Biological males in women's sport

Candamir · 24-02-2019 1:16pm

klaaaz wrote: »

Alot of posters here(the civil ones) with opposing views to the likes of myself on the transgender issue never object to the posters(uncivil) who post downright ugly ignorant attacking hostility to transgender people. It was surprisingly nice to see Ceadaoin post that rebuttal.

So why couldn’t you just thank Ceadaoin, without adding the (not so) passive aggressive ‘shocking’.
Most of the measured posters on this thread have been very supportive of transgender people, so I don’t see how it is shocking at all.

klaaaz · 24-02-2019 1:30pm

Zorya wrote: »

That's because - well, for me personally - I generally scroll right past hostile posts from any side of any discussion. There are plenty of radical assertions from all sides - to address each one would be entirely disruptive, but maybe that's a tactic for derailing things, I don't know.

Candamir wrote: »

So why couldn’t you just thank Ceadaoin, without adding the (not so) passive aggressive ‘shocking’.
Most of the measured posters on this thread have been very supportive of transgender people, so I don’t see how it is shocking at all.

When the unmeasured posters do post outrageous bigotry, ye the "measured" posters all go quiet. That's like condoning and tolerating those attacks on transgender people. And as you know as a result, the civil discussion gets poisoned.

Zorya · 24-02-2019 1:43pm

klaaaz wrote: »

When the unmeasured posters do post outrageous bigotry, ye the "measured" posters all go quiet. That's like condoning and tolerating those attacks on transgender people. And as you know as a result, the civil discussion gets poisoned.

It's not really that, Klaaz. I know it might look a bit like that, but, well, from my own point of view at least, it is really that I choose to not engage with certain kinds of posts. There are many debates on boards where people come in from time to time, even often, that could appear to be on the ''side'' I support, and post things that are way too extreme, heated or radical for my tastes. I do get a bit of a recoil reflex. But I presume that all of us can see when people have extreme and untenable opinions - there is no point in tracking down every person and holding them accountable for what they holler into a room. That would make discussion of any sort unfeasible.

Candamir · 24-02-2019 1:54pm

^ikewise. I don’t thank posts I don’t agree with. If there was an ‘unlike’ button, I’d use it on those posts, but I’d agree with the above.
Please don’t take it, or accuse me, of condoning attacks on transgender people. I absolutely do not.

Franz Von Peppercorn · 24-02-2019 1:58pm

klaaaz wrote: »

If I read this right, you're asking about cisgender men with low testosterone which has the same level as women?

The sports bodies have their rules for competition in female sports, as we're concentrating on athletics in this thread..

a) she must be recognised at law either as female or as intersex (or equivalent);

(b) she must reduce her blood testosterone level to below five (5) nmol/L for a continuous period of at least six months (e.g., by use of hormonal contraceptives); and

(c) thereafter she must maintain her blood testosterone level below five (5) nmol/L continuously (ie: whether she is in competition or out of competition) for so long as she wishes to remain eligible.

Recognised in law has just become easier in many countries because of self id, and it’s possible that the testosterone rules may be found illegal in those countries. That’s the issue I think. McKinnon is herself testament to that. She competes without any medical intervention except the testosterone reduction she doesn’t want (as far as I can see) and is talking of challenging that.

Franz Von Peppercorn · 24-02-2019 2:00pm

klaaaz wrote: »

When the unmeasured posters do post outrageous bigotry, ye the "measured" posters all go quiet. That's like condoning and tolerating those attacks on transgender people. And as you know as a result, the civil discussion gets poisoned.

I agree with you but we don’t have an unlike button here, and I’m not sure I want one.

Generally drive by one line posts are not good for discussion. What often happens though is posters read the op and respond to that rather than the discussion as it goes on.

benjamin d · 24-02-2019 2:59pm

klaaaz wrote: »

When the unmeasured posters do post outrageous bigotry, ye the "measured" posters all go quiet. That's like condoning and tolerating those attacks on transgender people. And as you know as a result, the civil discussion gets poisoned.

There was an "unmeasured" bigoted post here 2 days ago. I didn't respond in thread but reported it. The post was removed within an hour - as a result the thread continued un-derailed. React to discussion, not nonsense. But of course as said above some people want to lump all dissent in a nice easy box with nazis and homophobes and bigots. The issue is not that simple at all.

Gimme A Pound · 24-02-2019 3:16pm

Zorya wrote: »

The conflation of the two types is essential to the disruption of the debate. People who object to the push of unscientific ideology regarding transgenderism have to be equated with bigoted transphobic monsters. It is constant on boards, this attitude. And elsewhere.

