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Deferred State Exams 2020 [SEE MOD NOTE POST #1]

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  • Options
    #1562
    Shn99
    Registered Users Posts: 1,353 ✭✭✭Shn99


    km79 wrote: »
    Wait until the campaign for next years Leaving Cert cohort begins

    It has already started on social media, 5th years looking for easier papers ect


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    #1563
    Treppen
    Registered Users Posts: 4,591 ✭✭✭Treppen


    Ya no way could you be spacing students out in multiple rooms...

    In other unrelated news... Pubs to open end of June.

    No more than 4 people per 10sq meters.

    Anyone screaming for detailed plans?
    I'm getting stressed about all this stress, I'm off to the pub. Forget points, tis pints this country was built on.

    https://www.irishpost.com/news/irelands-chief-medical-officer-considering-plans-pubs-open-six-weeks-earlier-scheduled-184811


  • Options
    #1564
    Treppen
    Registered Users Posts: 4,591 ✭✭✭Treppen


    spurious wrote: »
    Squeaky wheels.

    Well if anything, fair fex to them. The students might wake up and recognise what a Union is for.


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    #1565
    randylonghorn
    Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 29,509 Mod ✭✭✭✭randylonghorn


    0_o
    Treppen wrote: »
    Well if anything, fair fex to them. The students might wake up and recognise what a Union is for.

    Typo?


  • Options
    #1566
    jayo76
    Registered Users Posts: 144 ✭✭jayo76


    spurious wrote: »
    Still daft.
    Who thinks these things up?

    I made this point yesterday. I would genuinely expect 2 students to get a H1 this year, however school has not had a H1 in History in the 3 years since grade change. Every year between 2010 and 2016 there were A1s, but current year will now suffer due to last 3 years??

    Well if I have to go ahead with it I will be predicting a H1 for both students, will stick to that prediction regardless of what my management propose in line with averages of last 3 years, will stick to it and back my students if the algorithim decides they are H2.

    This proposal yesterday has not changed how I see myself from advocate to judge of my students. I owe it to my students who I have taught for 6 years to back themm.


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    #1567
    man_no_plan
    Registered Users Posts: 1,018 ✭✭✭man_no_plan


    Why does everyone seem to think that principals will be dictating grades?

    All of this 'from on high' and 'powers that be' stuff.

    I imagine that unless someone is predicting H1's for everyone, wildly inflating grades or exacting some form of retribution on students they will agree with the teachers assessment.

    I'd worry about boys not being recognised fairly by teachers based on workrate. They always do better in the LC exams than any other test. Always some surprise in our school when the results come out.

    The girls, generally, just work hard all the time. The lads sometimes hide it a bit and put th ed boot down in april and may.


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    #1568
    jayo76
    Registered Users Posts: 144 ✭✭jayo76


    man_no_plan wrote: »
    Why does everyone seem to think that principals will be dictating grades?

    All of this 'from on high' and 'powers that be' stuff.

    I imagine that unless someone is predicting H1's for everyone, wildly inflating grades or exacting some form of retribution on students they will agree with the teachers assessment.

    I'd worry about boys not being recognised fairly by teachers based on workrate. They always do better in the LC exams than any other test. Always some surprise in our school when the results come out.

    The girls, generally, just work hard all the time. The lads sometimes hide it a bit and put th ed boot down in april and may.

    Its the algorithim more than management, my only fear in relation to management there would be if they took the view I couldnt assign H1 due to lack of last 3 years


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    #1569
    km79
    Registered Users Posts: 48,185 ✭✭✭✭km79


    Treppen wrote: »
    Ya no way could you be spacing students out in multiple rooms...

    In other unrelated news... Pubs to open end of June.

    No more than 4 people per 10sq meters.

