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Anti-male movement
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The Leaving Cert results broken down by gender are up at examinations.ie: https://www.examinations.ie/statistics/
I think it is interesting to look at the top grade (Grade 1=A1) at honours level as, even with hard work, many people would struggle to get such a grade. Some sort of natural ability or a lot of interest plays a part in a lot of cases.
Languages:
Irish: girls: 799 boys: 346 ratio: 1:0.43
French: girls: 616 (66%) boys: 314 ratio: 1:0.51
German: girls: 196 boys: 110 ratio: 1:0.56
Spanish: girls: 277 boys: 134 ratio: 1:0.48
English: girls: 675 boys: 441 ratio: 1:0.65
Mathematics: girls: 279 boys: 675 ratio: 1: 2.42
If it was just down to girls working harder, this is not the type of pattern you would expect.
With these subjects particularly English, Irish and Maths, there is not much scope to not do the subjects. With other subjects, biased groups of individuals could take or not take the subject.
It's almost as if there are stark biological differences between men and women.0 -
The_Conductor wrote: »Honestly- sometimes some women go out of their way to try and make you as miserable as possible- just because you're male. I've had doors slammed in my face while I'm carrying heavy things- and been sneered at- with a comment such as- 'lets see you multitask your way out of that' etc.
Thats just uncivil and mean behaviour- and if a guy did this to a girl- he'd end up in HR, with his suitability to continue with the business in question- and told he was lucky he wasn't reported to the Gardaí on assault charges. Instead- its a group of 20 something girls- who get a laugh out of taunting some of the older guys they work with- safe in the knowledge that they are the right gender..........
You also have the polar opposite- I had a certain former Táiniste open a door and help with a security code for me- when she could see I was overburdened (and wary that I going to be accidentally hit with an elbow etc).
Good manners are in short supply- and I don't know if picking on guys is some sort of an insecurity- its not acceptable behaviour though.
Re the girls above- I did report them to my manager- who was female- and was told to 'Man up'........ Like what?
Damned if you, damned if you don't. Can't win. Heads you win, tails, I loose.......
What kind of company do you work for if you don't mind me asking (size/industry)?
I couldn't imagine in a million years that something like that would happen at my work place never mind a manager seriously uttering the phrase "man up".0 -
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What makes the results more interesting is that this pattern occurs year in and year out.iptba wrote:The Leaving Cert results broken down by gender are up at examinations.ie: https://www.examinations.ie/statistics/
I think it is interesting to look at the top grade (Grade 1=A1) at honours level as, even with hard work, many people would struggle to get such a grade. Some sort of natural ability or a lot of interest plays a part in a lot of cases.
Languages:
Irish: girls: 799 boys: 346 ratio: 1:0.43
French: girls: 616 (66%) boys: 314 ratio: 1:0.51
German: girls: 196 boys: 110 ratio: 1:0.56
Spanish: girls: 277 boys: 134 ratio: 1:0.48
English: girls: 675 boys: 441 ratio: 1:0.65
Mathematics: girls: 279 boys: 675 ratio: 1: 2.42
If it was just down to girls working harder, this is not the type of pattern you would expect.
With these subjects particularly English, Irish and Maths, there is not much scope to not do the subjects. With other subjects, biased groups of individuals could take or not take the subject.
It's almost as if there are stark biological differences between men and women.
However what the media has tended to report on the numbers getting honours. The gender differences there are smaller but part of the reason for this is fewer males do honours Irish and fewer females do honours Maths. However I think the percentages are best looked at using the total number who take the subject, not just those taking the honours subject.
Also, especially now with the bonus for honours maths, few people who could easily get the top grade (or even the top two or three grades) won't take the subject at honours level.0 -
What makes the results more interesting is that this pattern occurs year in and year out.
However what the media has tended to report on the numbers getting honours. The gender differences there are smaller but part of the reason for this is fewer males to honours Irish and fewer females to honours Maths. However I think the percentages are best looked at using the total number to take the subject, not just those taking the honours subject.
