M6 - Galway City Ring Road [planning decision pending]

KrisW1001 · 13-02-2021 3:30pm

Sam Russell wrote: »

The bypass is already built. It is called the M17/M18 and allows traffic going from Limerick to bypass Galway on its way north to North of Tuam.

What Galway needs is better public transport and more bridges over the Corrib. Add appropriate P&R and decent cycling infrastructure and it is nearly sorted.

The ring road will not be built for a decade. Buses could be in use by next year, and P&R by the year after.

I agree with pretty much all of this, except for one small bit: M17/18 doesn't help anyone who's on the eastern side of Galway City but needs to get to the western part of Co Galway, or vice versa. A proper East/West bypass (i.e., a road with a small number of links, all with other national routes only, designed to facilitate longer-distance traffic) would be of benefit here, and it wouldn't need to be a very high capacity road in order to meet demand: something like N33 would be enough. However, finding somewhere to route it would be a nightmare.

Sam Russell · 13-02-2021 4:04pm

KrisW1001 wrote: »

I agree with pretty much all of this, except for one small bit: M17/18 doesn't help anyone who's on the eastern side of Galway City but needs to get to the western part of Co Galway, or vice versa. A proper East/West bypass (i.e., a road with a small number of links, all with other national routes only, designed to facilitate longer-distance traffic) would be of benefit here, and it wouldn't need to be a very high capacity road in order to meet demand: something like N33 would be enough. However, finding somewhere to route it would be a nightmare.

The M17/M18 was built too far east - bit late now.

The planning in and around Galway has been a problem with one-off housing for a very long time - bit late now.

However, more public transport is a solution that is not too late. The same for cycling infrastructure.

13-02-2021 4:28pm

KrisW1001 wrote: »

A proper East/West bypass (i.e., a road with a small number of links, all with other national routes only, designed to facilitate longer-distance traffic) would be of benefit here, and it wouldn't need to be a very high capacity road in order to meet demand: something like N33 would be enough. However, finding somewhere to route it would be a nightmare.

Studies have shown that only 3% of the traffic crossing the river are external to external i.e. outside Galway city to outside Galway city so approx 2,400 cars a day at 80k river crossings. Open to being corrected on the 80k as I pulled it from memory

If we include the 5% coming from outside the city on the west and crossing the river to a location inside the city on the east side, the % goes to 8%. Including the inverse brings it to 15% or just over 13.5k

What you are proposing is a half billion road to re-route 13.5k cars, hardly seems worth it, which is why the current project is not setup as a bypass, but rather as a ring road with as many exits as they could get away with.

This new road is designed to facilitate further outwards development of low density housing only. It is not designed to be a long term fix for Galway's traffic problems because the only fix for that is a modal shift. If they stay focused on car centric solutions for Galway then all of Galways problems will be car centric too.

One has to remember that Galway has possibly the highest amount of pedestrian commuters in the whole country at approx 23%. Thats frikkin huge. But there is only 5% commuting by bike. What does that tell you?

First, weather isn't as big an issue as people make it out to be, otherwise you wouldn't have 23% walking to work/education.

Second, If weather is not an issue, and Galway is not a particularly hilly city, and end to end distance is less than 45 mins on a bike, then you can only conclude that its not safe to cycle.

Fix that and you start to free up road space by attracting a large portion of that 60% of city drivers. Couple that with a comprehensive Park & Stride system to accommodate external to internal travelers and what you are left with is more than enough space to provide consistent journey times for the remainder for a very, very long time.

Thats not to mention the increases you gain by having a reliable bus network which is separated from car traffic and prioritised at junctions.

Sam Russell · 13-02-2021 4:45pm

From those figures, public transport at 8% is extremely low. It almost aske the question - Do they have pubic transport at all?

13-02-2021 5:13pm

Sam Russell wrote: »

From those figures, public transport at 8% is extremely low. It almost aske the question - Do they have pubic transport at all?

This is the point I was making, there is a lot of low hanging fruit still to be plucked in terms of addressing Galways traffic issues. The ring road looks at a car solution only for a car problem.

