BusConnects Dublin - Bus Network Changes Discussion

Stephen15 · 03-01-2018 2:12am

cherryghost wrote: »

So 7 months on and we've seen what... livery changes and some timetable changes. No hint of results from the survey at least? No grasp of useful information?

The project is still in it's infancy. It's not meant to be implemented until 2019 or later.

Stevek101 · 07-02-2018 6:56pm

https://www.engineersireland.ie/groups/divisions/energy-environment/events/irish-public-transport-policy-and-the-busconnects.aspx

Starts at in 30 minutes. May reveal some more details.

devnull · 07-02-2018 7:53pm

Stevek101 wrote: »

https://www.engineersireland.ie/groups/divisions/energy-environment/events/irish-public-transport-policy-and-the-busconnects.aspx

Department for Transport Tourism and Sport Climate Change Unit up first, warm up act for the BusConnects presentation (her words not mine!)

Talked about the reasons for people traveling and what methods they take:74% car, 15% walk, 6% public transport, 2% cycle with train journeys far less than the European norm (unsurprising to me at least).

Also discussed the emissions caused by various forms of transport and the targets set by the DTTaS and the EU targets, both long, short and medium terms and trends in pollution in the state. Agriculture remains biggest emission creator.

Majority (54%) of emissions are caused by the private car, with bus, coach taxi at 3.3% (combined) and 1.1% on rail and fuel tourism is approx 10% (not totally sure how it's calculated as the cast broke up)

devnull · 07-02-2018 8:01pm

Stevek101 wrote: »

https://www.engineersireland.ie/groups/divisions/energy-environment/events/irish-public-transport-policy-and-the-busconnects.aspx

Starts at in 30 minutes. May reveal some more details.

NTA up now - head of public transport investment

Low density is a problem, bus forms backbone of transport system, Bus Connects is to transform the whole bus system to become more competitive, punctual and convenient when compared to private car.

Next Generation bus corridors
- BRT merged into Next Generation bus corridors aspect
- Journey times currently increasing due to sharing with lots of other traffic.
- Investing in infrastructure, should help with times.
- Multi Modal corridors
- investment in cycling
- Segregation from other modes (restrictions to cars)
- Anticipates planning issues

Redesign of bus network
- Work ongoing at the moment still
- Core network consultations in April 2018 for bus corridors
- Final consultation June 2018 for rest of the network.
- Engineering tenders to be issued.

New Ticketing System
- Single fare system considered but most likely will move to a tag on and tag off arrangement
- Better use of doors and a third door potentially.
- Moving to cashless
- Use of Debit and Credit cards
- Proposal to remove financial penalties for changing modes

New livery
- Still being looked at and workng few peoples views
- Final decision due to be released in a few weeks.

Bus Stops Shelters
- New style of bus pole with full info proposed to be rolled out this year.
- Will include departure times for that particular stop not terminus
- Better bus shelters

Bus based park and ride.
- Intergrated into bus network review.

Low Emissions vehicles
- Moving people onto transport will help with this
- Decision made on fleet technology end Q1 2018 (one or two technologies)
- First vehicles to be delivered by end of 2018
- By 2023 500 vehicles will go to low emission vehicles
- By 2030 full fleet will be low emission vehicles

devnull · 07-02-2018 8:17pm

Orbital Bus Corridor Proposals (For new routes)

devnull · 07-02-2018 8:29pm

Questions being asked now from the floor.

Spending and time-frame for project
Vast majority of spending on bus corridors - €5m per km and €70m a year on bus replacement, can't do all corridors at the same time, so can't give timeframe but there will be property costs and a CPO Process

Swiftway and BRT concept current status
Confirmed that it's been scrapped in it's previous form and merged into the BusConnects network redesign using standard vehicles not articulated vehicles (like FTR in England, Glider in Belfast etc).

Potential of Retrofitting existing vehicles with hybrid technology
All buses since 2016 are Euro 6, seeking views of Dublin Bus and other stakeholders on this, DTTaS believe that replacing is better than retrofitting.

Relation to bus stop construction and space and current issues
Touched on people in Cork moaning when bus stops were moved a little bit, not as simple as it sounds to resolve.

Using bike schemes to link radial/orbital bus routes
Something that will be looked into.

A gentleman involved with the LUAS in the past also raised about not a proper north and south corridor for public transport in Dublin, whilst saying that LUAS Cross City has hit this as well and why the lines were not joined in the past.

Gentleman from NTA has now left the conference.

thomasj · 07-02-2018 9:01pm

Hey has anyone got a screenshot of the radial routes? I thought I saw broombridge mentioned as part of the ongar UCD route.

xper · 08-02-2018 12:18am

devnull wrote: »

New Orbital Bus Route Proposals
Map

I've seen this before. It is short on detail of course but it worries me. It seems very sparse.