Also, especially now with the bonus for honours maths, few people who could easily get the top grade (or even the top two or three grades) won't take the subject at honours level.
I don't think looking at the results as a whole tells you much because most of the people going into university and hence jobs like engineering, IT etc. are getting the higher grades anyway. No point looking at the number of people who got D's and C's in maths as they're unlikely to do maths later on.0 -
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It's almost as if there are stark biological differences between men and women.
Then we must force them with quotas to behave in a politically correct manner and not in a way their genes tell them!
I wonder when will quotas come in for the steel industry, mining, street sweeping, car mechanics, etc? These jobs are almost all men. There should be hard quotas, if not enough women candidates apply, they should be diverted from other fields, in the end nothing but a complete even 50/50 ratio in all fields is acceptable, after all women want to be truly equal and not just cherry pick the cream of jobs from the top and leave men to do the dirty work?
If people don't want to behave in a politically correct manner, they must be forced.0 -
+1dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »Then we must force them with quotas to behave in a politically correct manner and not in a way their genes tell them!
I wonder when will quotas come in for the steel industry, mining, street sweeping, car mechanics, etc? These jobs are almost all men. There should be hard quotas, if not enough women candidates apply, they should be diverted from other fields, in the end nothing but a complete even 50/50 ratio in all fields is acceptable, after all women want to be truly equal and not just cherry pick the cream of jobs from the top and leave men to do the dirty work?
If people don't want to behave in a politically correct manner, they must be forced.
Nicely put!!!
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What kind of company do you work for if you don't mind me asking (size/industry)?
I couldn't imagine in a million years that something like that would happen at my work place never mind a manager seriously uttering the phrase "man up".
Public sector- the Tánaiste was a bit of a give-away........
The public sector has taken equality to a whole new level- with special training sessions for all the female staff on how to help one another and how to succeed in the organisation- with an aim to massively increase the number of women in upper management positions. No commensurate push to try and recruit more males at entry level posts- indeed, the testing is rigged to try and favour women (another equality measure- despite the fact that over 78% of all new staff at entry level in the public sector, are female..........).
Some people are very fair- and judge their colleagues purely on the basis of their ability and what they contribute- others- and complicate with government policy- look at gender first and foremost.
Another example- there are some training courses (high level courses- such as MBAs/MBSs in the Smurfit Business School)- with public sector bursaries for female applicants- but not male applicants. It is actually this explicit these days- being male is a significant impediment to going for promotion on a level pegging with other candidates in the public sector. All other things being equal- the woman is virtually guaranteed to get any promotion- over a similarly qualified male colleague.0 -
That is so wrong - it's a disgrace!!!The_Conductor wrote: »Public sector- the Tánaiste was a bit of a give-away........
The public sector has taken equality to a whole new level- with special training sessions for all the female staff on how to help one another and how to succeed in the organisation- with an aim to massively increase the number of women in upper management positions. No commensurate push to try and recruit more males at entry level posts- indeed, the testing is rigged to try and favour women (another equality measure- despite the fact that over 78% of all new staff at entry level in the public sector, are female..........).
Some people are very fair- and judge their colleagues purely on the basis of their ability and what they contribute- others- and complicate with government policy- look at gender first and foremost.
Another example- there are some training courses (high level courses- such as MBAs/MBSs in the Smurfit Business School)- with public sector bursaries for female applicants- but not male applicants. It is actually this explicit these days- being male is a significant impediment to going for promotion on a level pegging with other candidates in the public sector. All other things being equal- the woman is virtually guaranteed to get any promotion- over a similarly qualified male colleague.