Buses in Galway suffer from being forced to mix with cars. There are 3 major infrastructure projects required to address this:
- Seamus Quirke rd redesign - Done
- Cross city link - pending construction of new pedestrian and cycling bridge at Salmon weir
- Dublin rd dual bus lanes - consultation underway

Once these are done, 2023 & 2024 I think, all routes will use all or some portions of the above which will allow free movement.

Some of the new junction redesigns are already set up for bus priority signaling too, so my guess is they are waiting for the 2 above to be done then get those running.

The 409 route in Galway was the first real high frequency, fast route in Galway that ended up being one of BE's most profitable routes in the whole country, so high was its ridership. It also showed all parties concerned that with the right measures and investment you can have PT that works and is a core part of how people get around the city, rather than an afterthought or last resort

Pete_Cavan · 13-02-2021 7:21pm

I certainly think that the current proposed is over-engineered, unnecessarily complex and ultimately unjustifiably expensive. I do however think that we should be planning a new section of road to come off the existing N6 a few hundred metres west of the Tuam Road and following the proposed bypass but only as far as the proposed connection to N59, not further west. There isn't enough space for a proper junction at the N6/N83 junction so it could be built further west where space is available. A new section of road could link from that new junction back to Tuam Road further north which could allow for reduced movements at the existing junction (i.e. left only).

The Coolagh roundabout could be eliminated and an upgraded junction put in its place, possibly making the N6 freeflow. A new a link from Coolagh to Parkmore Road could also be provided meaning the R339 junction could be reduced to left only movements.

I think that addresses the National road deficiencies without pandering to commuter traffic. Obviously greater provision for buses would need to be made to the existing, particularly the QCB which would then have a bus lane in either direction. Cyclists should be catered for on the Regional roads (R336 and R339 in particular), avoiding heavy traffic on the existing N6 east of the Headford Road junction.

13-02-2021 7:56pm

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

Obviously greater provision for buses would need to be made to the existing, particularly the QCB which would then have a bus lane in either direction.

Nobody lives on the QCB so BE have dismissed it as a route years ago. Its why there are no bus stops or routes servicing the N6 in general

Sam Russell · 13-02-2021 8:00pm

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

I certainly think that the current proposed is over-engineered, unnecessarily complex and ultimately unjustifiably expensive. I do however think that we should be planning a new section of road to come off the existing N6 a few hundred metres west of the Tuam Road and following the proposed bypass but only as far as the proposed connection to N59, not further west. There isn't enough space for a proper junction at the N6/N83 junction so it could be built further west where space is available. A new section of road could link from that new junction back to Tuam Road further north which could allow for reduced movements at the existing junction (i.e. left only).

The Coolagh roundabout could be eliminated and an upgraded junction put in its place, possibly making the N6 freeflow. A new a link from Coolagh to Parkmore Road could also be provided meaning the R339 junction could be reduced to left only movements.

I think that addresses the National road deficiencies without pandering to commuter traffic. Obviously greater provision for buses would need to be made to the existing, particularly the QCB which would then have a bus lane in either direction. Cyclists should be catered for on the Regional roads (R336 and R339 in particular), avoiding heavy traffic on the existing N6 east of the Headford Road junction.

I suggested this type of solution some time ago.

N6 should be freeflow from the M6 to Terryland, and a new bridge over the Corrib. It would only be a few junctions, and would ease traffic.

However, P&R locations are still needed. Plus of course bus lanes, cycle lanes, and buses.

13-02-2021 8:40pm

Sam Russell wrote: »

N6 should be freeflow from the M6 to Terryland, and a new bridge over the Corrib.

:eek:

Go way willya. Talk about an anti PT/pedestrian/cycling solution.

You are talking about 5 freeflow junctions on a 5km stretch, what a bizarre solution to a problem that would not be solved by this solution

Thankfully will never happen

Jesus, I thought GCC were bad.