I had expected 5-6 orbital rings rather than 2-3 and surely they should all extend to the coast. I wonder are these truly corridors with possibly multiple routes on any given section and possibly extending and fanning out beyond the corridors' ends? The current 17 and 18 routes are poor comparisons to proper orbital routes but they serve areas that are not covered by these corridors at all - that will cause upset if it means they are chopped (though the plan may be that they or parts of them become local routes).

On the plus side, I do like that they are not all separated rings and do intertwine at transport hubs allowing good interchange opportunities.

hmmm · 08-02-2018 12:26am

xper wrote: »

On the plus side, I do like that they are not all separated rings and do intertwine at transport hubs allowing good interchange opportunities.

I suggest the lower one should go to Cherrywood & the new town planned there - commuters can hop onto the LUAS if they want to go to Sandyford. Similarly, I'm not sure why there is a big spur off to Blanchardstown when the outer lane could again collect - perhaps connecting to a new interchange at Liffey Valley and a future Lucan LUAS. I like it however.

Dyr · 08-02-2018 12:29am

devnull wrote: »

New Orbital Bus Route Proposals

Don't think with that's new

Also note the part of Dublin that's completely reliant on buses for public transport gets stiffed again.

bk · 08-02-2018 5:52pm

devnull wrote: »

New Ticketing System
- Single fare system considered but most likely will move to a tag on and tag off arrangement

Perhaps Amsterdam style per km charging with tag-on/off. Eliminates the whining about lost fares and unfairness and works well with other forms of transport.

Pay for distance travelled between a and b, no matter if bus/luas/dart.

devnull wrote: »

- Better use of doors and a third door potentially.

WOOHOO

devnull wrote: »

- Moving to cashless
- Use of Debit and Credit cards
- Proposal to remove financial penalties for changing modes

Pretty much everything we want

:D

devnull wrote: »

Bus Stops Shelters
- New style of bus pole with full info proposed to be rolled out this year.
- Will include departure times for that particular stop not terminus
- Better bus shelters

I assume the same as the ones in Cork. They are very nice.

devnull wrote: »

Swiftway and BRT concept current status
Confirmed that it's been scrapped in it's previous form and merged into the BusConnects network redesign using standard vehicles not articulated vehicles (like FTR in England, Glider in Belfast etc).

Boooo..... :mad:

Maybe we will get Berlin style, tri-door, dual stairs, tri-axles instead so.

I really hope they will still go ahead with elements like off bus ticketing and dedicated luas style stops and zero driver interaction. Otherwise it would be very disappointing.

As for that map of routes you posted. I don't know why the inner route doesn't continue down Griffith Avenue as far as the Malahide road. Fine wide road, little in the way of traffic problems, would bring in lots more homes and connect with another corridor. Actually now that I think about it, I'm not sure where a bus could turn around at Swords Road, would cause mayhem! While their is a handy turn about at the end of Griffith Avenue just before the Malahide road.

Stephen15 · 08-02-2018 6:27pm

devnull wrote: »

Swiftway and BRT concept current status
Confirmed that it's been scrapped in it's previous form and merged into the BusConnects network redesign using standard vehicles not articulated vehicles (like FTR in England, Glider in Belfast etc).

Do you mean that they will use standard double or single deckers or standard bendy buses like Citaros?

devnull · 08-02-2018 6:30pm

Stephen15 wrote: »

Do you mean that they will use standard double or single deckers or standard bendy buses like Citaros?

There is no such thing as Swiftway anymore.

So everything that is related to that specifically you can now forget about because the routes involved in that particular proposal will form part of the bus network review and part of the bus network like any other bus routes.

devnull · 08-02-2018 6:33pm

bk wrote: »

As for that map of routes you posted. I don't know why the inner route doesn't continue down Griffith Avenue as far as the Malahide road. Fine wide road, little in the way of traffic problems, would bring in lots more homes and connect with another corridor. Actually now that I think about it, I'm not sure where a bus could turn around at Swords Road, would cause mayhem! While their is a handy turn about at the end of Griffith Avenue just before the Malahide road.

That isn't a map of routes - it's a map of the corridors that could include multiple routes along those lines from what I understood from the presentation and the details that were spoke about and everything else I have heard.

I also got the feeling this was what was proposed in addition to existing routes rather than as a replacement of existing orbital routes but it wasn't explicitly said.

Stephen15 · 08-02-2018 6:46pm

devnull wrote: »

There is no such thing as Swiftway anymore.

So everything that is related to that specifically you can now forget about because the routes involved in that particular proposal will form part of the bus network review and part of the bus network like any other bus routes.

So is it just the Swiftway branding that's gone or has the BRT concept of dedicated bus ways with dedicated stops been done away with too? Basically my question will the whole BRT concept still be implemented minus the Swiftway branding and be incorporated into the regular DB network with the same dedicated stops and lanes.

devnull · 08-02-2018 6:52pm

Stephen15 wrote: »

So is it just the Swiftway branding that's gone or has the BRT concept of dedicated bus ways with dedicated stops been done away with too? Basically my question will the whole BRT concept still be implemented minus the Swiftway branding and be incorporated into the regular DB network with the same dedicated stops and lanes.

