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Madeleine McCann

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    #1952
    retro:electro
    Registered Users Posts: 21,039 ✭✭✭✭retro:electro


    She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)
    Plumbthedepths wrote: »
    He never stopped searching for her since the day she disappeared? Didn't he go for a run or a game of tennis the day after she vanished?

    This has been covered. Read the thread.


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    #1953
    Charmeleon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 437 ✭✭Charmeleon


    Yes, they actually never once joined the organised searches. Great jogging to be had down there though according to their blog. Before we had ‘Map my Run’ you had to use the blog about your missing daughter to brag about how fast you made it to the cliff top that morning.

    But surely they were advised to stay at home, always happens. Just like they were told by someone that they couldn’t be emotional in TV appearances so they were able to follow that very easily.


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    #1954
    retro:electro
    Registered Users Posts: 21,039 ✭✭✭✭retro:electro


    She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)
    It’s standard procedure to advise against parental involvement in organised searches. This is done for a number of reasons, the child could return home, there could be a ransom call, to prevent you coming across something upsetting (body) and to preserve evidence. This is very basic stuff here.

    When a child has disappeared, most of the initial searching of the area where the child is believed to have been last will be coordinated by law enforcement -either Federal, State, or local, depending on the circumstances of the disappearance. Law enforcement need to direct the search effort in order to make sure that the search is performed properly and that the evidence located during the search and at the crime scene is properly protected and preserved.

    Involvement in the search or lack there of should not be used to support potential innocence or guilt. Unless of course you are an amateur internet sleuth who is struggling with facts and resigns to grasping at straws and then it seems anything goes.


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    #1955
    Plumbthedepths
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,653 ✭✭✭✭Plumbthedepths


    retro:electro wrote:
    This has been covered. Read the thread.

    Just responding to your claim, no interest in reading back over this thread.


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    #1956
    retro:electro
    Registered Users Posts: 21,039 ✭✭✭✭retro:electro


    She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)
    Okay ¯\_(ツ)_/¯


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    #1957
    Charmeleon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 437 ✭✭Charmeleon


    retro:electro wrote: »
    It’s standard procedure to advise against parental involvement in organised searches. This is done for a number of reasons, the child could return home, there could be a ransom call, to prevent you coming across something upsetting (body) and to preserve evidence. This is very basic stuff here.

    When a child has disappeared, most of the initial searching of the area where the child is believed to have been last will be coordinated by law enforcement -either Federal, State, or local, depending on the circumstances of the disappearance. Law enforcement need to direct the search effort in order to make sure that the search is performed properly and that the evidence located during the search and at the crime scene is properly protected and preserved.

    Involvement in the search or lack there of should not be used to support potential innocence or guilt. Unless of course you are an amateur internet sleuth who is struggling with facts and resigns to grasping at straws and then it seems anything goes.

    Initial searches, sure. No problem. Volunteers were out for weeks. Kate was asked did she not feel they should be out there helping and none of the above reasons even occurred to her. She said they had ‘been working really hard’.


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    #1958
    retro:electro
    Registered Users Posts: 21,039 ✭✭✭✭retro:electro


    She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)
    Charmeleon wrote: »
    Initial searches, sure. No problem. Volunteers were out for weeks. Kate was asked did she not feel they should be out there helping and none of the above reasons even occurred to her. She said they had ‘been working really hard’.

    “Working really hard....” yeah, to find her.

    http://madeleinemythsexposed.pbworks.com/w/page/39077768/Rebuttal%20of%20%22Fact%22%2018

    Again, your comments are inaccurate.


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    #1959
    Charmeleon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 437 ✭✭Charmeleon


    Absolutely. Serious stuff this searching business. Would be even harder with your remaining children around all day.

    16 days in:
    A Day to day life for the McCann's

    Our day starts around 6.30am with us all waking up around the same time. We have breakfast with Sean and Amelie and our close family/friends who are here with us. Then its clean nappies and clothes for Sean and Amelie followed by showers etc for the rest of us.



    Usually there’s some free time then for a few stories or games with the twins before heading out.



    9.00-9.15 We take Sean and Amelie to Kids’ Club. They really enjoy it and run in.

    They know the staff well and the staff are all excellent. Both love the domestic corner and Amelie particularly likes to look after ‘babies’. We use the kids club a bit like nursery at home but we think Sean and Amelie still think they are on holiday!