Pete_Cavan · 13-02-2021 8:46pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Nobody lives on the QCB so BE have dismissed it as a route years ago. Its why there are no bus stops or routes servicing the N6 in general

Of course nobody lives on a bridge, there is more likely to be a troll living under one scaring goats than someone living on it. The same is true of many bridges around the country, and the world for that matter, but it doesn't stop them being used for public transport linking areas on either side of the bridge. Buses aren't like vampires, they can, and often do, cross over water.

Much of Galway's problem is a lack of viable public transport between residential areas on the west of the city and employment areas on the east. Bus lanes on the QCB as well as the existing N6, while not offering an attractive car commuting alternative as the current bypass proposal does, would go a decent way to addressing the problems (obviously there is more to it than that but that wouldbea good start).

Pete_Cavan · 13-02-2021 8:49pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

:eek:

Go way willya. Talk about an anti PT/pedestrian/cycling solution.

You are talking about 5 freeflow junctions on a 5km stretch, what a bizarre solution to a problem that would not be solved by this solution

Thankfully will never happen

Jesus, I thought GCC were bad.

Free flow along there isn't realistic but removing the Coolagh roundabout and upgrading that junction while downgrading the R339 junction, and then downgrading the Tuam Road junction and providing a better junction west of there could be done.

13-02-2021 9:03pm

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

Free flow along there isn't realistic but removing the Coolagh roundabout and upgrading that junction while downgrading the R339 junction, and then downgrading the Tuam Road junction and providing a better junction west of there could be done.

To what end?

There would be no increase in capacity in routes connected to it so would not increase capacity in the network, it wouldn't decrease travel times as there would be no increase in capacity or improve connectivity.

It would, however, impact negatively on pedestrians & cyclists, severely impact the proposed bus priority measures on the Tuam Rd.

Also, the R339 junction. GCC have literally spent 15 years constantly tinkering with it to try maximise the throughput as its one of the busiest junctions in the whole city so I'm not sure how downgrading it would benefit anyone, especially the 15,000 people working in Parkmore

13-02-2021 9:12pm

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

Of course nobody lives on a bridge, there is more likely to be a troll living under one scaring goats than someone living on it. The same is true of many bridges around the country, and the world for that matter, but it doesn't stop them being used for public transport linking areas on either side of the bridge. Buses aren't like vampires, they can, and often do, cross over water.

Much of Galway's problem is a lack of viable public transport between residential areas on the west of the city and employment areas on the east. Bus lanes on the QCB as well as the existing N6, while not offering an attractive car commuting alternative as the current bypass proposal does, would go a decent way to addressing the problems (obviously there is more to it than that but that wouldbea good start).

To route buses over the QCB would mean avoiding the city center. Why would you run a bus route that avoids the place where 30% of the population works? Here's the current network of routes

The proposed bus routes as part of the GTS are laid out below. You'll note the QCB is not used, neither is the rest of the N6 as nobody lives or works there.

Chris_5339762 · 13-02-2021 9:19pm

The red and blue routes are so hopelessly windy that I'd say they'll still have trouble getting people to use them. Between the blues terminus in Knocknacarra and where it makes a right angle at Salthill... well you could probably walk that bit faster than the bus would take you.

Pete_Cavan · 13-02-2021 9:56pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

To what end?

There would be no increase in capacity in routes connected to it so would not increase capacity in the network, it wouldn't decrease travel times as there would be no increase in capacity or improve connectivity.

It would, however, impact negatively on pedestrians & cyclists, severely impact the proposed bus priority measures on the Tuam Rd.

Also, the R339 junction. GCC have literally spent 15 years constantly tinkering with it to try maximise the throughput as its one of the busiest junctions in the whole city so I'm not sure how downgrading it would benefit anyone, especially the 15,000 people working in Parkmore

A new bridge over the Corrib further north would increase capacity and allow for more public transport capacity.

What I described would see a replacement for about 50% of the existing N6 between Coolagh and where it meets the N59 which would allow for improved pedestrian and cycling facilities. I also said that other routes need upgrading to facilitate pedestrians and cyclists. Trying to encourage cyclists on the existing N6 is not going to see much modal shift.