    Anyone screaming for detailed plans?
    I'm getting stressed about all this stress, I'm off to the pub. Forget points, tis pints this country was built on.

    https://www.irishpost.com/news/irelands-chief-medical-officer-considering-plans-pubs-open-six-weeks-earlier-scheduled-184811

    you got my hopes up
    https://www.independent.ie/world-news/coronavirus/tony-holohan-wont-play-ball-on-hopes-of-pubs-opening-early-39192574.html


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    #1570
    rainbowtrout
    Registered Users Posts: 15,382 ✭✭✭✭rainbowtrout


    https://www.thejournal.ie/fairness-appeals-leaving-cert-5094993-May2020/


    If they get a grade in the written exam that is lower than their calculated grade, the students can choose the calculated grade. They can also choose a mix of subjects being assessed in the calculated grade method, or the written Leaving Cert exam method.


    I just saw this and went WTF????:eek::eek::eek:



    So I thought maybe the Journal have got the wrong end of the stick, but no


    https://www.gov.ie/en/publication/2f07eb-leaving-cert-2020-information/#information-for-leaving-cert-students
    29. Can I mix my 2020 exam grades and Calculated Grades in different subjects to get points for access to higher education?
    Yes. In these exceptional circumstances, all of the results issued on foot of the examinations this year, calculated grades; appeals and the later written examination will be considered the results of the 2020 Leaving Certificate.


    Mother of Christ, so if you actually do the written exam and score lower than was predicted for you, you can keep the makey uppy grade???? And you can mix and match between the set?????

    Why don't we just take teachers out of the equation, allow students to submit a set of predicted results for themselves and allow the DES to apply the curve and be done with it.


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    #1571
    jimmytwotimes 2013
    Registered Users Posts: 4,765 ✭✭✭jimmytwotimes 2013


    Upwards only reviews- like rent in Dublin

    Also if a student decides to take on, say, two papers and has months to focus on only those two papers, they'll probably do better than estimated grade.

    Call the teacher a boll1x then for underestimating capability even though a different set of conditions at play.

    System is open to manipulation.


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    #1572
    Mardy Bum
    Registered Users Posts: 3,674 ✭✭✭Mardy Bum


    jimmytwotimes 2013 wrote: »

    System is open to manipulation.

    This is what happens when you try to avoid being sued.


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    #1573
    rainbowtrout
    Registered Users Posts: 15,382 ✭✭✭✭rainbowtrout


    jimmytwotimes 2013 wrote: »
    Upwards only reviews- like rent in Dublin

    Also if a student decides to take on, say, two papers and has months to focus on those two papers only they'll probably do better than estimated grade.

    Call the teacher a boll1x then for underestimating capability even though a different set of conditions at play.

    System is open to manipulation.

    Ya years ago (like 80s early 90s) you could combine the best of your LC grades from different sittings, unlike now, it's one or the other, so there were cases of students going all out in one year on three subjects and then the following year on the other four.

    Could see it being open to manipulation for those who choose to sit the exams in winter and then use the combined grades to apply for college in 2021.


    If someone looking for a high points course was given predicted grades of 4H1, 1H2, 1H3, 1H4 for arguments sake, and it's in line with their ability as much as can be ascertained by the school, what's to stop them keeping the 4H1s and just studying two of those other subjects for the next 6 months to aim for another 2H1s?


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    #1574
    jimmytwotimes 2013
    Registered Users Posts: 4,765 ✭✭✭jimmytwotimes 2013


    rainbowtrout wrote: »
    Ya years ago (like 80s early 90s) you could combine the best of your LC grades from different sittings, unlike now, it's one or the other, so there were cases of students going all out in one year on three subjects and then the following year on the other four.

    Could see it being open to manipulation for those who choose to sit the exams in winter and then use the combined grades to apply for college in 2021.

    Was that called the matric or something?


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    #1575
    rainbowtrout
    Registered Users Posts: 15,382 ✭✭✭✭rainbowtrout


    jimmytwotimes 2013 wrote: »
    Was that called the matric or something?

    No, you used to be able to combine your best grades from two sittings of the LC.


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    #1576
    amacca
    Registered Users Posts: 6,841 ✭✭✭amacca


    jimmytwotimes 2013 wrote: »
    Upwards only reviews- like rent in Dublin

    Also if a student decides to take on, say, two papers and has months to focus on those two papers only they'll probably do better than estimated grade.

    Call the teacher a boll1x then for underestimating capability even though a different set of conditions at play.