    9.30~12.15. We return to the apartments, usually for a series of meetings with our press officer, Mark Warner Reps, occasionally Consulate staff, lawyers and British Liaison officers. During this time we catch up with family and close friends, usually by telephone and discuss ideas how to keep Madeleine’s profile high especially throughout continental Europe.



    12.30 Time to pick up Sean and Amelie from Kids’ club then head back to apartment for lunch, which has usually been prepared by one of our family/friends group who have been tremendously supportive.



    13.30 –14.30 This is time to spend time playing with the twins either in the apartment or in the play area next to kids club.



    14.30-15.00 Usually we take the twins back to Kids’ Club although Sean has had the odd afternoon in the apartment as it’s a bit cooler and he’s not much of a sun worshipper! They have been taking part in many different activities including painting, singing, stories, swimming, trips to the beach and they have lots of toys to play with.



    15.00~17.00 We try to get some time together alone, going for a walk to talk things over or getting some exercise. This is often the time for quiet trips to the church for prayers.





    17.00-17.30 Meet kids for high tea with other mums and dads. They love pasta and have been doing really well with their vegetables although a few chips have been squeezed in.



    17.30-18.30. Games with kids at play area. Amelie loves trying to get in the baby pool!



    18.30-19.30 Bath and story time with the twins.



    20.00 We put the kids to bed.



    20.30-23.00 We try to sit down for a family meal, again usually cooked by one of the small family group out here with us. Chat about the day’s events and plan the next day



    23.30 bed and prayer for Madeleine that she will be returned to us safely

    ASAP.



    In addition to above we try to attend various church services

    during the week, and make multiple phone calls to family and

    friends. We try to watch the main news

    early morning and late evening but have had almost no time

    to read

    the newspapers or even look at the pictures!

    Kate is a keen runner and in the last few days has tried to include a run in the

    daily routine. Yesterday (Sat) at 7am we ran to the monument at the top of the steep cliff overlooking Praia de

    Luz. We reached it in 19 minutes.


  • Options
    #1960
    retro:electro
    Registered Users Posts: 21,039 ✭✭✭✭retro:electro


    She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)
    Once again for the cheap seats at the back.

    Effective searching
    The McCanns have been criticised for not participating more in the physical search for Madeleine. However, effective searching for a missing child is not all about physical searching. In particular, the parents of the missing child are the best people to sit down with police and provide information about the child and his/her last known movements.

    a) a professional police force would not allow parents to search. Apart from the emotional trauma, and the possibility of them being suspects / involved, searching is a methodical, painstaking process, which requires co-ordination. Members of the public are often recruited to help, but under the supervision of police officers experienced in searching techniques. If anything were to be found, they would not want everyone rushing about destroying evidence. The parents, in the early hours, would be best employed assisting the police and providing information etc.

    (b) the best people to conduct searches of premises are the police, because they have investigative powers. Individuals cannot demand the right to enter premises, and would therefore be severely hampered in any attempts.

    (c) In terms of longer term searching, who is the most effective? The individual who rushes here and there searching frantically? (the apparently preferred method of the antis) Or someone who co-ordinates and motivates a team of professional investigators, and concentrates on raising the money to keep the search going. (what it seems the McCanns are doing).

    And if they did take part in the search they would be accused of:
    - ignoring police instruction
    - trying to control the search
    -moving and planting the body here there and everywhere


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    #1961
    Plumbthedepths
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,653 ✭✭✭✭Plumbthedepths


    retro:electro wrote:
    Once again for the cheap seats at the back.


    Are you always this condescending or do you reserve it just for this thread?


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    #1962
    retro:electro
    Registered Users Posts: 21,039 ✭✭✭✭retro:electro


    She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)
    Plumbthedepths wrote: »
    Are you always this condescending or do you reserve it just for this thread?

    It’s a figure of speech for when you have to repeat yourself over and over. :)


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    #1963
    Charmeleon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 437 ✭✭Charmeleon


    Is there any indication they were told not to search by anyone? They were always keen to say when they weren’t allowed comment on something but have not to my knowledge ever said they were asked not to search, or address the volunteers searching or even thank the people searching.

    What would be the advantage of interfering with evidence during a search with dozens of other people around rather than just doing it quietly when they are alone?

    Spin it all you like but they have never searched and have been extremely dismissive of any reports of sightings, travel to meet celebs or PR events but not for sightings, hire the best lawyers money can buy but the cheapest, nastiest, incompetent and criminal investigators and apparently showed little interest in their own phone line tips.
    In all the dozens of media interviews in the years since, how many include a plea to the supposed abductor? Is there really more than one or two, from the early days?