Now for any females looking at this - let's define the word 'Equality':
Equality (n.) = the state of being equal, especially in status, rights, or opportunities0 -
Sorry lady but the statistics yesterday showed that while girls outperformed boys in more areas, STEM subjects were the exception
At higher level:
A higher total percentage of girls got a H1/H2 grade (>80%) this year in the following subjects:
Physics
Construction
Engineering
Technology
Biology
Agricultural Science
Design and Communications Graphics
Physics with Chemistry
Technology
A higher total percentage of boys got a H1/H2 grade in the following:
Maths
Applied Maths
Chemistry
And those were the only three subjects in the entire LC that boys outperformed girls when comparing the percentages that achieved either a H1 or H2 grade.0 -
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Ok if males are so inferior, what gender is dominant in art and design outright, not just the LC? Include top drawer cookery and fashion design (even if I dislike the current fashion)! Anyway, the LC in my mind is really just a memorising exercise for the most part and has little to do with real intelligence.rainbowtrout wrote: »At higher level:
A higher total percentage of girls got a H1/H2 grade (>80%) this year in the following subjects:
Physics
Construction
Engineering
Technology
Biology
Agricultural Science
Design and Communications Graphics
Physics with Chemistry
Technology
A higher total percentage of boys got a H1/H2 grade in the following:
Maths
Applied Maths
Chemistry
And those were the only three subjects in the entire LC that boys outperformed girls when comparing the percentages that achieved either a H1 or H2 grade.0 -
Middle Man wrote: »Ok if males are so inferior, what gender is dominant in art and design outright, not just the LC? Include top drawer cookery and fashion design (even if I dislike the current fashion)! Anyway, the LC in my mind is really just a memorising exercise for the most part and has little to do with real intelligence.
That's what you took from my post?! I was responding to an earlier post that stated that boys outperformed girls all over the shop in the LC this year, when that's clearly not the case. I never stated anywhere that males are inferior.
And I'm looking at this as a female teacher. I teach Ag Science, Physics and Maths in a co-ed school. All STEM subjects. Girls regularly come out with the top grade in my classes, even in the lopsided physics classes where there's never more than 2 girls.
What I do see in front of me year in, year out are girls who are able to knuckle down and work when they need to, and lads of the same age who overall are a little less mature at the age of 17. And in a lot of cases an extra year would do them the world of good. That evens out when they get to college.0 -
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Middle Man wrote: »That is so wrong - it's a disgrace!!!
Now for any females looking at this - let's define the word 'Equality':
Equality (n.) = the state of being equal, especially in status, rights, or opportunities
This is the norm in the public sector- males tend to be over represented in upper management- and remarkably under-represented at lower ranks- because of policies which have been pushed for decades.
The marriage ban was only over-turned in the 1980s- prior to that- any woman who got married was given her lumpsum and shown the door- which gave male staff an unfair tenure/experience advantage- when posts came up. A counter to this- was the manner in which entrance exams were set- to try and reduce/remove any male bias (so if you were good at maths- as the theory went- you wouldn't have a benefit over candidates who struggled at maths- the theory being males had an unfair advantage at maths). So competitions for the public sector had a straight pass/fail for maths- and were (and continue to be) marked on verbal reasoning and work skills tests- wholly regardless of how remarkable a candidate might be at maths.
For various reasons- males went for promotion in the public sector a lot more than their female colleagues- a lot of it was probably women were expected to take time off time mind children- and the simple fact- up to last September- Paternity leave didn't exist in Ireland- which a lot of people will find remarkable. So- males had unbroken service, hadn't taken all manner of time out to mind children etc- whereas women had- therefore- a disproportionate number of males rose through the ranks- compared to their females colleagues- based purely on an equal status- any given man had more tenure and probably more experience- than any given woman.
In addition to this- you had the recruitment policies- which meant in some cases over 80% of incoming staff were female- however, this 80% was not reflected in a commensurate manner at upper management- and a plan was put in place- to make the 80% of new start females- represented at upper management- by a commensurate 80% of females- equality or recognition of experience/service/tenure/qualifications- be damned.
So- now- you have a distinct disadvantage- as a male- to the extent- that at some middle grades- where there may be a similar number of males and females- the males have just stopped bothering to apply for promotions, training etc- its not worth their while- why bother- they're the wrong gender.