There is no Swiftway, either in name or in practice anymore.

The routes that were proposed for Swiftway will be included in the new bus network, as standard bus routes, along with all other bus routes rather than being a dedicated scheme and the corridors part of Swiftway be included in the (now revised) next generation bus corridor project that was already being proposed for other key bus corridors.

I realise this is not the perfect answer but I can only tell you what was said in the conference.

XPS_Zero · 08-02-2018 11:38pm

devnull wrote: »

There is no Swiftway, either in name or in practice anymore.

The routes that were proposed for Swiftway will be included in the new bus network, as standard bus routes, along with all other bus routes rather than being a dedicated scheme and the corridors part of Swiftway be included in the (now revised) next generation bus corridor project that was already being proposed for other key bus corridors.

I realise this is not the perfect answer but I can only tell you what was said in the conference.

I think he's asking - and I'm wondering - sorry if this is already obvious -
(1) are the idea of bendybus/luas style busses gone? and
(2) the luas style stops gone?

bk · 09-02-2018 11:56am

XPS_Zero wrote: »

I think he's asking - and I'm wondering - sorry if this is already obvious -
(1) are the idea of bendybus/luas style busses gone? and
(2) the luas style stops gone?

Plus in addition to the above concepts like:

- More then 2 doors.
- All doors open at every stop
- Entry/entrance through ALL doors
- Zero driver interaction, off bus ticketing.

We don't necessarily need bendy buses (though they are many advantages with them), but you can still do an enhanced bus service with Berlin style double deckers. But if we aren't getting the above features, then it would be a massive rollback and very disappointing.

BonnieSituation · 09-02-2018 12:02pm

Imagine getting Berlin sized buses!!!

devnull · 09-02-2018 12:35pm

XPS_Zero wrote: »

I think he's asking - and I'm wondering - sorry if this is already obvious -
(1) are the idea of bendybus/luas style busses gone? and
(2) the luas style stops gone?

1) I would assume so - everything that I heard suggested this.

2) There are proposals as part of the Next Generation Bus Corridor to segregate some traffic from roads, but there always was this existing outside the now dead Swiftway project.

There are proposals for new format and laid out bus stop information that include stop specific times and new shelters still and a uniform layout, Nothing else on bus stops was elaborated on.

bk · 09-02-2018 2:24pm

BonnieSituation wrote: »

Imagine getting Berlin sized buses!!!

Ah, I thought they were the same length as DB's Tri-axle VT class, but they seem to be a bit longer. VT class 12.2M versus Berlin DD class 13.7m. Not a massive difference.

Though note that Berlin also has shorter 12m double deckers with the same features (three doors, two stairs).

Overall though this seems to be very disappointing news :mad:

punisher5112 · 09-02-2018 6:13pm

bk wrote: »

Ah, I thought they were the same length as DB's Tri-axle VT class, but they seem to be a bit longer. VT class 12.2M versus Berlin DD class 13.7m. Not a massive difference.

Though note that Berlin also has shorter 12m double deckers with the same features (three doors, two stairs).

Overall though this seems to be very disappointing news :mad:

Great having these big buses but one thing always fails to be planned right....

Road space.

Look at all the bus stops, roads, corners etc etc.

They are for some reason the last few years taking away road width and space and extending out kerbing and so on.

Many roads cant take a vt never mind the standard sg.

Westmoreland st onto O'Connell bridge has two straight lanes but they brought the path out to make a sharp tight bend and now as luas is running traffic poles along the its side just before the bridge means buses are squeezed and don't get me started on the college green squeeze.

bk · 09-02-2018 7:07pm

punisher5112 wrote: »

Great having these big buses but one thing always fails to be planned right....

Road space.

Look at all the bus stops, roads, corners etc etc.

Well that was the thing with Switfway, they had extremely detailed plans for the route on road widening, footpaths, new bus stops, etc. I went over the details of the plans myself along the full route of the Swords BRT. It was very detailed.

So sad to hear it go and now I worry for what will replace it.

punisher5112 wrote: »

Westmoreland st onto O'Connell bridge has two straight lanes but they brought the path out to make a sharp tight bend and now as luas is running traffic poles along the its side just before the bridge means buses are squeezed and don't get me started on the college green squeeze.

The widening of the footpath on O'Connell Bridge is very welcome for pedestrians. It was way to narrow and people were often dangerously force out onto the road.

Of course this is now the reality. The city is growing fast and nothing is scared anymore, people are going to have to get use to the idea of change. Cars banned, taxis banned, footpaths widened, bus redirected through different routes. This is just the start, you will see much more of it.