And conversely, some who are sympathetic to trans folks will not back down in support of absolutely anything related to transgender. It can only be one way or the other according to some. I don't doubt being transgender is a legitimate condition. The abuse some get is horrific and saddening.

But that doesn't mean it's essential for me to support the absurdness that is allowing those with a physical advantage compete in major sporting events.

Gimme A Pound · 24-02-2019 3:17pm

klaaaz wrote: »

When the unmeasured posters do post outrageous bigotry, ye the "measured" posters all go quiet. That's like condoning and tolerating those attacks on transgender people. And as you know as a result, the civil discussion gets poisoned.

Well you don't defend us from idiocy like we are bigots and transphobic and ignorant. Not that you have to.

I usually don't react to nasty posts because a reaction is all they are looking for and they won't last long.

Candamir · 24-02-2019 3:22pm

Konnor Stale Stack wrote: »

And conversely, some who are sympathetic to trans folks will not back down in support of absolutely anything related to transgender. It can only be one way or the other according to some. I don't doubt being transgender is a legitimate condition. The abuse some get is horrific and saddening.

But that doesn't mean it's essential for me to support the absurdness that is allowing those with a physical advantage compete in major sporting events.

I think Martina Navratilova is a perfect example. She clearly supports transgender people though her words and actions, but when she disagrees on this topic she is subject to abuse and bullying from the radicals.
I think that overall, this kind of behaviour from the extreme side of the argument will only do harm to the overall movement - we’re already seeing many LBG and also T people trying to distance themselves from the vocal radicals.

Ultimanemo · 24-02-2019 3:24pm

They should have transgender competitions, only transgenders are allowed in them

ceadaoin. · 24-02-2019 5:14pm

klaaaz wrote: »

Alot of posters here(the civil ones) with opposing views to the likes of myself on the transgender issue never object to the posters(uncivil) who post downright ugly ignorant attacking hostility to transgender people. It was surprisingly nice to see Ceadaoin post that rebuttal.

I don't respond to those posts because they get deleted soon enough anyway so engaging only derails the thread. That doesn't mean I agree or support them in anyway.

I remember a pretty nasty comment that was directed at you klaaz, can't remember if it was on this thread. I very nearly replied but it was deleted within a short time. No one deserves that kind of abuse.

Disagreeing with some aspects of transgender ideology and believing that biological sex matters in many cases, is not transphobic and the conflation of the two is nothing more than an attempt to shut down debate.

Dante7 · 24-02-2019 10:31pm

It's beginning to look like the tide has slowly started to turn since Martina's comments. There has been a high profile resignation from Stonewall. A critical review of mermaids and other leaks. But more importantly, mainstream journalists now seem emboldened to be able to report on the issues. This whole house of lies is about to collapse.

http://amp.washingtontimes.com/news/2019/feb/24/terry-miller-andraya-yearwood-transgender-sprinter/?__twitter_impression=true

klaaaz · 24-02-2019 11:38pm

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

Recognised in law has just become easier in many countries because of self id, and it’s possible that the testosterone rules may be found illegal in those countries. That’s the issue I think. McKinnon is herself testament to that. She competes without any medical intervention except the testosterone reduction she doesn’t want (as far as I can see) and is talking of challenging that.

ceadaoin. wrote: »

I don't respond to those posts because they get deleted soon enough anyway so engaging only derails the thread. That doesn't mean I agree or support them in anyway.

I remember a pretty nasty comment that was directed at you klaaz, can't remember if it was on this thread. I very nearly replied but it was deleted within a short time. No one deserves that kind of abuse.

Disagreeing with some aspects of transgender ideology and believing that biological sex matters in many cases, is not transphobic and the conflation of the two is nothing more than an attempt to shut down debate.

There have been so many posts and threads on the transgender issue in the short period since I first registered here, I think I know what you referred to, it might have been a from a re-reg late at night. As the other poster said, "drive-by" posters who only contribute ignorant bigotry are a problem here on boards.

Anyway as this thread is many months old, I think I had set out my personal opinion on transgender sport a while back in that a transgender athlete should have the surgery before competing. The complexity of that is many young people(18+) at their prime cannot obtain surgery due to cost and huge waiting lists, if only that was fixed in an ideal world. Apparently the surgery option is not even acceptable to the anti-trans radicals here on boards(like the Fallon Fox objectors) who will always deny MTF transsexuals their identity(still unjustly calling them men) and try to erase them(deny their rights) and yes I know some trans activists outside boards would object to the surgery option too as being "too strict".

