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Deferred State Exams 2020 [SEE MOD NOTE POST #1]

political analyst

I'm aware that the new LC timetable will be published this June - public health permitting.

Regarding the usual schedule, why doesn't the State Exams Commission have the exams of both papers each in English, Irish and Maths in the Leaving and Junior Cert exams take place on the first 3 days of the exam period so that students will have the exams in the main subjects over with by the end of Day 3?

After all, the sooner the exams are over and done with, the better - right?!

MOD NOTE I'm setting up this thread as the one stop shop for all discusion about the state exams, preparing for these exams and the format this may take. Discussion can also take place about Mat leave contracts and factual information regarding these.
There will be a warning for anyone who:
a) moans about teachers holidays
b) moans about teachers pay
c) moans for the sake of moaning
D) this is NOT a discussion about school closures, that thread ran its course and this is not a replacement.
Usual forum rules also apply.

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Shn99

km79 wrote: »

Wait until the campaign for next years Leaving Cert cohort begins

It has already started on social media, 5th years looking for easier papers ect

Treppen

Ya no way could you be spacing students out in multiple rooms...

In other unrelated news... Pubs to open end of June.

No more than 4 people per 10sq meters.

Anyone screaming for detailed plans?
I'm getting stressed about all this stress, I'm off to the pub. Forget points, tis pints this country was built on.

https://www.irishpost.com/news/irelands-chief-medical-officer-considering-plans-pubs-open-six-weeks-earlier-scheduled-184811

Treppen

spurious wrote: »

Squeaky wheels.

Well if anything, fair fex to them. The students might wake up and recognise what a Union is for.

randylonghorn

0_o

Treppen wrote: »

Well if anything, fair fex to them. The students might wake up and recognise what a Union is for.

Typo?

jayo76

spurious wrote: »

Still daft.
Who thinks these things up?

I made this point yesterday. I would genuinely expect 2 students to get a H1 this year, however school has not had a H1 in History in the 3 years since grade change. Every year between 2010 and 2016 there were A1s, but current year will now suffer due to last 3 years??

Well if I have to go ahead with it I will be predicting a H1 for both students, will stick to that prediction regardless of what my management propose in line with averages of last 3 years, will stick to it and back my students if the algorithim decides they are H2.

This proposal yesterday has not changed how I see myself from advocate to judge of my students. I owe it to my students who I have taught for 6 years to back themm.

man_no_plan

Why does everyone seem to think that principals will be dictating grades?

All of this 'from on high' and 'powers that be' stuff.

I imagine that unless someone is predicting H1's for everyone, wildly inflating grades or exacting some form of retribution on students they will agree with the teachers assessment.

I'd worry about boys not being recognised fairly by teachers based on workrate. They always do better in the LC exams than any other test. Always some surprise in our school when the results come out.

The girls, generally, just work hard all the time. The lads sometimes hide it a bit and put th ed boot down in april and may.

jayo76

man_no_plan wrote: »

Why does everyone seem to think that principals will be dictating grades?

All of this 'from on high' and 'powers that be' stuff.

I imagine that unless someone is predicting H1's for everyone, wildly inflating grades or exacting some form of retribution on students they will agree with the teachers assessment.

I'd worry about boys not being recognised fairly by teachers based on workrate. They always do better in the LC exams than any other test. Always some surprise in our school when the results come out.

The girls, generally, just work hard all the time. The lads sometimes hide it a bit and put th ed boot down in april and may.

Its the algorithim more than management, my only fear in relation to management there would be if they took the view I couldnt assign H1 due to lack of last 3 years

km79

Treppen wrote: »

Ya no way could you be spacing students out in multiple rooms...

In other unrelated news... Pubs to open end of June.

No more than 4 people per 10sq meters.

Anyone screaming for detailed plans?
I'm getting stressed about all this stress, I'm off to the pub. Forget points, tis pints this country was built on.

https://www.irishpost.com/news/irelands-chief-medical-officer-considering-plans-pubs-open-six-weeks-earlier-scheduled-184811

you got my hopes up
https://www.independent.ie/world-news/coronavirus/tony-holohan-wont-play-ball-on-hopes-of-pubs-opening-early-39192574.html

rainbowtrout

https://www.thejournal.ie/fairness-appeals-leaving-cert-5094993-May2020/

If they get a grade in the written exam that is lower than their calculated grade, the students can choose the calculated grade. They can also choose a mix of subjects being assessed in the calculated grade method, or the written Leaving Cert exam method.