    System is open to manipulation.

    Here's another thought process which will bring screams of that's not professional we are trusted to be professional but could be in someone's mind

    You might game the system a bit when ranking too....say you have a dead cert H1 (no such thing I suppose but as near as you can figure) maybe rank that student 2nd or 3rd knowing he/she can get the grade in the exam and bump up the other close candidate to top ranking guaranteeing them the H1 with it being unlikely they woukd opt for exam etc

    Probably unlikely to happen but could ultimately bump up the number comng out with the H1....and while perhaps not strategic in terms of college entry is be surprised if someone wasn't thinking it.....deoending on how much discretion/judgment is allowed

    I personally think criteria for deciding grade should be very inflexible so it's a level playing field to some extent ......still leaves the issue of private grind schools etc

    Personally I think this thing is a complete cluster****.


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    #1577
    pbthevet
    Registered Users Posts: 181 ✭✭pbthevet


    Most of the work is done in the months between mocks and june exams.

    I got 600 points in leaving but i got 420 in mocks. I started my study plan after the teaching element was over and then knuckled down.

    Exams before the mocks ie the school ones ........ were all over the place. Some teachers marked fair others couldn’t be arsed and personally i think they count for nothing. I never got all a’s in summer or xmas exams.

    I knuckled down because i wanted to be a vet. And i got there. But ud never have thought id of gotten the points if u looked back at my previous results.

    I know others who also did well in leaving and are doctors etc and some of them failed their mocks. No body gave a damn about the mocks. Sure u weren’t even finished being thought the subjects in most cases. U cud answer half the questions well and the rest were give it a go or u ran out of time etc.

    All the work is done in the months following. Ask anyone.

    So who is getting the 600 points this year ..... or whatever the max is now in new system. How are they going to work this out.

    Who gets to study medicine, Veterinary law etc??

    Its not going to work. These courses are in such demand that simple 5 points meant repeating the year sometimes.

    And what about the repeaters? How are they going to get a predicted grade? A second year wasted?

    Complete shambles


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    #1578
    randylonghorn
    Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 29,509 Mod ✭✭✭✭randylonghorn


    jimmytwotimes 2013 wrote: »
    Was that called the matric or something?
    No, the matric was an entrance exam for Uni set by the Unis. Originated when there was no LC / very few people did it. Didn't really match the LC syllabus anyway. Hung around for years, low take-up, eventually phased out.
    pbthevet wrote: »
    Exams before the mocks ie the school ones ........ were all over the place. Some teachers marked fair others couldn’t be arsed and personally i think they count for nothing.
    Probably sent out to be marked, very variable standards in marking of Mocks by companies compared to the real thing.
    pbthevet wrote: »
    I know others who also did well in leaving and are doctors etc and some of them failed their mocks. No body gave a damn about the mocks. Sure u weren’t even finished being thought the subjects in most cases. U cud answer half the questions well and the rest were give it a go or u ran out of time etc.
    Lots of teachers would say "treat the mocks to practise your timing / exam technique more than anything else".

    And in a normal year they would be right.

    So much wrong with the mocks tbh (including leaking of hints / questions) that I would assume / expect they will play a small part in "grade calculation" in most teachers' minds, unless they were set / corrected in-house.
    amacca wrote: »
    ... complete cluster****.
    pbthevet wrote: »
    Complete shambles
    Agreed.


  • Options
    #1579
    Millionaire only not
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,625 ✭✭✭Millionaire only not


    rainbowtrout wrote: »
    Ya years ago (like 80s early 90s) you could combine the best of your LC grades from different sittings, unlike now, it's one or the other, so there were cases of students going all out in one year on three subjects and then the following year on the other four.

    Could see it being open to manipulation for those who choose to sit the exams in winter and then use the combined grades to apply for college in 2021.


    If someone looking for a high points course was given predicted grades of 4H1, 1H2, 1H3, 1H4 for arguments sake, and it's in line with their ability as much as can be ascertained by the school, what's to stop them keeping the 4H1s and just studying two of those other subjects for the next 6 months to aim for another 2H1s?