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    #1964
    Plumbthedepths
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,653 ✭✭✭✭Plumbthedepths


    retro:electro wrote:
    It’s a metaphor for when you have to repeat yourself over and over. Try not to let it offend you too much.


    Not offended at all, just curious as to why you behave in the manner you do. Do you think it gives your posts more credibility?


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    #1965
    retro:electro
    Registered Users Posts: 21,039 ✭✭✭✭retro:electro


    She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)
    Plumbthedepths wrote: »
    Not offended at all, just curious as to why you behave in the manner you do. Do you think it gives your posts more credibility?

    The report button is there for a reason. Stop the derailing :)


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    #1966
    Plumbthedepths
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,653 ✭✭✭✭Plumbthedepths


    retro:electro wrote:
    The report button is there for a reason. Stop the derailing


    Stop the derailing? It was a question, are you trying to mod the thread aswell?


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    #1967
    SusieBlue
    Registered Users Posts: 8,029 ✭✭✭SusieBlue


    She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)
    Plumbthedepths wrote: »
    Stop the derailing? It was a question, are you trying to mod the thread aswell?

    You’re just provoking now, she already explained herself once, she doesn’t have to justify herself any further so if you still aren’t satisfied maybe PM a mod or something.

    This kind of rubbish is what will get the thread locked.


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    #1968
    Spanish Eyes
    Registered Users Posts: 15,925 ✭✭✭✭Spanish Eyes


    If only the mcs had spent as much money on searching for their daughter as they did suing anyone who had a thought other than theirs.... (and paid for by the donations to the fund too I'd imagine, Carter Ruck lawyers don't come cheap).

    Mad mystery really. And no questions asked in real life apart from on forums, for fear of the Mc suit toot sweet.


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    #1969
    Plumbthedepths
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,653 ✭✭✭✭Plumbthedepths


    SusieBlue wrote:
    You’re just provoking now, she already explained herself once, she doesn’t have to justify herself any further so if you still aren’t satisfied maybe PM a mod or something.


    As your friend suggests feel free to report. I find her manner condescending, however I don't require her or you to justify her behaviour. It can be seen for what it is.


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    #1970
    limnam
    Registered Users Posts: 9,169 ✭✭✭limnam


    dark crystal wrote: »
    You don't think Kate looked absolutely broken? Really?? Strange how people can see others so differently.



    It really is.


    It's strange how so many people even people who think the mc canns are innocent agree they come across as cold.



    Yet there's probably not a 1 single person who could claim the father of the missing girl in NZ is cold


    How odd is that?

    dark crystal wrote: »
    Lindy Chamberlain was tried in the court of public opinion because she didn't look 'pained' enough as well. A hard bitch etc. etc.

    Makes you think... all those amateur psychologists out there who can ascertain someone's guilt or innocence by their demeanour alone, having never walked in the shoes of a parent who's lost a child.




    Not sure what your point is


    people can look like hard cold and calculated and not be guilty?


    I didn't claim otherwise.


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    #1971
    limnam
    Registered Users Posts: 9,169 ✭✭✭limnam


    SusieBlue wrote: »

    This kind of rubbish is what will get the thread locked.


    If posting pictures of other men and making jokes how they look like Gerry doesnt get the thread locked


    I doubt anything else will


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    #1972
    limnam
    Registered Users Posts: 9,169 ✭✭✭limnam


    Plumbthedepths wrote: »
    Not offended at all, just curious as to why you behave in the manner you do. Do you think it gives your posts more credibility?


    When the vast majority of your posts are factually incorrect you need something to give them more credence.


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    #1973
    cnocbui
    Registered Users Posts: 20,012 ✭✭✭✭cnocbui


    She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)
    Charmeleon wrote: »
    Initial searches, sure. No problem. Volunteers were out for weeks. Kate was asked did she not feel they should be out there helping and none of the above reasons even occurred to her. She said they had ‘been working really hard’.

    The nanny witnessed Gerry looking under cars on the night she went missing. The McCann's were and are of the belief she was kidnapped. Were I in the same position as them I wouldn't be out searching either, I would be using the media, anyone of influence I knew, and such, to urge the investigating authorities to do as much as possible to pursue and investigate the kidnap scenario.

    Desperately walking the streets of PDL shouting 'Madeline', when you are imagining she's actually in something like Fritzl's hidden bunker, would look good for your media 'image' but you would know was wasting your time.