I just saw this and went WTF????:eek::eek::eek:

So I thought maybe the Journal have got the wrong end of the stick, but no

https://www.gov.ie/en/publication/2f07eb-leaving-cert-2020-information/#information-for-leaving-cert-students

29. Can I mix my 2020 exam grades and Calculated Grades in different subjects to get points for access to higher education?
Yes. In these exceptional circumstances, all of the results issued on foot of the examinations this year, calculated grades; appeals and the later written examination will be considered the results of the 2020 Leaving Certificate.

Mother of Christ, so if you actually do the written exam and score lower than was predicted for you, you can keep the makey uppy grade???? And you can mix and match between the set?????

Why don't we just take teachers out of the equation, allow students to submit a set of predicted results for themselves and allow the DES to apply the curve and be done with it.

jimmytwotimes 2013

Upwards only reviews- like rent in Dublin

Also if a student decides to take on, say, two papers and has months to focus on only those two papers, they'll probably do better than estimated grade.

Call the teacher a boll1x then for underestimating capability even though a different set of conditions at play.

System is open to manipulation.

Mardy Bum

jimmytwotimes 2013 wrote: »

System is open to manipulation.

This is what happens when you try to avoid being sued.

rainbowtrout

jimmytwotimes 2013 wrote: »

Upwards only reviews- like rent in Dublin

Also if a student decides to take on, say, two papers and has months to focus on those two papers only they'll probably do better than estimated grade.

Call the teacher a boll1x then for underestimating capability even though a different set of conditions at play.

System is open to manipulation.

Ya years ago (like 80s early 90s) you could combine the best of your LC grades from different sittings, unlike now, it's one or the other, so there were cases of students going all out in one year on three subjects and then the following year on the other four.

Could see it being open to manipulation for those who choose to sit the exams in winter and then use the combined grades to apply for college in 2021.

If someone looking for a high points course was given predicted grades of 4H1, 1H2, 1H3, 1H4 for arguments sake, and it's in line with their ability as much as can be ascertained by the school, what's to stop them keeping the 4H1s and just studying two of those other subjects for the next 6 months to aim for another 2H1s?

jimmytwotimes 2013

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Ya years ago (like 80s early 90s) you could combine the best of your LC grades from different sittings, unlike now, it's one or the other, so there were cases of students going all out in one year on three subjects and then the following year on the other four.

Could see it being open to manipulation for those who choose to sit the exams in winter and then use the combined grades to apply for college in 2021.

Was that called the matric or something?

rainbowtrout

jimmytwotimes 2013 wrote: »

Was that called the matric or something?

No, you used to be able to combine your best grades from two sittings of the LC.

amacca

jimmytwotimes 2013 wrote: »

Upwards only reviews- like rent in Dublin

Also if a student decides to take on, say, two papers and has months to focus on those two papers only they'll probably do better than estimated grade.

Call the teacher a boll1x then for underestimating capability even though a different set of conditions at play.

System is open to manipulation.

Here's another thought process which will bring screams of that's not professional we are trusted to be professional but could be in someone's mind

You might game the system a bit when ranking too....say you have a dead cert H1 (no such thing I suppose but as near as you can figure) maybe rank that student 2nd or 3rd knowing he/she can get the grade in the exam and bump up the other close candidate to top ranking guaranteeing them the H1 with it being unlikely they woukd opt for exam etc

Probably unlikely to happen but could ultimately bump up the number comng out with the H1....and while perhaps not strategic in terms of college entry is be surprised if someone wasn't thinking it.....deoending on how much discretion/judgment is allowed

I personally think criteria for deciding grade should be very inflexible so it's a level playing field to some extent ......still leaves the issue of private grind schools etc

Personally I think this thing is a complete cluster****.

pbthevet

Most of the work is done in the months between mocks and june exams.

I got 600 points in leaving but i got 420 in mocks. I started my study plan after the teaching element was over and then knuckled down.

Exams before the mocks ie the school ones ........ were all over the place. Some teachers marked fair others couldn’t be arsed and personally i think they count for nothing. I never got all a’s in summer or xmas exams.

I knuckled down because i wanted to be a vet. And i got there. But ud never have thought id of gotten the points if u looked back at my previous results.

I know others who also did well in leaving and are doctors etc and some of them failed their mocks. No body gave a damn about the mocks. Sure u weren’t even finished being thought the subjects in most cases. U cud answer half the questions well and the rest were give it a go or u ran out of time etc.

All the work is done in the months following. Ask anyone.

So who is getting the 600 points this year ..... or whatever the max is now in new system. How are they going to work this out.