    And what is wrong with it move the clock back few years they allowed u combine leaving certs half the people on here would fall into that category .
    Can’t u see by giving that is going to stop many a legal case .


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    #1580
    randylonghorn
    Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 29,509 Mod ✭✭✭✭randylonghorn


    Millionaire only not wrote: »
    Can’t u see by giving that is going to stop many a legal case .
    Which seems to be the main criterion, not fairness or accuracy, or any kind of comparability between years / results.


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    #1581
    spurious
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 27,171 CMod ✭✭✭✭spurious


    I wonder is ISSU like Iona, making lots of noise, but actually numbering in perhaps double or single figures.

    Clicking on a Facebook survey does not make me a member of anything.


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    #1582
    randylonghorn
    Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 29,509 Mod ✭✭✭✭randylonghorn


    spurious wrote: »
    I wonder is ISSU like Iona, making lots of noise, but actually numbering in perhaps double or single figures.

    Clicking on a Facebook survey does not make me a member of anything.
    Probably. There seems to be some kind of link between student councils in schools and it, but heaven knows how that works.

    I suspect it is mostly made up of the future debaters in the Hist, Philosoph, etc., prob. the future Young FG/FF/SF etc. too.


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    #1583
    r93kaey5p2izun
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,962 ✭✭✭r93kaey5p2izun


    How will the grinds schools come up with a grade? They often don't do Christmas and Summer exams. They rarely do class tests, and it's usually all opt in. The mocks are usually optional in the evening and many don't bother with them, or only do a few. In a lot of cases they will have little or no evidence upon which to grade a student.


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    #1584
    CrabRevolution
    Registered Users Posts: 2,841 ✭✭✭CrabRevolution


    pbthevet wrote: »
    Most of the work is done in the months between mocks and june exams.

    I got 600 points in leaving but i got 420 in mocks. I started my study plan after the teaching element was over and then knuckled down.

    Exams before the mocks ie the school ones ........ were all over the place. Some teachers marked fair others couldn’t be arsed and personally i think they count for nothing. I never got all a’s in summer or xmas exams.

    I knuckled down because i wanted to be a vet. And i got there. But ud never have thought id of gotten the points if u looked back at my previous results.

    I know others who also did well in leaving and are doctors etc and some of them failed their mocks. No body gave a damn about the mocks. Sure u weren’t even finished being thought the subjects in most cases. U cud answer half the questions well and the rest were give it a go or u ran out of time etc.

    All the work is done in the months following. Ask anyone.

    So who is getting the 600 points this year ..... or whatever the max is now in new system. How are they going to work this out.

    Who gets to study medicine, Veterinary law etc??

    Its not going to work. These courses are in such demand that simple 5 points meant repeating the year sometimes.

    And what about the repeaters? How are they going to get a predicted grade? A second year wasted?

    Complete shambles

    I'm beginning to think people are unaware how the points system works.
    They're under the impression that (using your example) the Head of Veterinary Science in UCD each year decides that "This year we'll only take students over 570 points" and that everyone with >570 points gets in. Rather than the real system where (aside from minimum subject grades) points are effectively allowed float freely and it's demand for limited places on a course that sets the points.

    It seems students (and/or parents) also reckon their predicted grade should be their best case scenario grade +1. As far as they are concerned this will bump every single one of them into the courses they wanted, but in normal circumstances probably wouldn't have gotten.

    In reality as you say, places are limited and thousands of students might slam into the 600 point ceiling with nothing to differentiate the legitimately entitled to the artificially inflated.


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    #1585
    randylonghorn
    Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 29,509 Mod ✭✭✭✭randylonghorn


    Chaya Fresh Shoehorn wrote: »
    How will the grinds schools come up with a grade? They often don't do Christmas and Summer exams. They rarely do class tests, and it's usually all opt in. The mocks are usually optional in the evening and many don't bother with them, or only do a few. In a lot of cases they will have little or no evidence upon which to grade a student.
    Ah but the grind schools teachers are experts at predicting exam questions, so predicting mere exam results will be chicken-feed for them! ;)

    I'm going for a walk now that the thunder has stopped, my cynicism is showing! >_>


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    #1586
    rainbowtrout
    Registered Users Posts: 15,382 ✭✭✭✭rainbowtrout


    Millionaire only not wrote: »
    And what is wrong with it move the clock back few years they allowed u combine leaving certs half the people on here would fall into that category .
    Can’t u see by giving that is going to stop many a legal case .

