reinforce the front lines, sadly for the same reason it was full of refugees.

Strategic bombing's effect on German industry, at Dresden and elsewhere, was undeniable. However it was never the war winning weapon that the RAF and USAAAF promised it would be. The British approach of targeting civilian housing was flawed and morally difficult to defend but a realistic approach to their capabilities in 1941-1943. The US targeting of oil infrastructure and other bottlenecks was more effective but beyond their capabilities until 1944. In short it wasn't nice but in a total war against a genocidal enemy they didn't have anything better.

Deleted User wrote: »

We know that Hitler and the Nazi's were awful people with fcuked up intentions. It's just that some of us aren't particularly interested in wiping the slate clean for the allies who behaved abhorrently many times throughout and after the war.

I don't think you're a Nazi sympathiser but I do think you're understanding of this issue is flawed as a result of fallacies on this topic spread on the internet and elsewhere by, among others, Nazi sympathisers. I suggest you read a book on the topic, Richard Overy's The Bombing War is a good recent one.

inforfun · 14-02-2020 11:10am

5 years earlier. Rotterdam May 1940. My dad was 7 and living there when that happened. And then came the hunger winter of 44\45
Dont expect sympathy from me for germans. Never had it, never will have.

CrankyHaus · 14-02-2020 11:18am

inforfun wrote: »

5 years earlier. Rotterdam May 1940. My dad was 7 and living there when that happened. And then came the hunger winter of 44\45
Dont expect sympathy from me for germans. Never had it, never will have.

I'd always have sympathy for individuals facing the horrors of war regardless of the crimes of their side. That sympathy doesn't change the fact that bombing Dresden was a necessary evil though.

14-02-2020 11:32am

CrankyHaus wrote: »

Nazi Germany's uniquely extreme policies of racial persecution are a historical fact, not "Allied Propaganda". There is no equivalence between Nazi Germany and the racism and anti-semitism sadly common elsewhere at the time.

You're jumping over points, and answering them as if the point made was different. I didn't dispute Nazi racial policies, nor did I claim them to be allied propaganda. You're reading what you want to read rather than dealing with what's written.

Until you actually respond to what I wrote, there's little point following up on this. Unless the whole point is to move away from what I originally wrote?

Wehrmacht war crimes are well documented historical fact and the "clean Wehrmacht" myth is well debunked by now outside of Nazi sympathiser circles. Asking for links puts you in company with those who demand "proof" that the holocaust occurred.

Wehrmach war crimes are well documented now. Once again, you're applying the wonderful ability of hindsight, and suggesting that the allies knew everything that you have access to. They didn't. Excesses in warfare were accepted as being relatively normal, but the degree of excess that Wehrmacht and SS troops engaged in wasn't commonly known until much later in the war.

You're very quick to assign labels to posters who disagree with you, just as you're also very quick to post unrelated content in response to other peoples posts.

Here's a quick one anyway: https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-20698098

No dates covering it's operation, nor any real details about what they found.

"During the Battle of Britain in 1940, captured Luftwaffe pilots were held initially at Trent Park. The rooms at Trent Park had been equipped with hidden microphones that allowed the British to listen in to the pilots' conversations. This provided information about the German pilots' views on a number of matters, including the relative strengths and weaknesses of German aircraft.[10]

But we're looking for generals, not luftwaffe or submarine crews...

Later in the war it was used as a special prisoner-of-war camp (the 'Cockfosters Cage'[11]) for captured German generals and staff officers."

Wiki " These Axis forces finally surrendered in May 1943, leaving the Allies with around 260,000 enemy prisoners of war on their hands."

"Britain's own German prisoners from the Desert War were held in camps in the Middle East, with the exception of a few high-ranking officers who were sent to Britain for interrogation"

So, these generals and the information they revealed came about as late as 1943...

As I said, you tend to apply hindsight rather than appreciate what was known at the time of the war itself.

No idea what you're talking about here.

Then, I'll just let it go, because I can't be bothered.

The outcome of the war was very much in doubt after the invasion of Russia, which was expected to fall many times until the tide turned in 1943. Certainly by 1945 Germany could not win, but it would not surrender and continued to fight. How would you prosecute the last months of the war if strategic bombing was off the table? Tell tens, if not hundreds, of thousands of Allied troops that they'll have to take one for the team because Klaz thinks bombing is mean?