As for McKinnon being brought up by Franz above, she won an over 35 event, she ain't a household name. I only first heard of her here, might have been this thread! Has McKinnon had medical intervention and if so, what type and for how long?

benjamin d · 25-02-2019 11:46am

klaaaz wrote: »

Apparently the surgery option is not even acceptable to the anti-trans radicals here on boards(like the Fallon Fox objectors) who will always deny MTF transsexuals their identity(still unjustly calling them men) and try to erase them(deny their rights)...

See here's a perfect example of trying to conflate radical bigoty with normal, science-based objections to an agenda-driven and extremely damaging bit of social engineering. This is fundamentally not about trans rights, it's about women's rights to compete in and enjoy sports. This right was hard fought and only becoming a mainstream occurrence in the very recent past for many sports.

No matter what you say, or how many times you say it, a MTF transgender person is and always will be biologically a man, and retains residual advantages over women that will never be negated by testosterone monitoring. I and almost all others in this thread have no problems with transgender people and their rights to live their lives however they like, but when that means destroying the means of inspiration, health, and competition for wholly half of the population we have to draw the line. For you to equate that with radicalism or Nazism or whatever is abhorrent, and is a reflection on you more than anyone here.

Calhoun · 25-02-2019 12:34pm

benjamin d wrote: »

See here's a perfect example of trying to conflate radical bigoty with normal, science-based objections to an agenda-driven and extremely damaging bit of social engineering. This is fundamentally not about trans rights, it's about women's rights to compete in and enjoy sports. This right was hard fought and only becoming a mainstream occurrence in the very recent past for many sports.

No matter what you say, or how many times you say it, a MTF transgender person is and always will be biologically a man, and retains residual advantages over women that will never be negated by testosterone monitoring. I and almost all others in this thread have no problems with transgender people and their rights to live their lives however they like, but when that means destroying the means of inspiration, health, and competition for wholly half of the population we have to draw the line. For you to equate that with radicalism or Nazism or whatever is abhorrent, and is a reflection on you more than anyone here.

Usual strawman tactics, designed to deflect from actual issue being discussed. I would go as far as saying there are radicals involved but not where we are being led to believe.

I feel very sorry for women who are being left behind because they are deemed to be lesser in the grand scheme of victimhood.

mazcon · 25-02-2019 1:06pm

I can only speak for myself when I say that I have no problem with the legal fiction created by an individual being granted a GRC. That legal fiction says that this person is now a woman (or a man). The problem I have is when I am am expected to believe that the legal fiction has changed biological fact. If I could use the analogy of another common type of legal fiction: If I gave birth to a baby and gave her up for adoption a legal fiction would be created whereby I and her biological father would become legal strangers to her and her adoptive parents would become her legal parents and be recognised as such with all the privilege and responsibility attached to that title. No one would try and insist that her adoptive parents were now also biologically her parents because that would be an impossibility. The only time my parenthood would be relevent would be if a family medical history was needed for whatever reason, then my historyand that of her biological father would be relevent. In all other issues her biological parents would be her parents in the eyes of the law.
When a man is granted a GRC he becomes a woman in the eyes of the law and is treated as such and should not be discriminated against for her new identity. Legally transwomen are a subset of women. However, at a biological level it is not possible to change sex so biologically transwomen are a subset of men. This biological reality is extremely relevent in sports and to suggest that naming this reality in this context is bigotry or hate speech is ludicrous.

klaaaz · 25-02-2019 1:24pm

benjamin d wrote: »

See here's a perfect example of trying to conflate radical bigoty with normal, science-based objections to an agenda-driven and extremely damaging bit of social engineering. This is fundamentally not about trans rights, it's about women's rights to compete in and enjoy sports. This right was hard fought and only becoming a mainstream occurrence in the very recent past for many sports.

No matter what you say, or how many times you say it, a MTF transgender person is and always will be biologically a man, and retains residual advantages over women that will never be negated by testosterone monitoring. .

Please link the scientific backup to the highlighted statement as it runs contrary to the IAAF and the IOC for example. None of the objectors to MTF transsexual competitors in sport in this thread has ever sourced a medical scientific consensus as their backup.