Training units etc- by accident or otherwise- reinforce this- holding rather extravagant sessions for the likes of International Women's Day- but neglecting to hold commensurate recognition of International Men's Day- and when they do actually hold sessions- such as cancer awareness seminars- the Marie Keating Foundation- is brought in to discuss male cancers............
Lots of males just keep their heads down- its a day job, they're never going to get a promotion or recognition of what they actually do- and focus on activities elsewhere- such as sports or other outside activities.
Equality- should mean any given male and any given female- are compared on a equal basis with one another- but nope, not anymore, they're not............
People shouldn't be belittled for their gender, whether they're married or not, their age- or any of a long list of other reasons. However- the 'gender' one has become a bit of an animal farm in the public sector- where 'all animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others...........' Yup. George Orwell certainly had an uncanny grasp of how things were going.0 -
Sorry if I misinterpreted what you were saying, but I wasn't really trying to get at you, but rather the common notion that the girls are always better than the boys just because they do well at school. Although I did quite well myself, I'm of the opinion that the formal education system I went through was rather questionable in that it was very much a taught to the test model with memorisation the key to success - however, my experience of such was in the 1990's, so things may have changed since then. However, I do think all levels of education in Ireland could do with a serious overhaul as there's nowadays so much information available through the internet.rainbowtrout wrote: »That's what you took from my post?! I was responding to an earlier post that stated that boys outperformed girls all over the shop in the LC this year, when that's clearly not the case. I never stated anywhere that males are inferior.
And I'm looking at this as a female teacher. I teach Ag Science, Physics and Maths in a co-ed school. All STEM subjects. Girls regularly come out with the top grade in my classes, even in the lopsided physics classes where there's never more than 2 girls.
What I do see in front of me year in, year out are girls who are able to knuckle down and work when they need to, and lads of the same age who overall are a little less mature at the age of 17. And in a lot of cases an extra year would do them the world of good. That evens out when they get to college.0 -
+1The_Conductor wrote: »This is the norm in the public sector- males tend to be over represented in upper management- and remarkably under-represented at lower ranks- because of policies which have been pushed for decades.
The marriage ban was only over-turned in the 1980s- prior to that- any woman who got married was given her lumpsum and shown the door- which gave male staff an unfair tenure/experience advantage- when posts came up. A counter to this- was the manner in which entrance exams were set- to try and reduce/remove any male bias (so if you were good at maths- as the theory went- you wouldn't have a benefit over candidates who struggled at maths- the theory being males had an unfair advantage at maths). So competitions for the public sector had a straight pass/fail for maths- and were (and continue to be) marked on verbal reasoning and work skills tests- wholly regardless of how remarkable a candidate might be at maths.
For various reasons- males went for promotion in the public sector a lot more than their female colleagues- a lot of it was probably women were expected to take time off time mind children- and the simple fact- up to last September- Paternity leave didn't exist in Ireland- which a lot of people will find remarkable. So- males had unbroken service, hadn't taken all manner of time out to mind children etc- whereas women had- therefore- a disproportionate number of males rose through the ranks- compared to their females colleagues- based purely on an equal status- any given man had more tenure and probably more experience- than any given woman.
In addition to this- you had the recruitment policies- which meant in some cases over 80% of incoming staff were female- however, this 80% was not reflected in a commensurate manner at upper management- and a plan was put in place- to make the 80% of new start females- represented at upper management- by a commensurate 80% of females- equality or recognition of experience/service/tenure/qualifications- be damned.
So- now- you have a distinct disadvantage- as a male- to the extent- that at some middle grades- where there may be a similar number of males and females- the males have just stopped bothering to apply for promotions, training etc- its not worth their while- why bother- they're the wrong gender.
Training units etc- by accident or otherwise- reinforce this- holding rather extravagant sessions for the likes of International Women's Day- but neglecting to hold commensurate recognition of International Men's Day- and when they do actually hold sessions- such as cancer awareness seminars- the Marie Keating Foundation- is brought in to discuss male cancers............