Who gets to study medicine, Veterinary law etc??

Its not going to work. These courses are in such demand that simple 5 points meant repeating the year sometimes.

And what about the repeaters? How are they going to get a predicted grade? A second year wasted?

Complete shambles

randylonghorn

jimmytwotimes 2013 wrote: »

Was that called the matric or something?

No, the matric was an entrance exam for Uni set by the Unis. Originated when there was no LC / very few people did it. Didn't really match the LC syllabus anyway. Hung around for years, low take-up, eventually phased out.

pbthevet wrote: »

Exams before the mocks ie the school ones ........ were all over the place. Some teachers marked fair others couldn’t be arsed and personally i think they count for nothing.

Probably sent out to be marked, very variable standards in marking of Mocks by companies compared to the real thing.

pbthevet wrote: »

I know others who also did well in leaving and are doctors etc and some of them failed their mocks. No body gave a damn about the mocks. Sure u weren’t even finished being thought the subjects in most cases. U cud answer half the questions well and the rest were give it a go or u ran out of time etc.

Lots of teachers would say "treat the mocks to practise your timing / exam technique more than anything else".

And in a normal year they would be right.

So much wrong with the mocks tbh (including leaking of hints / questions) that I would assume / expect they will play a small part in "grade calculation" in most teachers' minds, unless they were set / corrected in-house.

amacca wrote: »

... complete cluster****.

pbthevet wrote: »

Complete shambles

Agreed.

Millionaire only not

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Ya years ago (like 80s early 90s) you could combine the best of your LC grades from different sittings, unlike now, it's one or the other, so there were cases of students going all out in one year on three subjects and then the following year on the other four.

Could see it being open to manipulation for those who choose to sit the exams in winter and then use the combined grades to apply for college in 2021.

If someone looking for a high points course was given predicted grades of 4H1, 1H2, 1H3, 1H4 for arguments sake, and it's in line with their ability as much as can be ascertained by the school, what's to stop them keeping the 4H1s and just studying two of those other subjects for the next 6 months to aim for another 2H1s?

And what is wrong with it move the clock back few years they allowed u combine leaving certs half the people on here would fall into that category .
Can’t u see by giving that is going to stop many a legal case .

randylonghorn

Millionaire only not wrote: »

Can’t u see by giving that is going to stop many a legal case .

Which seems to be the main criterion, not fairness or accuracy, or any kind of comparability between years / results.

spurious

I wonder is ISSU like Iona, making lots of noise, but actually numbering in perhaps double or single figures.

Clicking on a Facebook survey does not make me a member of anything.

randylonghorn

spurious wrote: »

I wonder is ISSU like Iona, making lots of noise, but actually numbering in perhaps double or single figures.

Clicking on a Facebook survey does not make me a member of anything.

Probably. There seems to be some kind of link between student councils in schools and it, but heaven knows how that works.

I suspect it is mostly made up of the future debaters in the Hist, Philosoph, etc., prob. the future Young FG/FF/SF etc. too.

r93kaey5p2izun

How will the grinds schools come up with a grade? They often don't do Christmas and Summer exams. They rarely do class tests, and it's usually all opt in. The mocks are usually optional in the evening and many don't bother with them, or only do a few. In a lot of cases they will have little or no evidence upon which to grade a student.

CrabRevolution

pbthevet wrote: »

Most of the work is done in the months between mocks and june exams.

I got 600 points in leaving but i got 420 in mocks. I started my study plan after the teaching element was over and then knuckled down.

Exams before the mocks ie the school ones ........ were all over the place. Some teachers marked fair others couldn’t be arsed and personally i think they count for nothing. I never got all a’s in summer or xmas exams.

I knuckled down because i wanted to be a vet. And i got there. But ud never have thought id of gotten the points if u looked back at my previous results.

I know others who also did well in leaving and are doctors etc and some of them failed their mocks. No body gave a damn about the mocks. Sure u weren’t even finished being thought the subjects in most cases. U cud answer half the questions well and the rest were give it a go or u ran out of time etc.

All the work is done in the months following. Ask anyone.

So who is getting the 600 points this year ..... or whatever the max is now in new system. How are they going to work this out.

Who gets to study medicine, Veterinary law etc??

Its not going to work. These courses are in such demand that simple 5 points meant repeating the year sometimes.

And what about the repeaters? How are they going to get a predicted grade? A second year wasted?