MGWR · 09-02-2018 7:18pm

bk wrote: »

The widening of the footpath on O'Connell Bridge is very welcome for pedestrians. It was way to narrow and people were often dangerously force out onto the road.

Of course this is now the reality. The city is growing fast and nothing is scared (sacred) anymore, people are going to have to get use to the idea of change. Cars banned, taxis banned, footpaths widened, bus redirected through different routes. This is just the start, you will see much more of it

Until the economic detriment kicks in. The more congested the city gets, the more commerce slows down and the more businesses will move out to areas where business can actually get done and people can actually get to/from them in a sane amount of time. Traffic jams cost cities billions each year, and what is Dublin doing but creating more traffic bottlenecks. And of course, it'll cost far more to put the Luas underground to convert it into a metro than to have actually done it in the first place (never mind have built it as DART to begin with). By the time all this is over, people will be clamouring for Grafton Street to be de-pedestrianised, never mind North Earl and Henry Streets.

If there are so many pedestrians that even the very-generously-wide O'Connell Bridge footpaths are too narrow, something is seriously, seriously wrong. Forcing people off public transport and onto the footpaths is going to have a negative effect. I do not buy the notion of "getting used to the idea of change" when it's forced upon the people from the top.

Stephen15 · 09-02-2018 7:28pm

bk wrote: »

Well that was the thing with Switfway, they had extremely detailed plans for the route on road widening, footpaths, new bus stops, etc. I went over the details of the plans myself along the full route of the Swords BRT. It was very detailed.

So sad to hear it go and now I worry for what will replace it.

I would support BRT in theory and practice I like the idea but I think it should be branded the same as regular buses and use regular bendy buses such as Citaros rather than FTR style vehicles.

I'm not a fan of the whole Swiftway concept it looked very like the FTR which was a disaster in the mockups and it gave me the impression that it was being used as a cheap fix as opposed to MN and further Luas based projects.

bk · 09-02-2018 7:42pm

MGWR wrote: »

Until the economic detriment kicks in. The more congested the city gets, the more commerce slows down and the more businesses will move out to areas where business can actually get done and people can actually get to/from them in a sane amount of time. Traffic jams cost cities billions each year, and what is Dublin doing but creating more traffic bottlenecks. And of course, it'll cost far more to put the Luas underground to convert it into a metro than to have actually done it in the first place (never mind have built it as DART to begin with). By the time all this is over, people will be clamouring for Grafton Street to be de-pedestrianised, never mind North Earl and Henry Streets.

If there are so many pedestrians that even the very-generously-wide O'Connell Bridge footpaths are too narrow, something is seriously, seriously wrong. Forcing people off public transport and onto the footpaths is going to have a negative effect.

O'Connell Bridge was insanely overcrowded and nowhere near wide enough for the pedestrians. By comparison there was a massive amount of road space that was comparatively very empty and underused. Their is now a much better balance between pedestrian space and road/tram space on the bridge.

As far your comments on de-pedestrianisation of Henry St, etc. LOL not a chance, quiet the opposite. I mean what is happening is literally the opposite of what you are saying. After all the whole reason for these problems is that more and more people are trying to squeeze into the city center for work, shopping and entertainment. Business is up, up, UP all over the city and this is the cause of all these congestion problems.

Stephen15 wrote: »

I would support BRT in theory and practice I like the idea but I think it should be branded the same as regular buses and use regular bendy buses such as Citaros rather than FTR style vehicles.

I'm not sure if either of those really make a difference to anyone. The main points of BRT were:

- Dedicated Luas style stops
- Off bus ticketing like Luas
- Zero driver interaction
- All doors open at all stops, enrty/exit through any door.

What it was branded as and exactly what the bus looked like were the least important of details.

MGWR · 09-02-2018 7:47pm

bk wrote: »

O'Connell Bridge was insanely overcrowded and nowhere near wide enough for the pedestrians. By comparison there was a massive amount of road space that was comparatively very empty and underused. Their (sic) is now a much better balance between pedestrian space and road/tram space on the bridge.

As far your comments on de-pedestrianisation of Henry St, etc. LOL not a chance, quiet the opposite. I mean what is happening is literally the opposite of what you are saying. After all the whole reason for these problems is that more and more people are trying to squeeze into the city center for work, shopping and entertainment. Business is up, up, UP all over the city and this is the cause of all these congestion problems.

O'Connell Bridge underused by road traffic?? If that is true, then the flight of commerce from Dublin is already underway.

The only businesses that can be doing well in the city have to be the "service economy" ones. And no, not everyone who is on foot is going to work. This is utterly unsustainable, and not good for the revenues of a capital city. Business is not up; government spending is, though.

Stephen15 · 09-02-2018 8:17pm

bk wrote: »

I'm not sure if either of those really make a difference to anyone. The main points of BRT were:

- Dedicated Luas style stops
- Off bus ticketing like Luas
- Zero driver interaction
- All doors open at all stops, enrty/exit through any door.