Ahh but I didn't say for strategic bombing to be off the table. Once more, you're making leaps... and I'm not terribly interested in following you, because you keep doing it.

I wouldn't mind engaging in a discussion with you about WW2 but you seem incapable of replying to what I've wrote, and instead, feel the need to go off on a separate tangent. You've done this a few times now, and I have no belief that you won't continue doing it. No point engaging in a long discussion with you.

BanditLuke · 14-02-2020 11:39am

Blaze420 wrote: »

What’s wrong with what he said? If they could do the same to ISIS these days would you be hand wringing as well?

What a stupid comparison. All kinds of asshats from around the globe flocked to ISIS to commit war crimes nobody forced them to go to Syria/Iraq etc.. . The vast majority of German people had no choice but to join the German army they couldn't just jump on a plane and head to Bermuda and soak up some sun until it was over.

Snickers Man · 14-02-2020 12:22pm

Blaze420 wrote: »

What’s wrong with what he said? If they could do the same to ISIS these days would you be hand wringing as well?

This is just the argument that Isis/Taliban/Hezbollah (select Middle Eastern/Islamic bogey man organisation of choice) advances for their indiscriminate attacks against Western Civilians. "They're all to blame; they tolerate,nay encourage, their governments to make war on our civilians. THEY MUST PAY!"

Aithníon cíaróg......

CrankyHaus · 14-02-2020 12:22pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Ahh but I didn't say for strategic bombing to be off the table. Once more, you're making leaps... and I'm not terribly interested in following you, because you keep doing it.

I wouldn't mind engaging in a discussion with you about WW2 but you seem incapable of replying to what I've wrote, and instead, feel the need to go off on a separate tangent. You've done this a few times now, and I have no belief that you won't continue doing it. No point engaging in a long discussion with you.

Just tell me what you are saying then, as clearly as possible.

Snickers Man · 14-02-2020 12:24pm

Blaze420 wrote: »

Nope but give me a button and I’d press it no problems, couldn’t care less

I think you'll find there's a knob on your head.....

archer22 · 14-02-2020 1:56pm

Germany's racial policies were exaggerated to a large degree by the propagandists on the Allied side. Apart from the anti Jewish side of it, the rest existed only on paper if at all.If you search it online you will find pictures of coloured people in German uniform.

People of all races and colours served in the German armed forces and were treated the same as their German comrades (and this was at a time when there was segregation based on race in the American army).

And this is a quote from Hitler on the Chinese "I do not regard them as inferior to us,indeed I readily admit that their history is far greater than ours".

I don't think you would ever hear a comment like that coming from Churchill.

Skylinehead · 14-02-2020 1:58pm

archer22 wrote: »

Germany's racial policies were exaggerated to a large degree by the propagandists on the Allied side. Apart from the anti Jewish side of it, the rest existed only on paper if at all.

You think Hitler's anti-Slav rhetoric, policies, and massacres were on paper?

Jaysis.

archer22 · 14-02-2020 2:01pm

Skylinehead wrote: »

You think Hitler's anti-Slav rhetoric, policies, and massacres were on paper?

Jaysis.

Are you denying that millions of Slavs served in the German army?

Skylinehead · 14-02-2020 3:15pm

archer22 wrote: »

Are you denying that millions of Slavs served in the German army?

What? Answer the question.

archer22 · 14-02-2020 3:18pm

Skylinehead wrote: »

What? Answer the question.

Fcuking answer it yourself :rolleyes:

Zebra3 · 14-02-2020 3:26pm

CrankyHaus wrote: »

RThe same applies to Dresden. It was a necessary evil forced on the world by the genocidal aggression of Nazi Germany.

"The world"?

Nope, Britain and the US. Two nations up to their eyeballs in genocide, ethnic cleansing, and apartheid.

Quackster · 14-02-2020 3:32pm

JayZeus wrote: »

Great pictures and I genuinely take some satisfaction from knowing that many German civilians suffered terrible deaths during those bombings. They had plenty of blood on their hands as a people by then and very few were innocent or had no role to play in their war effort, or the suffering of those sent to their deaths in the camps.