    It was stopped because you end up having people combine results to get 6H1s (or previous equivalent). Makes it hard to separate people out on high points applying for popular courses (medicine, dentistry, veterinary etc). It's not a level playing field because for the student sitting the exam for the first time they are trying to get their best 6 grades for points in one sitting, where as someone else was able to have 2 bites of the cherry and combine them from two.

    Can't imagine it was widespread for people aiming for middle of the road points as much as those at the top end.


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    #1587
    rainbowtrout
    Registered Users Posts: 15,382 ✭✭✭✭rainbowtrout


    Chaya Fresh Shoehorn wrote: »
    How will the grinds schools come up with a grade? They often don't do Christmas and Summer exams. They rarely do class tests, and it's usually all opt in. The mocks are usually optional in the evening and many don't bother with them, or only do a few. In a lot of cases they will have little or no evidence upon which to grade a student.

    They'll just give everyone top marks and show two fingers to the DES/SEC and say we dare you to pull down their marks.

    Or they'll be expected to provide a set of grades like everyone else and their 'school profile' will be used to pull them into line.


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    #1588
    r93kaey5p2izun
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,962 ✭✭✭r93kaey5p2izun


    randylonghorn wrote: »
    Ah but the grind schools teachers are experts at predicting exam questions, so predicting mere exam results will be chicken-feed for them! ;)

    I'm going for a walk now that the thunder has stopped, my cynicism is showing! >_>

    Ha! I'm picturing the likes of Aidan Roantree with >100 students per class (well really lecture), doesn't know anyone's name, no tests, no evidence to back up a prediction. Undoubtedly a very good Maths lecturer for those aiming for a H1, but I don't see how those like him will be able to comply with this process.


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    #1589
    rainbowtrout
    Registered Users Posts: 15,382 ✭✭✭✭rainbowtrout


    Chaya Fresh Shoehorn wrote: »
    Ha! I'm picturing the likes of Aidan Roantree with >100 students per class (well really lecture), doesn't know anyone's name, no tests, no evidence to back up a prediction. Undoubtedly a very good Maths lecturer for those aiming for a H1, but I don't see how those like him will be able to comply with this process.


    Maybe they'll just give the students a sheet and say 'fill in what you were aiming for...'


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    #1590
    MrDavid1976
    Closed Accounts Posts: 305 ✭✭MrDavid1976


    This leaving cert plan and the over-regulation generally which seems to be planned by the Government is off the wall.

    Of course we could have planned to have a socially distanced leaving cert in nearly three months time - it was simples. For gods sake the State exams are socially distanced already. If anyone seriously thinks that 18 years olds will be spending two metres apart by the end of July they will be living in LALA land. In fact running the leaving cert would have helped enforce social distancing.

    This issue is going to run and run for many months. Court cases, challenges, teachers unions going crazy. The cure is worse than the disease.

    These Govt. policies are going to lead to a massive depression and we may as well emigrate to where ever opens up.


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    #1591
    Mardy Bum
    Registered Users Posts: 3,674 ✭✭✭Mardy Bum


    rainbowtrout wrote: »
    Maybe they'll just give the students a sheet and say 'fill in what you were aiming for...'

    It should be taken for granted that this will happen in at least a small minority of private schools. These schools exist for a certain class or for those with aspirations of entering it. In the words of Bodie "the system is rigged".

    At the same time there will be public schools that will do what they like. This may be down to a teacher going out on a limb and helping their students or it could be top down.

    The idea that every member of a profession is angelic is laughable

    A much bigger issue than schools or teachers inflating grades purposefully is schools and teachers inflating them unknowingly which will happen in about 80% of cases according to the UCL report.

    The only way for the DES to counter this is to be ruthless with regard to the last three years worth of stats.

    .


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