What it was branded as and exactly what the bus looked like were the least important of details.

Yes they do. Just look at the FTR to see how such a concept can turn into a disaster. The FTR buses were a disaster because the ticket machines were crap, the buses weren't properly integrated with non-FTR services and the buses themselves were expensive to run as they were hard to get parts for and had zero resale value.

Having a separately branded bus service is quite frankly ridiculous in the age of integrated transport. It gives users the impression that the service is inefficient and is competing amongst itself. I know things are better now since the NTA have come in and Leap cards have been introduced but many people are still of the impression that DB, IE and the Luas are all competing with each other. Integration is the way to go which includes giving all buses the same branding.

bebeman · 10-02-2018 12:55am

devnull wrote: »

Orbital Bus Corridor Proposals (For new routes)

Not uncommon for the 75 to take 150 minutes to get from DL to Tallaght, how long from DL to Baldoyle?

bk · 10-02-2018 12:29pm

MGWR wrote: »

O'Connell Bridge underused by road traffic?? If that is true, then the flight of commerce from Dublin is already underway.

Clearly you don't live in Dublin so if you think these things!

Previously O'Connell Bridge had 5 lanes going one direction and 4 lanes going the other way. The issue was that O'Connell St only has two lanes either side. So all those lanes were never really used as it was highly constrained either side.

Any time I crossed O'Connell Bridge I could clearly see two things:
1) The footpaths were dangerously overloaded.
2) The traffic on the bridge was relatively spread out and uncongested.

Hell there was so much unused road space on the bridge, they put bus stops on it! Madness

The current configuration is overall a much more sensible use of space.

MGWR wrote: »

The only businesses that can be doing well in the city have to be the "service economy" ones. And no, not everyone who is on foot is going to work. This is utterly unsustainable, and not good for the revenues of a capital city. Business is not up; government spending is, though.

Errr.. You do know Service Economy is the most valuable type of economy, right?!

I can assure you that business is way up in the city. It is why all those people are their after all!

Stephen15 wrote: »

Yes they do. Just look at the FTR to see how such a concept can turn into a disaster. The FTR buses were a disaster because the ticket machines were crap, the buses weren't properly integrated with non-FTR services and the buses themselves were expensive to run as they were hard to get parts for and had zero resale value.

Having a separately branded bus service is quite frankly ridiculous in the age of integrated transport. It gives users the impression that the service is inefficient and is competing amongst itself. I know things are better now since the NTA have come in and Leap cards have been introduced but many people are still of the impression that DB, IE and the Luas are all competing with each other. Integration is the way to go which includes giving all buses the same branding.

You seem to be caught up with FTR, which is simply one very specific example of BRT, that didn't work out. BRT systems are run all over the world and Europe and most are highly successful.

As for ticketing etc. The plan seemed to use the exact same ticketing machines, stops, etc. as Luas. I don't think you would seriously argue that Luas is a failure!

Stephen15 · 10-02-2018 12:55pm

bk wrote: »

You seem to be caught up with FTR, which is simply one very specific example of BRT, that didn't work out. BRT systems are run all over the world and Europe and most are highly successful.

As for ticketing etc. The plan seemed to use the exact same ticketing machines, stops, etc. as Luas. I don't think you would seriously argue that Luas is a failure!

Yes but the thing is that Swiftway seemed to have some things in common with the FTR rather with other BRT systems.

Don't get me wrong I'm all in for BRT and better bus priority but I know it was early stages but I thought that Swiftway had quite a lot in common with FTR especially in some of the the mockups. I also thought it was being used as a cheap fix over building MN the Swords route seemed to be doing that to an extent.

The other flaw I believe was branding Swiftway as different to a normal bus you may think it is a small thing but to me it gives off the impression of a less integrated public transport mode. I have to say I'm not a fan of loads of different buses in different livery Iook at Dublin in the late 90s buses in Green livery, buses in Navy and cream livery, buses in City swift livery and buses in City imp livery. Most European have all buses branded the same as it gives the passenger the impression of quality integrated transport system.

antoinolachtnai · 10-02-2018 3:52pm

The problem with the ‘swiftway’ concept was contained in the following question:

If you have a way to improve ticketing, boarding operations, regularity and vehicle speed, why would you apply it only to a small proportion of the buses and routes
on the corridor? Why not apply the improvements to as many buses and routes as possible?

The normal answer to this question is to have a corridor improvement plan. You make concerted improvements on each corridor and try to drive up patronage at the same time.

That is a good idea for Dublin but it won’t realky solve our problem.

We have the issue that the bus system isn’t just ‘broken’ on one corridor. The whole thing is basically broken.

Part of the fix is to change the ticket system to allow easy changes. This has to be done on a ‘big bang’ cross city basis.