    I honestly think the 'McCann's did it' crowd are fundamentally incapable of mentally imagining themselves in the McCann's situation and interpreting their actions from that perspective. The McCann's actions all seem to me to be the result of people thinking with ruthless logic. They were searching using their heads, not their feet.


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    #1974
    Boom_Bap
    Moderators, Music Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,730 Mod ✭✭✭✭Boom_Bap


    She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)
    Plumbthedepths wrote: »
    As your friend suggests feel free to report. I find her manner condescending, however I don't require her or you to justify her behaviour. It can be seen for what it is.

    As you are new to this thread and have noted that you haven't read it, there have been plenty of warnings about getting personal on this thread , reporting posts, keeping on topic and being civil.

    Please bear that in mind when posting.

    limnam and retro:electro - You've both been thread banned in the past and are very close to another, this time with no return option. You know the score at this stage.


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    #1975
    iamwhoiam
    Registered Users Posts: 16,128 ✭✭✭✭iamwhoiam


    She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)
    cnocbui wrote: »
    The nanny witnessed Gerry looking under cars on the night she went missing. The McCann's were and are of the belief she was kidnapped. Were I in the same position as them I wouldn't be out searching either, I would be using the media, anyone of influence I knew, and such, to urge the investigating authorities to do as much as possible to pursue and investigate the kidnap scenario.

    t.

    ( I am not for a minute saying the Mc Canns did harm Madeleine as my posts so far have repeated ad nauseum but saying it again so I dont get jumped on )

    But I still think it strange that within minutes the Mc Canns would make up their mind that Madeleine was kidnapped and closed their minds to any other possibility . Now its only my opinion and I am only guessing that that closed mind is actually self protection so they can blame a third party and not look to their own glaring part in her disappearance . They look to another so they don't have to look inward and see that they in fact failed to protect her and it was a bad person who took her . If they had to think she wandered or got lost or was looking for them they could only have themselves to blame .

    Having said all that I too think its astonishing that they did not search until they dropped and I think my instinct and many other parents would be to tear up the beach and the surrounding scrub with my nails . I would be out looking for the very simple reason that my mind would tell me that no one else could do it right and I would have to find her .Wild horses would not keep me away from looking for my baby . As my husband would say " The mother tiger would appear and claw anyone who stopped me "


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    #1976
    retro:electro
    Registered Users Posts: 21,039 ✭✭✭✭retro:electro


    She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)
    They did search that night

    Kate's diary entry for 4th May, 2007 describes physical searching
    Quote:
    FRIDAY, MAY 4: No sleep, Gerry and I started looking through the streets around 06.00 as it was starting to get light. Nobody around. Why not? Desperate.

    Excerpts from Kate's book describing their physical searching (paperback version pages 95-113)
    David said 'Let's just check the apartment.' I'd done that....I ran out into the car park, flying from end to end, yelling desperately 'Madeleine, Madeleine!' It was so cold and windy....Fear was shearing through my body...

    Gerry, David, Russell and Matt split into pairs and dashed around the adjacent apartment blocks.

    Just after ten past ten, Gerry asked Matt to run to the Ocean Club's twenty-four-hour reception to get the staff to call the police... By this time the Mark Warner people had rounded up as many of their colleagues as they could, off-duty staff as well as those just finishing their shifts, rousing some of them from their beds. Close to ten-thirty they activated the company's 'missing child search protocol' and mobilised people to comb the complex and its environs., At 10.35pm the police had still not arrived, so Gerry asked Matt if he would go back to the twenty-four-hour reception and find out what was happening. John Hill, the Mark Warner resort manager came up to the veranda behind our apartment. I remember screaming at him to do something. 'Where are the police?' I yelled at him. He tried to reassure me they'd be with us soon, but I could tell that he, too was finding the waiting difficult. Minutes felt like hours...

    Gerry had been over to the Mini Club above the twenty-four-hour reception thinking that if Madeleine had been left somewhere, she might make her way back to any place that was familiar to her...

    Gerry meanwhile was running from pillar to post, urging me to remain in the apartment with the twins so that I'd be on hand if Madeleine was found and brought back there...

    On my insistence, Gerry and Dave went out again to look for some sign of Madeleine. They went up and down the beach in the dark, running, shouting...

    I walked briskly up and down Rua dr Agostinho da Silva, sometimes breaking into a jog, clinging to the hope that I'd spot something in the dark...

    I couldn't have allowed myself to entertain sleep. I felt Madeleine's terror, and I had to keep vigil with her. I needed to be doing something, but I didn't know where to put myself. I wandered restlessly in and out of the room and onto the balcony. At long last, dawn broke...