Spectacular stuff.

Wow. That is one sick, twisted, perverse piece of horse manure.

B.A._Baracus · 14-02-2020 3:36pm

Looking at the pictures in the first post it's mental that some of the buildings walls are still up. Like, the the interiors got leveled but not completely destroyed. Freaky. Hollow shells left behind.

Tacitus Kilgore · 14-02-2020 3:45pm

B.A._Baracus wrote: »

Looking at the pictures in the first post it's mental that some of the buildings walls are still up. Like, the the interiors got leveled but not completely destroyed. Freaky. Hollow shells left behind.

It was the ferocity of the firestorm afaik, anything that could burn was completely incinerated.

It's horrifying what we humans can do to each other, and the planet.

CrankyHaus · 14-02-2020 3:56pm

Zebra3 wrote: »

"The world"?

Nope, Britain and the US. Two nations up to their eyeballs in genocide, ethnic cleansing, and apartheid.

What alternative to strategic bombing do you propose they should have done?

The Soviets didn't bother with strategic bombing but the advance of their forces across Europe was hardly any less horrifying in its effects on the civilian population.

Zebra3 · 14-02-2020 4:20pm

CrankyHaus wrote: »

What alternative to strategic bombing do you propose they should have done?

The Soviets didn't bother with strategic bombing but the advance of their forces across Europe was hardly any less horrifying in its effects on the civilian population.

You basically claimed “the world” had to bomb Dresden, I just pointed out that “the world” didn’t.

Two countries that committed most of the same crimes as Germany did.

And those two countries would commit many of the same crimes again.

sameoldname · 14-02-2020 4:23pm

The Dresden bombings have always been to me a really interesting moral discussion.

I mean, on an individual level it's very hard to countenance what amounts to the indiscriminate destruction of a city and it's population in what was basically an overwhelming display of force aimed squarely at sending a message to the German people.

On the other hand, on a strategic level this was "total war". The entire economies of many countries were completely dedicated to supporting the war effort, Germany and the UK being 2 of them. Under this doctrine there wasn't much discrimination between civilian and military. So if strategists thought that breaking the will of the German people was going to shorten the war and bring victory sooner then it was a logical thing to do. And if those same planners had any concerns over the innocents in Dresden I'm sure they eased their conscience by telling themselves that if the Germans had the same capability, they'd bomb an allied city to dust without any such regard. And who am I to second guess them when all I've ever known in my lifetime is peace?

CrankyHaus · 14-02-2020 4:28pm

Zebra3 wrote: »

You basically claimed “the world” had to bomb Dresden, I just pointed out that “the world” didn’t.

Two countries that committed most of the same crimes as Germany did.

And those two countries would commit many of the same crimes again.

But since the thread is about Dresden, and my comment you were responding to was about Dresden, surely you can give your own opinion about Dresden without hiding behind dubious moral equivalences between the USA, UK and Nazi Germany?

Zebra3 · 14-02-2020 4:30pm

CrankyHaus wrote: »

But since the thread is about Dresden, and my comment you were responding to was about Dresden, surely you can give your own opinion about Dresden without hiding behind dubious moral equivalences between the USA, UK and Nazi Germany?

“Dubious”?

You really know how to insult the victims of genocide, and when it come to British genocide, over a million Irish people.

Tony EH · 14-02-2020 4:37pm

JayZeus wrote: »

Great pictures and I genuinely take some satisfaction from knowing that many German civilians suffered terrible deaths during those bombings. They had plenty of blood on their hands as a people by then and very few were innocent or had no role to play in their war effort, or the suffering of those sent to their deaths in the camps.

Spectacular stuff.

This has to be a contender to take the prize for the "dumbest comment ever" award on Boards.

Absolute cretinism of the highest order indeed.

Tony EH · 14-02-2020 4:38pm

Blaze420 wrote: »

What’s wrong with what he said? If they could do the same to ISIS these days would you be hand wringing as well?

It's moronic.

archer22 · 14-02-2020 4:42pm

sameoldname wrote: »

The Dresden bombings have always been to me a really interesting moral discussion.