The system of routes needs to be similarly changed so that routes are complementary to rather than competing with the luas. (The swiftway routes were very intertwined with luas. The swords swiftway needed to cross luas three or four times on each journey for example. It would have ended up slower than the 41.)

Again, this route revision is a ‘big bang’ change, not limited to any one corridor.

These ‘big bang’ changes will be very difficult. But there is really no point in wasting energy on thr swiftway civil engineeribg projects if the more fundamental problems of the system aren’t dealt with.

MGWR · 10-02-2018 6:06pm

bk wrote: »

Clearly you don't live in Dublin so if you think these things!

Previously O'Connell Bridge had 5 lanes going one direction and 4 lanes going the other way. The issue was that O'Connell St only has two lanes either side. So all those lanes were never really used as it was highly constrained either side.

Any time I crossed O'Connell Bridge I could clearly see two things:
The footpaths were dangerously overloaded.

The traffic on the bridge was relatively spread out and uncongested.

ell there was so much unused road space on the bridge, they put bus stops on it! Madness

The current configuration is overall a much more sensible use of space

If the footpaths are "dangerously overloaded", that means a dearth of proper public transport to get the pedestrians off the walkways. Of course, reversing the goals of the Wide Street Commission means less room for any kind of mechanised transport (particularly buses), and a reversion to pre-industrial conditions on the street. Madness indeed.

bk wrote: »

Errr.. You do know Service Economy is the most valuable type of economy, right?!

No; it's the least valuable. That is, next to civil service. Therefore, the least valuable in the private sector. Like government, it needs constant subsidy to keep afloat; profit margins are very, very tight. Manufacturing of goods with value and agriculture are the most valuable.

bk wrote: »

I can assure you that business is way up in the city. It is why all those people are their (sic) after all!

If business was "way up", then people would be able to get around the city more efficiently and there would be no need for widening footpaths. They would be inside business facilities more than being out on the streets.

bk wrote: »

You seem to be caught up with FTR, which is simply one very specific example of BRT, that didn't work out. BRT systems are run all over the world and Europe and most are highly successful.

As for ticketing etc. The plan seemed to use the exact same ticketing machines, stops, etc. as Luas. I don't think you would seriously argue that Luas is a failure!

Actually, I do argue that Luas is a failure. Merely because lots of people use it does not make something a success. On top of that, it suffers from serious lack of capacity. It is also too slow, especially for a modern type of transport, in spite of its misnomer. There is a lot being covered up with respect to Luas; something that politicians claim over and over operates "without subsidy" (really? let's see the total costs) ought to be fully in the private sector, and system expansion ought to be funded by fare revenue alone.

And no, no BRT is "successful" either. All of them are government-funded, operated (if not directly, then via crony companies) and regulated. The infrastructure cannot ever pay for itself, and restricting numbers to operating costs of vehicles (with a lot of even those costs being left off the numbers) distorts the true picture.

Again, congestion costs cities billions each year. That includes pedestrian congestion, which is caused by making vehicular travel within a city nigh impossible.

donvito99 · 10-02-2018 7:33pm

MGWR wrote: »

If business was "way up", then people would be able to get around the city more efficiently and there would be no need for widening footpaths. They would be inside business facilities more than being out on the streets.

I stopped reading at this point.

punisher5112 · 10-02-2018 7:53pm

Bk as someone who has to drive very large vehicles it is one thing to have adequate space for both but I see major issues with the planners and engineering teams that are carrying out these upgrade works if that's what you could call them.

I'm looking from a pedestrian side, cyclists side and driver of extremely large vehicles.

Great having safe place and wide paths fully agree this is good but we have to remember Dublin is very small and has so many streets and side streets and twists and turns with no one road the same as the next.

Take away parking on orbital and busy routes to improve cycling and path infrastructure.

Large vehicles need a lot more road space then a car or van.
These large vehicles in a lot of circumstances have to encroach on footpaths and across centre lines and cross over.

It all well and good widening the footpath and putting in cycle lanes taking away road space but then this leaves no breathing space(room for any error or movement and so on)

Some examples... Bird avenue was narrowed, whyatville road/link road, killiney roundabout (numerous times and still worse then when it was before some bright spark decided to squander huge amounts of tax payer money)

College green is a shambles and only across from Grafton Street the footpath which was widened on the corner couldn't accommodate enough space for buses when a luas would be passing at the same time( this was mentioned and yet fell on deaf ears untill eventually a bus side plus windows were badly damaged and smashed)

Look at how the road layout is for Westmoreland st to O'Connell bridge is which should be able to take 2 buses side by side but it's shockingly tight and since they placed them 3 black Flexi poles at the Luas track just past the pedestrian crossing. This makes it difficult for vehicles trying to cross onto the bridge to turn right onto Eden quay.

Remember one thing the further you put out a kerb it's the 1st place people stand and tend to even step out. This imo is a bad idea as if the road space is removed one is just making it more of a risk of a person getting knocked down as vehicles will have less space and be closer to the kerb(path) then ever before.