Candamir · 25-02-2019 2:45pm

klaaaz wrote: »

Please link the scientific backup to the highlighted statement as it runs contrary to the IAAF and the IOC for example. None of the objectors to MTF transsexual competitors in sport in this thread has ever sourced a medical scientific consensus as their backup.

https://medium.com/@Antonia_Lee/the-iocs-transgender-guidelines-are-unscientific-and-pose-a-serious-risk-to-the-health-of-both-5f5f808748e2

The above link is a good summary I think of the ‘science’ or lack of, being used by the IOC to allow transgender athletes to compete in women’s sports.
The reality is that there isn’t a whole lot of research in the area, and what’s there is small scale and often poorly conducted. IMO, before we allow transgender women, who are biologically male to compete in women’s sports (and in particular those that transitioned after puberty) we should have the science to prove that they do not retain their male advantage.

Tbh though, the science behind the issue is something I’m willing to debate.

Calling me an ‘anti trans radical’, accusing me of ‘denying transsexuals their identy’, denying them their rights’ and ‘trying to erase them’, because I think the subject deserves debate is offside.

ceadaoin. · 25-02-2019 3:50pm

Once again, the two transgender athletes have finished first and second at the state championships in Connecticut.

http://amp.washingtontimes.com/news/2019/feb/24/terry-miller-andraya-yearwood-transgender-sprinter/?__twitter_impression=true

Quote from one of their competitors who has now missed out on being seen by more college scouts to potentially receive a college scholarship

“We all know the outcome of the race before it even starts; it’s demoralizing,” she said. “I fully support and am happy for these athletes for being true to themselves. They should have the right to express themselves in school, but athletics have always had extra rules to keep the competition fair.”

And according to the two athletes in question, yes they have an advantage but the girls just need to try harder to beat them

“One high jumper could be taller and have longer legs than another, but the other could have perfect form, and then do better,” she said. “One sprinter could have parents who spend so much money on personal training for their child, which in turn, would cause that child to run faster.”

Miller, who declined to be interviewed for this story, has said that if she felt a competitor had an unfair advantage, it would simply push her to try to improve

GreeBo · 25-02-2019 3:55pm

klaaaz wrote: »

Please link the scientific backup to the highlighted statement as it runs contrary to the IAAF and the IOC for example. None of the objectors to MTF transsexual competitors in sport in this thread has ever sourced a medical scientific consensus as their backup.

You use 2 athletics organisations to backup scientific facts?

GreeBo · 25-02-2019 4:04pm

trans athlete wrote:

One high jumper could be taller and have longer legs than another, but the other could have perfect form, and then do better,” she said. “One sprinter could have parents who spend so much money on personal training for their child, which in turn, would cause that child to run faster.”

One athlete could be more manly than another for example or more testosterony.

Zorya · 25-02-2019 4:06pm

ceadaoin. wrote: »

Once again, the two transgender athletes have finished first and second at the state championships in Connecticut.

http://amp.washingtontimes.com/news/2019/feb/24/terry-miller-andraya-yearwood-transgender-sprinter/?__twitter_impression=true

Quote from one of their competitors who has now missed out on being seen by more college scouts to potentially receive a college scholarship

And according to the two athletes in question, yes they have an advantage but the girls just need to try harder to beat them

It's just unfair. Not just regarding scholarships etc., but in terms of history. We have records going back many decades now in sport, and beating old records and seeing how new generations match up is part of the story of being human. My father in law held a sporting record that was unmatched for 3 decades, he is so proud of it - these kind of things inspire people and form history. And now the history of female sporting achievement is being rewritten - so if it continues we will not know what is baseline for women's sporting potential in this era. I think it's terribly unfair.

Miller is the third-faster runner in the country in the girls’ 55-meter dash. Yearwood is close behind, tied for seventh nationally.

These transwomen are challenging female records. Third fastest girl is a biological male.

Personally I don't think we should be encouraging people to go swiftly towards surgery as surgery is such a heavy step to take, and essentially mutilating. It is an enorrmous decision to make before the frontal cortex is fully developed in the mid 20s. There are so many young girls detransitioning now in their early 20s, and have to deal with the left overs from testosterone, like hairiness, male pattern baldness, deeper voices. Some have had their breasts removed , and as they say they have to live now with the scars. A transwoman who has testes and penis removed has made a hugely life-changing decision, and if they ever change their mind they will never regain proper function. Perhaps the best thing would be trans leagues, and separate sporting records, scholarships, sponsorships etc. Really, it would be terrible to rush people to surgery just as they turn 18 or even older. That's just what I think. It is too much suffering.

paleoperson · 25-02-2019 4:09pm

ceadaoin. wrote: »

Once again, the two transgender athletes have finished first and second at the state championships in Connecticut.

http://amp.washingtontimes.com/news/2019/feb/24/terry-miller-andraya-yearwood-transgender-sprinter/?__twitter_impression=true

Quote from one of their competitors who has now missed out on being seen by more college scouts to potentially receive a college scholarship

And according to the two athletes in question, yes they have an advantage but the girls just need to try harder to beat them

I genuinely believed this farce had peaked last year with that Australian man playing in the womens AFL and then moving to professional women's handball.