Lots of males just keep their heads down- its a day job, they're never going to get a promotion or recognition of what they actually do- and focus on activities elsewhere- such as sports or other outside activities.
Equality- should mean any given male and any given female- are compared on a equal basis with one another- but nope, not anymore, they're not............
People shouldn't be belittled for their gender, whether they're married or not, their age- or any of a long list of other reasons. However- the 'gender' one has become a bit of an animal farm in the public sector- where 'all animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others...........' Yup. George Orwell certainly had an uncanny grasp of how things were going.
Misandristic Gender Discrimination!0 -
Care to give more details? I read on a discussion board somewhere that they stopped counting the numerical/mathematical assessment used for some entrants, at some stage. People still had to sit the test but the results were not part of the assessment.The_Conductor wrote: »Public sector- the Tánaiste was a bit of a give-away........
The public sector has taken equality to a whole new level- with special training sessions for all the female staff on how to help one another and how to succeed in the organisation- with an aim to massively increase the number of women in upper management positions. No commensurate push to try and recruit more males at entry level posts- indeed, the testing is rigged to try and favour women (another equality measure- despite the fact that over 78% of all new staff at entry level in the public sector, are female..........).
Edited to add: you can ignore that, I see you have discussed this.0 -
johnnyskeleton wrote: »Generally I dont think there is any specific anti male sentiment in the wider population. Sure, sometimes people say rude things but thats probably jusy cos they are rude or annoyed or something.
However, I think there are visible signs of an anti male, or specifically anti masculinity trend in the NGO sectors. Things like the White Ribbon campaign, which is a campaign stated to be to stop mens violence against women, as opposed to all domestic violence, and when you pare back their organisational structure you find that despite having a few male spokespeople and saying that it is a mens movement for men by men, in reality women are in charge of the organisation behind it and they are puahing a very specific anti man/ anti male agenda.
More recently, I saw the lineup for Pieta house's talks during Eletric Picnic. Youd think, even with all the scandals about mental health charities notwothstanding, that there would be nothing objectionable in this. However, if you read the first two topics:
http://www.alustforlife.com/soundeffect/electric-picnic-full-line-up
The womens talk is about how to be a better woman. But the mans talk is about how to be less masculine because of patriachy. They cant even organise a mens mental health programme without telling men to be ashamed of their gender.
If I felt suicidal because of the pressures of being a man - working to support a family, or lonliness, or health concerns etc imagine if I rang Pieta house and instead of giving me impartial counselling they gave me both barrells od feminist indoctrination, "its ok to be a weak emasculated man, embrace your inferiority to women" etc then it would make me worse not better.
I wonder do these people genuinely believe that telling men not to be men is good for mental health or do they genuinely just not give a f*** about men? Something tells me that no one is that stupid, especially not the doctoral level qualified psychaitrist who started it!
Genuine question, why do you think it's so negative?
here's the blurb:Masculinity and Mental Health
Host: Tony Griffin
Panel: Colm Keegan (Poet, Writer), Jack McGrath (Ireland and Leinster Rugby Star), Diarmuid Lyng (Former Wexford Hurler Captain, Broadcaster), Michael Harding (Author, Playwright)
What are the issues closest to the hearts, bodies and minds of men in Ireland today?
Why are these issues kept under lock + key? What would it feel like to talk openly about the things that we feel uncomfortable talking about?