The R339 junction would be downgraded because traffic coming from the N6 east of the city would be using a new direct link from Coolagh or immediately east thereof. Tinkering with that junction is not enough.

Pete_Cavan · 13-02-2021 10:09pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

To route buses over the QCB would mean avoiding the city center. Why would you run a bus route that avoids the place where 30% of the population works? Here's the current network of routes

The proposed bus routes as part of the GTS are laid out below. You'll note the QCB is not used, neither is the rest of the N6 as nobody lives or works there.

Galway absolutely needs bus routes which avoid the city centre, it should be one of the priorities for the city. One of the biggest problems with Dublins bus service for decades has been that all routes lead to the city centre, thankfully that is finally about to change. Galway more than most places needs good quality orbital bus routes due to the (shockingly bad) way it has been allowed to develop.

Nobody living on the N6 is a beyond stupid argument, nobody, or very few people lives on O'Connell Street, OCB or Westmoreland Street but a good proportion of Dublins bus routes go there. The N6 is the most direct way of connecting residential areas in the west of Galway to employment areas in the east. It is those traffic flows which are the primary reason a €600m bypass of Galway is being pursued and it is that which must be addressed. Providing viable public transport alternatives on that route will go a long way to addressing Galways traffic problems.

13-02-2021 10:45pm

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

A new bridge over the Corrib further north would increase capacity and allow for more public transport capacity.

This approach, build the ring road to free up space for PT, doesn't hold water.

Even if and its a big if, the rr gets approved, it going to be challenged in court and possibly end up in Europe again. Best case, it breaks ground some time after 2030,opening in 2033. What's Galway to do in the meantime with a road network already at capacity?

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

Galway absolutely needs bus routes which avoid the city centre, it should be one of the priorities for the city. One of the biggest problems with Dublins bus service for decades has been that all routes lead to the city centre, thankfully that is finally about to change. Galway more than most places needs good quality orbital bus routes due to the (shockingly bad) way it has been allowed to develop.

You are comparing a city of 80,000 to a city of 1+ million, really?

Nobody living on the N6 is a beyond stupid argument, nobody, or very few people lives on O'Connell Street, OCB or Westmoreland Street but a good proportion of Dublins bus routes go there. The N6 is the most direct way of connecting residential areas in the west of Galway to employment areas in the east. It is those traffic flows which are the primary reason a €600m bypass of Galway is being pursued and it is that which must be addressed. Providing viable public transport alternatives on that route will go a long way to addressing Galways traffic problems.

Thankfully the detailed analysis conducted as part of the GTS put this argument to rest. I recommend that you have a read. All the data is there to show you why this approach is not being taken and was disregarded as it would be utterly pointless.

Pete_Cavan · 14-02-2021 1:42pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

This approach, build the ring road to free up space for PT, doesn't hold water.

Even if and its a big if, the rr gets approved, it going to be challenged in court and possibly end up in Europe again. Best case, it breaks ground some time after 2030,opening in 2033. What's Galway to do in the meantime with a road network already at capacity?

I am not advocating for the ring road project and have clearly stated several times that it is a waste of money. It should be scrapped and a reduced scope project focusing on a new bridge primarily for N6 > N59 traffic (and vice versa) pursued instead.

You are comparing a city of 80,000 to a city of 1+ million, really?

It is true of any bus service that routing all routes through the city centre is going to make it less attractive for journeys for portion of journeys. Given the layout of of the city and the way it has been allowed to develop, that portion is quite large for Galway.

Thankfully the detailed analysis conducted as part of the GTS put this argument to rest. I recommend that you have a read. All the data is there to show you why this approach is not being taken and was disregarded as it would be utterly pointless.

So you don't think that orbital bus routes should form part of the Galway bus network and that sufficient modal shift can be achieved there with only city centre focused routes? I don't think that is the case now nevermind with future growth. If a new bridge was provided, it is only logical to reallocate space on it for public transport which facilitates orbital routes on a scale which is not currently allowed (because taking space from cars is fought tooth and nail).

14-02-2021 2:36pm

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

I am not advocating for the ring road project and have clearly stated several times that it is a waste of money.