At the moment it seams Dublin city are following Dun Laoghaire rathdown council ideas which isnt a good idea from all the changes I've seen.

I'm not talking about cutting meters off what they have done but there should be some standards and at least knock 2 feet off the amount of space they have been taking away.

RobbingBandit · 10-02-2018 8:02pm

Independent quality assessment needs to be carried out on preexisting routes and services already poorly being run before new initiatives or even route or service extensions or changes take place.

Cookie_Monster · 10-02-2018 11:26pm

MGWR wrote: »

If the footpaths are "dangerously overloaded", that means a dearth of proper public transport to get the pedestrians off the walkways.

all those poor, downtrodden serfs being forced to use their feet are they?
Maybe a large number of people simply see it as the most pleasant, fast, efficient and useful method of transporting themselves around the CC?

Stephen15 · 10-02-2018 11:35pm

punisher5112 wrote: »

Bk as someone who has to drive very large vehicles it is one thing to have adequate space for both but I see major issues with the planners and engineering teams that are carrying out these upgrade works if that's what you could call them.

I'm looking from a pedestrian side, cyclists side and driver of extremely large vehicles.

Great having safe place and wide paths fully agree this is good but we have to remember Dublin is very small and has so many streets and side streets and twists and turns with no one road the same as the next.

Take away parking on orbital and busy routes to improve cycling and path infrastructure.

Large vehicles need a lot more road space then a car or van.
These large vehicles in a lot of circumstances have to encroach on footpaths and across centre lines and cross over.

It all well and good widening the footpath and putting in cycle lanes taking away road space but then this leaves no breathing space(room for any error or movement and so on)

Some examples... Bird avenue was narrowed, whyatville road/link road, killiney roundabout (numerous times and still worse then when it was before some bright spark decided to squander huge amounts of tax payer money)

College green is a shambles and only across from Grafton Street the footpath which was widened on the corner couldn't accommodate enough space for buses when a luas would be passing at the same time( this was mentioned and yet fell on deaf ears untill eventually a bus side plus windows were badly damaged and smashed)

Look at how the road layout is for Westmoreland st to O'Connell bridge is which should be able to take 2 buses side by side but it's shockingly tight and since they placed them 3 black Flexi poles at the Luas track just past the pedestrian crossing. This makes it difficult for vehicles trying to cross onto the bridge to turn right onto Eden quay.

Remember one thing the further you put out a kerb it's the 1st place people stand and tend to even step out. This imo is a bad idea as if the road space is removed one is just making it more of a risk of a person getting knocked down as vehicles will have less space and be closer to the kerb(path) then ever before.

At the moment it seams Dublin city are following Dun Laoghaire rathdown council ideas which isnt a good idea from all the changes I've seen.

I'm not talking about cutting meters off what they have done but there should be some standards and at least knock 2 feet off the amount of space they have been taking away.

Correct me if I'm wrong but O'Connell Bridge would of a similar width to O'Connell Street which is free of private cars. If you banned private cars off O'Connell Bridge there would be plenty of room to widen the pedestrian area and still leave plenty of room for buses.

punisher5112 · 11-02-2018 12:00pm

Stephen15 wrote: »

Correct me if I'm wrong but O'Connell Bridge would of a similar width to O'Connell Street which is free of private cars. If you banned private cars off O'Connell Bridge there would be plenty of room to widen the pedestrian area and still leave plenty of room for buses.

It's more so an issue at the pinch point as vehicles have to go from straight to a curve and the lanes are very tight.

dashcamdanny · 11-02-2018 1:23pm

I will eat my hat if any of this ever happens. Other than re-branding and a few small things like a map on a bus stop .

AlekSmart · 11-02-2018 1:47pm

dashcamdanny wrote: »

I will eat my hat if any of this ever happens. Other than re-branding and a few small things like a map on a bus stop .

Mmmm...yum yum....

https://itinerariesoftaste.sanpellegrino.com/how-we-were/carmen-miranda

What makes the Busconnects project decidely different from the many and varied grand-plans of the past,is the putting in place of FUNDING in advance of the announcement.

Most of the previous schemes tended to be launched in a blaze of publicity,only to slip off the radar after a few months and hit the buffers when the initial £9/19s/11d had been spent,and no more remained until the next financial year.

This time around,there is €750,000,000 in funding already voted on,in this years Budget specifically for Busconnects....that is unheard of,in Bus Service Planning terms in Dublin.

http://oireachtasdebates.oireachtas.ie/debates%20authoring/debateswebpack.nsf/takes/dail2017120600033?opendocument

The BusConnects programme, recently announced by the NTA, is a transformative investment package that will finance new and expanded bus routes and greatly improve bus access through and around the capital and I secured funding of over €750 million in the budget to progress the programme. My top priority over the next few years is to increase investment in public transport rapidly while also increasing public transport services for the greater Dublin area and around the country.