We live in an extreme patriarchal society that is increasingly pushing people to their limits, how is this affecting our men? Masculinity is being graded according to macho hardness, sexual prowess, status, money and power, how does this affect mental health? What is needed to create a society in which our men can express their true masculine power in a healthy way ? What are the rites of passage and initiations required to support men grow from childhood into adulthood in the best way possible? Who are the male role models in the world today? Why are so many men hurting right now and what are we going to do about it?0 -
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Triceratops Ballet wrote: »Genuine question, why do you think it's so negative?
here's the blurb:
"our men can express their true masculine power in a healthy way". IE the way we think "true masculine" means. Usually all sharing and caring and passive. More like women(as they tend to see women too). Just another set of criteria to judge men and box men in and have men fall short IMHO. For me it would be better to have a wider criteria of acceptance of what masculinity is and yep that includes "macho hardness, sexual prowess, status, money and power". A helluva lot of the modern world you see around you was built and continues to be built by men exhibiting many of those traits. So long as a man isn't being a tool to others and society at large then play ball I say.Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.
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"our men can express their true masculine power in a healthy way". IE the way we think "true masculine" means. Usually all sharing and caring and passive. More like women(as they tend to see women too). Just another set of criteria to judge men and box men in and have men fall short IMHO. For me it would be better to have a wider criteria of acceptance of what masculinity is and yep that includes "macho hardness, sexual prowess, status, money and power". A helluva lot of the modern world you see around you was built and continues to be built by men exhibiting many of those traits. So long as a man isn't being a tool to others and society at large then play ball I say.
I get that, there has to be a way to structure things like this to include men who fit those traits and those who don't as those who don't. I think the important conversation is broadening the definition of masculinity, so that those who don't naturally fit in with traditional ideas (macho hardness, sexual prowess, status, money and power) don't crumble under the pressure of those social expectations.
To me it seems the target market for this talk is men who don't ascribe to masculinity in that way and need reassurance that they aren't "broken" or "less manly" in some way. I agree that the wording is probably a bit alienating to some but maybe it's not talking to them. Maybe those who are comfortable in their masculinity (whatever it means to them) don't need a talk like that?0 -
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Well for a start when they lead with "We live in an extreme patriarchal society" my BS detector goes into the red. That they think this gives an indication of what line of BS they're peddling out of the gate. We most certainly do not live in an extreme patriarchal society, not unless you're living in Una Mullaly's head. If anything it's increasingly "matriarchal"*. Certainly in what is considered "correct" masculinity. And again if anything it's this set of changes that are affecting some men who don't know what their "place" is in this changing world.
Never mind this fashion for acknowledging and talking about men's mental health. It is everywhere. For the subject that dare not speak its name(it is claimed), it's very hard to escape every second taking head, well.. talking about it. Often ad nauseam. We've never had so many therapists and therapies and avenues to both, yet the mental illness "epidemic" is apparently increasing year by year. In no other medical condition does this happen. In every other case when more therapies and therapists are applied to a condition the "cures" start to decrease and/or preventative measures lower the rates. Something else is going on here. What that something is is anyone's guess. It could well be that many of the therapies/therapists aren't very effective, or more concerning, contra effective and making some things worse. Never mind that studies suggest that men and women broadly differ in what mental illnesses they present with and which therapies are more effective, or less. Mindfullness one such therapy that seems to benefit women much more, but can make men worse.
*Though I would contend that Ireland has always been more a matriarchal society under the surface of the patriarchal. We hear much gnashing of teeth against the horrors of the past like Magdalene laundries. Who ran them?Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.
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Well for a start when they lead with "We live in an extreme patriarchal society" my BS detector goes into the red. That they think this gives an indication of what line of BS they're peddling out of the gate. We most certainly do not live in an extreme patriarchal society, not unless you're living in Una Mullaly's head. If anything it's increasingly "matriarchal"*. Certainly in what is considered "correct" masculinity. And again if anything it's this set of changes that are affecting some men who don't know what their "place" is in this changing world.
Never mind this fashion for acknowledging and talking about men's mental health. It is everywhere. For the subject that dare not speak its name(it is claimed), it's very hard to escape every second taking head, well.. talking about it. Often ad nauseam. We've never had so many therapists and therapies and avenues to both, yet the mental illness "epidemic" is apparently increasing year by year. In no other medical condition does this happen. In every other case when more therapies and therapists are applied to a condition the "cures" start to decrease and/or preventative measures lower the rates. Something else is going on here. What that something is is anyone's guess. It could well be that many of the therapies/therapists aren't very effective, or more concerning, contra effective and making some things worse. Never mind that studies suggest that men and women broadly differ in what mental illnesses they present with and which therapies are more effective, or less. Mindfullness one such therapy that seems to benefit women much more, but can make men worse.