Complete shambles

I'm beginning to think people are unaware how the points system works.
They're under the impression that (using your example) the Head of Veterinary Science in UCD each year decides that "This year we'll only take students over 570 points" and that everyone with >570 points gets in. Rather than the real system where (aside from minimum subject grades) points are effectively allowed float freely and it's demand for limited places on a course that sets the points.

It seems students (and/or parents) also reckon their predicted grade should be their best case scenario grade +1. As far as they are concerned this will bump every single one of them into the courses they wanted, but in normal circumstances probably wouldn't have gotten.

In reality as you say, places are limited and thousands of students might slam into the 600 point ceiling with nothing to differentiate the legitimately entitled to the artificially inflated.

randylonghorn

Chaya Fresh Shoehorn wrote: »

How will the grinds schools come up with a grade? They often don't do Christmas and Summer exams. They rarely do class tests, and it's usually all opt in. The mocks are usually optional in the evening and many don't bother with them, or only do a few. In a lot of cases they will have little or no evidence upon which to grade a student.

Ah but the grind schools teachers are experts at predicting exam questions, so predicting mere exam results will be chicken-feed for them!

I'm going for a walk now that the thunder has stopped, my cynicism is showing! >_>

rainbowtrout

Millionaire only not wrote: »

And what is wrong with it move the clock back few years they allowed u combine leaving certs half the people on here would fall into that category .
Can’t u see by giving that is going to stop many a legal case .

It was stopped because you end up having people combine results to get 6H1s (or previous equivalent). Makes it hard to separate people out on high points applying for popular courses (medicine, dentistry, veterinary etc). It's not a level playing field because for the student sitting the exam for the first time they are trying to get their best 6 grades for points in one sitting, where as someone else was able to have 2 bites of the cherry and combine them from two.

Can't imagine it was widespread for people aiming for middle of the road points as much as those at the top end.

rainbowtrout

Chaya Fresh Shoehorn wrote: »

How will the grinds schools come up with a grade? They often don't do Christmas and Summer exams. They rarely do class tests, and it's usually all opt in. The mocks are usually optional in the evening and many don't bother with them, or only do a few. In a lot of cases they will have little or no evidence upon which to grade a student.

They'll just give everyone top marks and show two fingers to the DES/SEC and say we dare you to pull down their marks.

Or they'll be expected to provide a set of grades like everyone else and their 'school profile' will be used to pull them into line.

r93kaey5p2izun

randylonghorn wrote: »

Ah but the grind schools teachers are experts at predicting exam questions, so predicting mere exam results will be chicken-feed for them!

I'm going for a walk now that the thunder has stopped, my cynicism is showing! >_>

Ha! I'm picturing the likes of Aidan Roantree with >100 students per class (well really lecture), doesn't know anyone's name, no tests, no evidence to back up a prediction. Undoubtedly a very good Maths lecturer for those aiming for a H1, but I don't see how those like him will be able to comply with this process.

rainbowtrout

Chaya Fresh Shoehorn wrote: »

Ha! I'm picturing the likes of Aidan Roantree with >100 students per class (well really lecture), doesn't know anyone's name, no tests, no evidence to back up a prediction. Undoubtedly a very good Maths lecturer for those aiming for a H1, but I don't see how those like him will be able to comply with this process.

Maybe they'll just give the students a sheet and say 'fill in what you were aiming for...'

MrDavid1976

This leaving cert plan and the over-regulation generally which seems to be planned by the Government is off the wall.

Of course we could have planned to have a socially distanced leaving cert in nearly three months time - it was simples. For gods sake the State exams are socially distanced already. If anyone seriously thinks that 18 years olds will be spending two metres apart by the end of July they will be living in LALA land. In fact running the leaving cert would have helped enforce social distancing.

This issue is going to run and run for many months. Court cases, challenges, teachers unions going crazy. The cure is worse than the disease.

These Govt. policies are going to lead to a massive depression and we may as well emigrate to where ever opens up.

Mardy Bum

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Maybe they'll just give the students a sheet and say 'fill in what you were aiming for...'

It should be taken for granted that this will happen in at least a small minority of private schools. These schools exist for a certain class or for those with aspirations of entering it. In the words of Bodie "the system is rigged".

At the same time there will be public schools that will do what they like. This may be down to a teacher going out on a limb and helping their students or it could be top down.

The idea that every member of a profession is angelic is laughable

A much bigger issue than schools or teachers inflating grades purposefully is schools and teachers inflating them unknowingly which will happen in about 80% of cases according to the UCL report.

The only way for the DES to counter this is to be ruthless with regard to the last three years worth of stats.

.