    As soon as it was light, Gerry and I returned to our search. We went up and down roads we'd never seen before having barely left the Oceab Club complex all week. We jumped over walls and taked through undergrowth. We looked in ditches and holes. All was quiet apart from the sound of barking dogs, which added to the eeriness of the atmosphere I remember opening a big dumpter-type bin and saying to myself please God don't let her be in here. The most striking and horrific thing about it all was that we were completely alone. Nobody else, it seemed was out looking for Madeleine. Just us, her parents.

    We must have been out for at least an hour before returning to David and Fiona's apartment...

    Police Files - Statement of Paolo Jorge Fernandes Neto, GNR Officer dated 27th May.
    Here Kate McCann's claim to have been out searching for Madeleine early on 4th May is confirmed by GNR Officer Paolo Jorge Fernandes Neto who was on duty from 1am-9am on 4th May 2007:-
    Quote:
    He remembers that he saw the McCann couple at about 07.00 alone in the street next to the site where they were stationed


  • Options
    #1977
    cnocbui
    Registered Users Posts: 20,012 ✭✭✭✭cnocbui


    She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)
    iamwhoiam wrote: »
    ( I am not for a minute saying the Mc Canns did harm Madeleine as my posts so far have repeated ad nauseum but saying it again so I dont get jumped on )

    But I still think it strange that within minutes the Mc Canns would make up their mind that Madeleine was kidnapped and closed their minds to any other possibility . Now its only my opinion and I am only guessing that that closed mind is actually self protection so they can blame a third party and not look to their own glaring part in her disappearance . They look to another so they don't have to look inward and see that they in fact failed to protect her and it was a bad person who took her . If they had to think she wandered or got lost or was looking for them they could only have themselves to blame .

    Having said all that I too think its astonishing that they did not search until they dropped and I think my instinct and many other parents would be to tear up the beach and the surrounding scrub with my nails . I would be out looking for the very simple reason that my mind would tell me that no one else could do it right and I would have to find her .Wild horses would not keep me away from looking for my baby . As my husband would say " The mother tiger would appear and claw anyone who stopped me "

    What are these 'other possibilities?'

    I can only think of two.

    Judging from Kate's diary, it sounds like they did as you say you would.


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    #1978
    Charmeleon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 437 ✭✭Charmeleon


    No one is saying they didn’t appear to search for at least a couple of hours that night. And as says, they must have been out for up to an hour once it got light. You have to commend their commitment to the task.

    I think I was out walking and driving around for 8 hours after our dog went missing, then at least an hour or two each day until the dog was located four days later.


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    #1979
    retro:electro
    Registered Users Posts: 21,039 ✭✭✭✭retro:electro


    She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)
    By that stage they had searched all obvious places and found nothing. That’s why you take it upon yourself to hire in the professionals whose job it is to painstakingly search in a meticulous manner, and whose advice would be to not assist them. I’m pretty sure you cannot hire these professional services for a missing dog.


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    #1980
    iamwhoiam
    Registered Users Posts: 16,128 ✭✭✭✭iamwhoiam


    She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)
    retro:electro wrote: »
    They did search that night

    Kate's diary entry for 4th May, 2007 describes physical searching
    Quote:
    FRIDAY, MAY 4: No sleep, Gerry and I started looking through the streets around 06.00 as it was starting to get light. Nobody around. Why not? Desperate.
    d

    I dont know how they even waited till 6am it was 8 hours later and they searched for one hour ? Those hours must have been painful agony and horrendous . But I do know that medical people can compartmentalise situations and go into logic mode so maybe it kicked in .
    I had a situation here one day in a house on my own and someone trying to kick in my back door . I went into emergency mode and did everything right in the right order ( lock door , ring Gardai , get my mobile and plan my escape ) People ask how I didnt panic and genuinely I don't know but think I went into " this is an emergency " mode and removed my mind from panic .
    Doctors and nurses can look at a human person who is horrifically injured and remove themselves from it and simply do what is needed right then and there

    We all try to get into their heads and its actually impossible as their whole parenting ways and their selfish attitude is alien to most of us .


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    #1981
    retro:electro
    Registered Users Posts: 21,039 ✭✭✭✭retro:electro


    She wandered out herself, something happened (car accident/paedo)
    Charmeleon wrote: »
    No one is saying they didn’t appear to search for at least a couple of hours that night.

    Really?
    Charmeleon wrote: »
    Spin it all you like but they have never searched


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