There are also other aspects to the bigger picture,whch have not been to the fore in previous plans,such as Greenhouse Gas emissions and specific Air Quality requirements for EU Capital Cities,all of which will cost Ireland far more than €750 mil if left unaddressed.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/ireland-faces-fines-in-two-years-if-climate-targets-missed-varadkar-1.3345235

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/environment/ireland-faces-fines-of-almost-2m-over-eu-court-ruling-1.3368526

https://www.stopclimatechaos.ie/news/2017/03/08/minister-brings-action-plan-on-climate-pollution-to-cabinet/

Adding these environmental issues into the mix,then factoring in the possibility of significant ongoing financial penalties,brings us to a situation whereby not taking action is no longer an option.

The greater issue is rapidly coming down to Irelands lack of previous action in the face of Worldwide ongoing changes,particularly in the area of Public Transports ability to achieve rapid improvements in Emissions Outputs when used to directly lead the change project,as in other European cities......now where is that Fruit Bowl ?

punisher5112 · 11-02-2018 1:54pm

dashcamdanny wrote: »

I will eat my hat if any of this ever happens. Other than re-branding and a few small things like a map on a bus stop .

You do know we will all hold you to your word.....

Phil.x · 12-02-2018 9:10am

Are the plans for brt now scrapped.
If so any links.

cgcsb · 12-02-2018 11:13am

MGWR wrote: »

. Manufacturing of goods with value and agriculture are the most valuable.

Manufacturing and agriculture, in Dublin City Centre? Manufacturing left City Centres across the industrialised world in the 19th century. Indeed Manufacturing is mostly gone to Asia. The Irish economy is service based.

dfx- · 12-02-2018 2:17pm

dashcamdanny wrote: »

I will eat my hat if any of this ever happens. Other than re-branding and a few small things like a map on a bus stop .

Worse would be they get through some of it before ditching it a quarter or halfway through, coming across difficulty and going for the next bright shiny plan.

But bus shelters and bus stops, doors...key issues.

AlekSmart · 12-02-2018 2:45pm

dfx- wrote: »

Worse would be they get through some of it before ditching it a quarter or halfway through, coming across difficulty and going for the next bright shiny plan.

But bus shelters and bus stops, doors...key issues.

I onder if the mods would consider making the main Jarret Walker blog a sticky,as it does give a significant insight into his thinking on the broader topic.

http://humantransit.org/

I's not at all suggesting that this guy represents a guru or deity in Public Transport terms,BUT I am impressed that he is confident enough in his work to lead with his name,rather than the heretofore norm of a Deloitte & Touche style,Big Corporate mega consultancy report.

http://humantransit.org/2017/06/dublin-imagine-a-better-bus-network-design.html

As a result, we think Dublin may be missing opportunities to encourage patronage within the greater City Centre – especially for spontaneous trips and tourism — because while buses are everywhere, it is simply too hard to figure out how to use them. As consultants we can attest to this, because our work requires learning bus systems very quickly.

Finally, the City Centre has so many buses running through it that buses are frequently obstructing each other.

Ain't that the truth !!

dfx- · 12-02-2018 3:22pm

The only major problem with the network is the artificial routes created by Network Direct. They need to be split back into their constituent parts with a respectable frequency.

The 16 needs to be helped out with another regular city service from the Airport.

This redrawing and connected spine thing on his blog is what you'd fear would happen. The network is not hard to figure out.

Dyr · 12-02-2018 4:09pm

dfx- wrote: »

Worse would be they get through some of it before ditching it a quarter or halfway through, coming across difficulty and going for the next bright shiny plan.

But bus shelters and bus stops, doors...key issues.

My fear would be they put in a transfer based system and it falls apart once the spotlight is off the project because the usual players will just go back to doing things their own way.

LeinsterDub · 12-02-2018 6:29pm

dfx- wrote: »

The only major problem with the network is the artificial routes created by Network Direct. They need to be split back into their constituent parts with a respectable frequency.

The 16 needs to be helped out with another regular city service from the Airport.

This redrawing and connected spine thing on his blog is what you'd fear would happen. The network is not hard to figure out.

Frequency is being killed by having so many routes meandering around every housing estate and by having roads were you have dozens of buses running down them but people have to wait for their own particular bus

dfx- · 12-02-2018 8:21pm

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Frequency is being killed by having so many routes meandering around every housing estate and by having roads were you have dozens of buses running down them but people have to wait for their own particular bus

Frequency is being killed by the cut in resources from Network Direct. The 51B/C was every 15-20 minutes all day and night, clockwork. The 13 is 20-30 minutes and up to 45-50 minutes for the last bus and is not reliable.

The routes untouched by Network Direct (though it was threatened to join them up) but that also wander around housing estates - 27B and 79/A for example, there are no chronic problems.

BusConnects Dublin - Bus Network Changes Discussion

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