*Though I would contend that Ireland has always been more a matriarchal society under the surface of the patriarchal. We hear much gnashing of teeth against the horrors of the past like Magdalene laundries. Who ran them?
Well said Wibbs, it's not just on a pyscological that men and women differ but medical trials are now required to be carried out to determine how medicines effect men and women cells differently.
There are 2 main issues that I see with mental health issues for men in this country. First, the funding levels are disgraceful IMO. Just try get help for someone who is on the verge and see how it goes. Hospitals don't want to know and the few good charities out there just don't have the resources.
Second, this nonsense of "toxic masculinity" needs to be put too bed forever. We've heard endless arguments that it's masculinity causing the issues and we need feminism to sort all the ill's. Anyone coming out with that drivel needs to be shot directly into the sun."Well, yeah, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man"
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My impression from reading surveys and the odd piece of research is some of these are some of the factors relating to what women find attractive in a heterosexual partner.We live in an extreme patriarchal society that is increasingly pushing people to their limits, how is this affecting our men? Masculinity is being graded according to macho hardness, sexual prowess, status, money and power, how does this affect mental health?0 -
In terms of funding for public mental health services, surely that's across the board, I understand its as bad for men and women (from my own limited experience) so that hardly indicates an anti male sentiment.
As far as the anti "toxic masculinity" stuff, whats the answer? If you believe the narrative being put forth is incorrect, what's the solution? It's easy to deride mullally and o'neill etc for this kind of talk as they have no first hand experience of societal expectations of traditional masculinity, but they're not the only ones talking about it, this message is being delivered to the public by men too, the facilitator of that talk at EP is a man, this is the kind of stuff Niall Breslin is always on about aswell as yer man from rubberbandits. If that's the narrative out there and it's incorrect and even damaging then how does it get solved?0 -
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Sure T, but that's really no indication of the validity of the position put forward. They're just following a particular political worldview. As I said any man/woman/dog on the street that with a straight face claims that Ireland is "an extreme patriarchal society" is only singing from one hymn sheet, a received one and a near farcical one with it.Triceratops Ballet wrote: »It's easy to deride mullally and o'neill etc for this kind of talk as they have no first hand experience of societal expectations of traditional masculinity, but they're not the only ones talking about it, this message is being delivered to the public by men too, the facilitator of that talk at EP is a man, this is the kind of stuff Niall Breslin is always on about aswell as yer man from rubberbandits.
Go back in time when the BS that women were the poor shadow of a man in reason and society was in full force. Many, if not the majority of women at that time supported that. The suffragettes got just as much flak from their fellow women as from men. They were very much the minority(and were looking for actual parity, even when it would go against them. These women actively looked for things like equality in capital crimes where a woman may be hanged like men were for the same crime. A parity that seems to have been lost in translation since). Hell even today women converts to the more radical ends of Islam outnumber male converts four to one. They appear to most western liberals as turkeys voting for Christmas, but vote many do.
Good question T. I'd say for a start, let's drop the imported from the US gender war and gender division ballsology for a start. And throw out the social sciences guff that is anything but social and certainly not science. Look at this with actual objectivity. Look at this as a human issue, with acknowledged general differences between us when they exist. Lose the "toxic masculinity" BS. Nobody of reason would dare to push the notion of "toxic femininity", but men are apparently fair game.If that's the narrative out there and it's incorrect and even damaging then how does it get solved?