Great to hear

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

It is true of any bus service that routing all routes through the city centre is going to make it less attractive for journeys for portion of journeys.

The city center employs 30% of the population and is home to 30% of the population also. Not all live & work there. It makes sense with the layout of Galway to bring all routes through the center especially when you consider the cross city link project which will prioritise and allow a free flow of all routes from SQR to Doughiska right through the city center.

Frequency and reliability of journey times are the most important factors. The route doesnt really make a difference to anyone if they know a bus will be along at its assigned time and will take almost exactly X amount of time to get from A to B. The roads it uses have little to no bearing so long as the bus can keep moving

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

So you don't think that orbital bus routes should form part of the Galway bus network and that sufficient modal shift can be achieved there with only city centre focused routes? I don't think that is the case now nevermind with future growth.

Yup, I do. Bus priority measures and greater frequency are needed to shift people to buses.

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

If a new bridge was provided, it is only logical to reallocate space on it for public transport which facilitates orbital routes on a scale which is not currently allowed (because taking space from cars is fought tooth and nail).

I don't understand the obsession with orbital routes. I'm guessing you mean from the Knocknacarra area over to Parkmore? Time and again studies have shown an orbital routes specifically catering for this would be under-subscribed and not feasible.

Simply put, a bus route that does not pass through where people live or work for a large portion of its journey is not feasible.

I believe you are pushing orbital routes to avoid the city center congestion, yes? If so, that congestion will not be an issue for buses by 2024 as they will have a free run on, more or less, car-free routes from SQR to Doughiska.

The map below shows the following
- Purple - Existing bus lanes on SQR (dual) and Dublin road (single)
- Red - Dublin Rd expansion to dual lanes for its length (planning submissions scheduled for Q1 2022)
- Blue - Cross city link - going to ABP in 2022 I think
- Pink - WDR multi-modal corridor - very early days yet with this one

All but the pink route are on track to be implemented by 2024/2025 at the latest.

Once these are done, I think any notion of an orbital route will be well and truly dead in the water as this infrastructure will essentially be the spine of the entire bus route network, with all routes using some portions of this spine to bypass congestion.

Sam Russell · 14-02-2021 2:43pm

I think you could add a route along the N6 from Newcastle to Monivea. That would be an express route that would allow P&R on the Tuam Road to feed into the employment centres on the east of the city. There is plenty of room for bus lanes if the junctions can be sorted to free flow. It would link the Hospital, the University and Parkmore.

KrisW1001 · 15-02-2021 11:31am

Deleted User wrote: »

What you are proposing is a half billion road to re-route 13.5k cars, hardly seems worth it, which is why the current project is not setup as a bypass, but rather as a ring road with as many exits as they could get away with.

To be clear - I think the current ring-road project is the wrong answer. But I have to point out that your figures are only for private car travel; if you include commercial and goods traffic, then it's a lot more than 13.5k. I cited N33 as an example of what I was thinking of, and that's only a single carriageway, and is used primarily by long-distance traffic.

But, as I also said, the geography of Galway means that any such road would end up being a Galway Ring Road by default. Except for tolling private cars I can't see how you'd facilitate long-distance commercial traffic with such a road without also acting as a magnet for private-car commuters, so it's a non-starter, really.

I agree with all your other points.

This new road is designed to facilitate further outwards development of low density housing only. It is not designed to be a long term fix for Galway's traffic problems because the only fix for that is a modal shift. If they stay focused on car centric solutions for Galway then all of Galways problems will be car centric too.

Yes. This is true for every city in the country. Galway is uniquely challenged by its geography and (frankly) a history of disgracefully lax planning, but its geography gives it other advantages that can be exploited too.

One has to remember that Galway has possibly the highest amount of pedestrian commuters in the whole country at approx 23%. Thats frikkin huge. But there is only 5% commuting by bike. What does that tell you?

To offer an alternative to your reasoning. The high number of pedestrian journeys suggests to me that the city has a a couple of very densely-packed areas surrounded by super-low-density areas. So, depending on where you live, everything is either already in easy walking distance, or too far away for a bike to be significantly better/quicker/safer than car.