I mean, on an individual level it's very hard to countenance what amounts to the indiscriminate destruction of a city and it's population in what was basically an overwhelming display of force aimed squarely at sending a message to the German people.

On the other hand, on a strategic level this was "total war". The entire economies of many countries were completely dedicated to supporting the war effort, Germany and the UK being 2 of them. Under this doctrine there wasn't much discrimination between civilian and military. So if strategists thought that breaking the will of the German people was going to shorten the war and bring victory sooner then it was a logical thing to do. And if those same planners had any concerns over the innocents in Dresden I'm sure they eased their conscience by telling themselves that if the Germans had the same capability, they'd bomb an allied city to dust without any such regard. And who am I to second guess them when all I've ever known in my lifetime is peace?

The Germans never built a strategic bomber force and never showed any desire to possess such.In fact no nation in the conflict apart from the UK and America had any interest in such a murderous city destroying civilian slaughtering weapon.

Tony EH · 14-02-2020 4:48pm

inforfun wrote: »

5 years earlier. Rotterdam May 1940. My dad was 7 and living there when that happened. And then came the hunger winter of 44\45
Dont expect sympathy from me for germans. Never had it, never will have.

Allied bombing did more damage to Rotterdam than the Germans.

Bodhidharma · 14-02-2020 4:52pm

I read an interview with Kurt Vonnegut recently, he was in Dresden at the time of the bombings as a POW, nightmarish quality to his writing about it.

“Every day we walked into the city and dug into basements and shelters to get the corpses out, as a sanitary measure. When we went into them, a typical shelter, an ordinary basement usually, looked like a streetcar full of people who’d simultaneously had heart failure. Just people sitting there in their chairs, all dead. A fire storm is an amazing thing. It doesn’t occur in nature. It’s fed by the tornadoes that occur in the midst of it and there isn’t a damned thing to breathe. We brought the dead out. They were loaded on wagons and taken to parks, large open areas in the city which weren’t filled with rubble. The Germans got funeral pyres going, burning the bodies to keep them from stinking and from spreading disease. 130,000 corpses were hidden underground. It was a terribly elaborate Easter egg hunt. We went to work through cordons of German soldiers. Civilians didn’t get to see what we were up to. After a few days the city began to smell, and a new technique was invented. Necessity is the mother of invention. We would bust into the shelter, gather up valuables from people’s laps without attempting identification, and turn the valuables over to guards. Then soldiers would come with a flame thrower and stand in the door and cremate the people inside. Get the gold and jewelry out and then burn everybody inside.”

Tony EH · 14-02-2020 5:05pm

sameoldname wrote: »

The Dresden bombings have always been to me a really interesting moral discussion.

I mean, on an individual level it's very hard to countenance what amounts to the indiscriminate destruction of a city and it's population in what was basically an overwhelming display of force aimed squarely at sending a message to the German people.

Dresden wasn't just filled with its own population. There were 100,000's of refugees from eastern Europe also packed into its streets, many of whom remain unaccounted for in the standard death tolls that get floated about.

Also, as far a messages are concerned, I don't know what message the allies were trying to send to the German people at that stage of the war, when in less than 12 weeks the war would be over.

I think their message might have been more aimed at the Russians, tbh, who were coming to the end of their usefulness as allies.

sameoldname wrote: »

On the other hand, on a strategic level this was "total war". The entire economies of many countries were completely dedicated to supporting the war effort, Germany and the UK being 2 of them. Under this doctrine there wasn't much discrimination between civilian and military. So if strategists thought that breaking the will of the German people was going to shorten the war and bring victory sooner then it was a logical thing to do. And if those same planners had any concerns over the innocents in Dresden I'm sure they eased their conscience by telling themselves that if the Germans had the same capability, they'd bomb an allied city to dust without any such regard. And who am I to second guess them when all I've ever known in my lifetime is peace?

Strategic bombing played little part really in bringing the war to an end. German production actually went up in 1944, after a whole year of round the clock bombing.

Merely tipping bombs on the centre of cities (the allies didn't even bother trying to target the Zeiss factory in Dresden) wasn't going to anything to end the war. It just terrorised civilians. Civilians who had no say in the direction of the war at any point during it.

75 years ago today....

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