I've often said that modern "feminism" can be reduced to this; women are always victims and men are always to blame. View damn near any "feminist" rhetoric through that prism and it'll come up as a positive result. This includes "men's issues". The "patriarchy" is to blame. It's still men's fault. The poor dears. And only by becoming quasi women with dicks banging drums in a forest to excise their "toxic masculinity" can they be released from this "oppression". Eh get up the yard. I say this as a major purveyor of bullshit, but even I have a bullshit threshold, beyond which I cry "eh... no... just no".Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.
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Triceratops Ballet wrote: »In terms of funding for public mental health services, surely that's across the board, I understand its as bad for men and women (from my own limited experience) so that hardly indicates an anti male sentiment.
As far as the anti "toxic masculinity" stuff, whats the answer? If you believe the narrative being put forth is incorrect, what's the solution? It's easy to deride mullally and o'neill etc for this kind of talk as they have no first hand experience of societal expectations of traditional masculinity, but they're not the only ones talking about it, this message is being delivered to the public by men too, the facilitator of that talk at EP is a man, this is the kind of stuff Niall Breslin is always on about aswell as yer man from rubberbandits. If that's the narrative out there and it's incorrect and even damaging then how does it get solved?
Agreed, mental health funding for either sex is disgraceful. There is still a stigma attached to it that just isn't prevalent with other illnesses.
The first thing that needs to happen is that the narrative is stopped. It does more harm than good. We could also start a more pragmatic approach to education as well. Start up trade schools, like they have in many other European countries. At present we have young men dropping out of the educational system at alarming rates with no alternatives in place.
We also need to stop listening to shameless self promoters like Bressie and those tools with plastic bags on their heads."Well, yeah, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man"
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Anti-male may be putting it too strongly but there is certainly a double standard in the media. For example, the Irish Times permits a female writer to contribute articles which would find a male equivalent pleading for his job or queuing for the social welfare.
I find those women who label themselves feminists today to be infuriating and intolerant of criticism/disagreement and shut down any form of debate from men. Dismissing them as 'misogynists', which appears to be a very popular (and often misused) word in the last couple of years with feminists.
The double standard/hypocrisy is everywhere and how dare any man question it. Must totally mess with their heads when the more rational woman out there questions them.0 -
Anti-male may be putting it too strongly but there is certainly a double standard in the media. For example, the Irish Times permits a female writer to contribute articles which would find a male equivalent pleading for his job or queuing for the social welfare.
I find those women who label themselves feminists today to be infuriating and intolerant of criticism/disagreement and shut down any form of debate from men. Dismissing them as 'misogynists', which appears to be a very popular (and often misused) word in the last couple of years with feminists.
The double standard/hypocrisy is everywhere and how dare any man question it. Must totally mess with their heads when the more rational woman out there questions them.
So would you prefer to see more anti-women articles? Ones containing the anti-women/feminist sentiments that often appear in threads like these? Or would you prefer those anti-male articles to be censored?0 -
El_Duderino 09 wrote: »Do would you prefer to see more anti-women articles. Ones containing the anti-women/feminist sentiments that often appear in threads like these? Or would you prefer those anti-male articles to be censored?
First of all, being anti feminism (of today) does not equate to anti-female. That is one of the criticisms of feminism.
Nobody of a rational mind would want to see similar articles in the Irish Times about women.0 -
El_Duderino 09 wrote: »Do would you prefer to see more anti-women articles. Ones containing the anti-women/feminist sentiments that often appear in threads like these? Or would you prefer those anti-male articles to be censored?
First of all, being anti feminism (of today) does not equate to anti-female. That is one of the criticisms of feminism.
Nobody of a rational mind would want to see similar articles in the Irish Times about women.
That didn't really answer the questions though.
Would you want more anti feminism of today, "toxic feminism" if you like, in the media? Or would you prefer to sensor the articles you don't like about men?0 -
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Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,099 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Join Date:Posts: 59028
Contrary angles to feminism yes, anti woman no. You writing "anti-women/feminist" as if it's the same thing is part of the problem. Can't criticise feminism because of course that's anti woman. Which is a patent nonsense.Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.
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