Second, If weather is not an issue, and Galway is not a particularly hilly city, and end to end distance is less than 45 mins on a bike, then you can only conclude that its not safe to cycle.

I agree. Part of the reason is the reliance on express routes and one-way roads (a classic sign of car-first planning), which raise the speed of motor traffic. Cork has been slowly undoing its one-way street plan as the city planners have come to realise that increasing the flow of motor traffic actually makes the streets more intimidating to non-motorised users.

The other deterrent is a lack of places to leave a bicycle once you get into the city. I'm thinking of the very narrow streets of the city centre here. I'm sure there's plenty of space that can be found, of course, if there's a will to find it.

Fix that and you start to free up road space by attracting a large portion of that 60% of city drivers. Couple that with a comprehensive Park & Stride system to accommodate external to internal travelers and what you are left with is more than enough space to provide consistent journey times for the remainder for a very, very long time.

Thats not to mention the increases you gain by having a reliable bus network which is separated from car traffic and prioritised at junctions.

... and I completely agree with this too. Park-and-ride is an essential part of the solution, because the traffic problems are caused by the city being surrounded by neighbourhoods that are too sparsely populated to support a direct bus service.

CowboyTed · 15-02-2021 5:36pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Firstly, its not a bypass, its a ring road, designed to distribute traffic around the city.

Second, the scenario you outlined happens everyday as is (covid notwithstanding). Its just a mess because everyone drives everywhere even when there is no need for it.

Third, the current design is destined to become blocked with traffic again within 30-40 years of completion, what then? Build another one?

Actually yes....

Look at the city 40 years ago compared to now...

i will say that in 40 years that we will be ending the use of traffic lights aand automated electric cars could be the main transport....

We are kind of moving that way with the e-Bikes which I think should be powered up to at least US standards(EU thing is only a directive)... This would make close to electric scooters... Have age limits and properly displayed bike certs(power class)... Bike routes should be geared towards transport over leisure(e.g. Bike lane on Dr. Mannix Rd and not on Prom)... This would end up being a huge Government sponsored electric moped schme, nothing too much wrong with that... Except when the weather gets bad...

KrisW1001 · 15-02-2021 9:26pm

We're getting off topic, but autonomous vehicles are not the saviour for urban transport; in fact, they constitute one of the biggest threats to road transport infrastructure in urban areas.

Right now, we have a congestion problem that's mainly caused by of thousands of single occupancy vehicles using around 20 square metres of road-space to transport just one person. This is the cycling lobby's entirely correct criticism of favouring car transport: it is shockingly wasteful of road-space. Now, think ahead a little to a world where your car drops you to work, then drives back to your house autonomously to save on parking fees. Brilliant? No. Now, instead of a single-occupant car, we have a no-occupant car wasting road space for no purpose whatsoever. Autonomous driving has the potential to double traffic demand with no increase in economic activity to match. It's a horrifying prospect.

Cookiemunster · 15-02-2021 9:35pm

KrisW1001 wrote: »

We're getting off topic, but autonomous vehicles are not the saviour for urban transport; in fact, they constitute one of the biggest threats to road transport infrastructure in urban areas.

Right now, we have a congestion problem that's mainly caused by of thousands of single occupancy vehicles using around 20 square metres of road-space to transport just one person. This is the cycling lobby's entirely correct criticism of favouring car transport: it is shockingly wasteful of road-space. Now, think ahead a little to a world where your car drops you to work, then drives back to your house autonomously to save on parking fees. Brilliant? No. Now, instead of a single-occupant car, we have a no-occupant car wasting road space for no purpose whatsoever. Autonomous driving has the potential to double traffic demand with no increase in economic activity to match. It's a horrifying prospect.

That's the first time i've seen that argument. Normally the argument is that nobody will own a car and you'll just rent an autonomous car like you now get a taxi.

Personally I think if its like your version then they'll drop you to the door at work or the shop and park themselves in the nearest car park rather than returning to your home. That would be a huge waste of energy.