Why don't sports just ban them at all levels? It's incredulous.

Trans people do NOT get to compete in women's sports.

klaaaz · 25-02-2019 4:12pm

Candamir wrote: »

https://medium.com/@Antonia_Lee/the-iocs-transgender-guidelines-are-unscientific-and-pose-a-serious-risk-to-the-health-of-both-5f5f808748e2

The above link is a good summary I think of the ‘science’ or lack of, being used by the IOC to allow transgender athletes to compete in women’s sports.
The reality is that there isn’t a whole lot of research in the area, and what’s there is small scale and often poorly conducted. IMO, before we allow transgender women, who are biologically male to compete in women’s sports (and in particular those that transitioned after puberty) we should have the science to prove that they do not retain their male advantage.

Tbh though, the science behind the issue is something I’m willing to debate.

That link is behind a paywall. Can you summarise what it says?

Candamir wrote: »

Calling me an ‘anti trans radical’, accusing me of ‘denying transsexuals their identy’, denying them their rights’ and ‘trying to erase them’, because I think the subject deserves debate is offside.

Who accused you? Certainly was not me, there are others here and on other transgender related threads who have denied transsexuals their rights in civil life. Note the difference between the broad term transgender and transsexual (post surgery)

GreeBo wrote:

You use 2 athletics organisations to backup scientific facts?

They consulted medical scientists especially in endocrinology don't ya think?

GreeBo · 25-02-2019 4:16pm

klaaaz wrote: »

They consulted medical scientists especially in endocrinology don't ya think?

You tell us, they are your "evidence".

klaaaz · 25-02-2019 4:20pm

GreeBo wrote: »

You tell us, they are your "evidence".

https://www.iaaf.org/news/press-release/eligibility-regulations-for-female-classifica?utm_source=fc&utm_medium=silverpop&utm_campaign=IAAF%20introduces%20new%20eligibility%20regulations%20for%20female%20classification&utm_content=article-arrow

IAAF wrote:

“The latest research we have undertaken, and data we have compiled, show that there is a performance advantage in female athletes with DSD over the track distances covered by this rule,” said Dr Stephane Bermon from the IAAF Medical and Science Department.

Where is your evidence?

Candamir · 25-02-2019 4:24pm

ceadaoin. wrote: »

And according to the two athletes in question, yes they have an advantage but the girls just need to try harder to beat them

Really? Try harder? When boys high school records are approximating and beating the women’s records in athletics, how can these girls hope to beat these trans athletes unless they are supremely more talented and train much much harder than they do? Hardly fair.

A quote from a piece from the sports editor of the Independant:
https://www.google.ie/amp/s/www.independent.co.uk/sport/general/athletics/caster-semenya-news-gender-martina-navratilova-trans-cas-jonathan-liew-column-a8792861.html%3famp

“But let’s follow this argument all the way through. Let’s say the floodgates do open. Let’s say transgender athletes pour into women’s sport, and let’s say, despite the flimsy and poorly-understood relationship between testosterone and elite performance, they dominate everything they touch. They sweep up Grand Slam tennis titles and cycling world championships. They monopolise the Olympics. They fill our football and cricket and netball teams. Why would that be bad? Really? Imagine the power of a trans child or teenager seeing a trans athlete on the top step of the Olympic podium. In a way, it would be inspiring.

Inspiring for who? For the millions of girls and women (who already tend to opt out of sports early)? Or for the very few trans athletes who already have an advantage, as conceded by the two Connecticut athletes.
Is this really something to strive for??

Candamir · 25-02-2019 4:27pm

klaaaz wrote: »

Who accused you? Certainly was not me, there are others here and on other transgender related threads who have denied transsexuals their rights in civil life. Note the difference between the broad term transgender and transsexual (post surgery)

You did Klaaaz. You dumped me and anybody else who has issues allowing trans women compete in female catagories into your transphobic catch all.

Candamir · 25-02-2019 4:31pm

klaaaz wrote: »

“The latest research we have undertaken, and data we have compiled, show that there is a performance advantage in female athletes with DSD over the track distances covered by this rule,” said Dr Stephane Bermon from the IAAF Medical and Science Department.

Where is your evidence?

What do you think this quote means?

Biological males in women's sport

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