15-02-2021 9:55pm

Cookiemunster wrote: »

That's the first time i've seen that argument. Normally the argument is that nobody will own a car and you'll just rent an autonomous car like you now get a taxi.

Personally I think if its like your version then they'll drop you to the door at work or the shop and park themselves in the nearest car park rather than returning to your home. That would be a huge waste of energy.

Sounds like half an idea, the second part would be for the car to be hired by commuters for the last mile from the station to place of work and back again in the evening. Would be a great earner for thone who have to commute in and outside of the peak hours.

Sam Russell · 15-02-2021 10:10pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Sounds like half an idea, the second part would be for the car to be hired by commuters for the last mile from the station to place of work and back again in the evening. Would be a great earner for thone who have to commute in and outside of the peak hours.

I think that would be the electric scooter - like the Dublin bikes or the beeper bikes. Pick one up at the station or bus stop and drop it off at your destination.

I think autonomous vehicles will not be that common, and as already suggested will be either shuttle buses, or taxis.

Mind you, a hundred years ago, who would have thought that the private car would be as universal as it is. Even twenty years ago, few would have seen the growth of mobile phone ownership (and smart phone ownership, connectivity, and computer power) would be so universal?

I think futurologists know nothing.

KrisW1001 · 15-02-2021 10:12pm

cookiemunster wrote:

Personally I think if its like your version then they'll drop you to the door at work or the shop and park themselves in the nearest car park rather than returning to your home. That would be a huge waste of energy.

Never underestimate the amount of hidden cost people will incur in order to avoid a direct charge. Also, with parking rates at €3/hr, driving 25 km home and 25km back is still cheaper than parking 8 hours.

Already in Manhattan, it's common practice for executive chauffeur services to circle city blocks while their clients attend meetings, so that the car will be ready as soon as the oh so important businessmen come out of their office block. Imagine what happens once someone can do that without having to pay a driver...

Deleted User wrote: »

Sounds like half an idea, the second part would be for the car to be hired by commuters for the last mile from the station to place of work and back again in the evening. Would be a great earner for thone who have to commute in and outside of the peak hours.

Okay, a quick show of hands: who's happy to let total strangers into their car..? Okay, now who's happy to let total strangers into their car while you're not in it too?

I thought not.

Sam Russell · 15-02-2021 10:20pm

KrisW1001 wrote: »

Okay, a quick show of hands: who's happy to let total strangers into their car..? Okay, now who's happy to let total strangers into their car while you're not in it too?

I thought not.

Replace car with bus or taxi you might have your answer.

GoCar work in Dublin and around the country where the car is hired by the hour - including fuel, tax, and insurance. They appear doing good business.

15-02-2021 10:27pm

KrisW1001 wrote: »

Okay, a quick show of hands: who's happy to let total strangers into their car..? Okay, now who's happy to let total strangers into their car while you're not in it too?

I thought not.

If you lease the car, like most people seem to do these days, would you prefer to have a lower payment if the car can be used like a gocar during to day (assuming some self driving capability) and it will be back outside the office each evening ready for you to take home.

KrisW1001 · 15-02-2021 11:47pm

If you want to see how realistic these ideas are, consider company car fleets. Most companies used to get their tax-breaks for these cars by virtue of the cars being available for the use of employees during work hours.

Now, if you've ever worked for a company that ran such a fleet, and you'd ever tried to use one of those company cars for a business trip, you'd learn a quick lesson about how attached people really are to their private property - even when it's not actually their property.

Taxis, buses, short-term car rentals: yes, these could work, but because they're a common good, bought specifically for the purpose of being hired out. Very, very few people think of their personal property as an asset that should be sweated like this: The research I've seen is that people pay for a car so that they can have exclusive use of the resource. (I had some contact with a US-based company that allowed people to place their cars into short-term rental pools; take-up of this option was very, very poor, and the majority of the rental pools were made up of cars bought specifically for the purpose of being rented full-time)

M6 - Galway City Ring Road [planning decision pending]

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