Anti-male movement

silverharp · 20-08-2017 11:54am

LionelNashe wrote: »

A problem I see with that is that it might encourage good business studies teachers to become bad maths teachers.

I'd assume they control with with grades and subject choice. In the UK you could teach Bus Org without having an A level in Maths but them they they couldnt switch. In ireland you can become a bus org teacher yet have only done pass maths for the LC. A problem in Ireland is that a lot of maths teachers didnt do the subject in college. Supposedly a lot of physics teachers in Ireland double up as math teachers so its not perfect. Pay Maths teachers ~80-90K on the basis its what they studied it in college and got at least an A or B in H Maths in their own LC... boom standards rise!

silverharp · 20-08-2017 12:03pm

jsms88 wrote: »

I'm talking about high achievers though... not the lad who hops into an arts degree to take advantage of no college fees because he has nothing else to do. Yes, a civil engineering student will have a higher IQ than him but not necessarily a commerce or finance student.

the way I'd put it is that imo one could do a decent points grab in the LC based on your subject choices, Get an A-B in subjects like Bus org, Geog, Home Ec. doesnt require a high IQ just some interest and diligence . on the other hand if you got your points from Maths, Applied Maths and Physic that student most likely has a higher IQ even if they got the same or lower points than the other student.

jsms88 · 20-08-2017 12:17pm

silverharp wrote: »

the way I'd put it is that imo one could do a decent points grab in the LC based on your subject choices, Get an A-B in subjects like Bus org, Geog, Home Ec. doesnt require a high IQ just some interest and diligence . on the other hand if you got your points from Maths, Applied Maths and Physic that student most likely has a higher IQ even if they got the same or lower points than the other student.

It would require a certain mathematical ability, yes. I'm not sure I'd call it IQ. There's more to IQ than arithmetic and trigonometry. Would that person necessarily be equally adept at learning languages? Or interpreting poetry? I don't think so.

The_Conductor · 20-08-2017 12:18pm

jsms88 wrote: »

You're making an awful lot of assumptions about what we, as a society, value in a person, most of which are not realistic or even acceptable. The first being that someone working in science/maths is more valuable than those in other disciplines. Of course, science/maths is important but who is anyone to go around telling someone else that becoming a historian or an accountant or a translator is effectively wasting their working life or not making a worthwhile contribution to society.

I posted a link to an article penned by a self confessed feminist in the Indo- which was lamenting the manner in which more boys were getting the higher paying jobs in the high-tech and stem industries- because they were doing the subjects necessary to enter these sectors- whereas girls were being coralled into the 'softer subjects' (which is the term the Indo- which I have zero regard for- insists on using).

There are a larger number of higher paying jobs in maths and science disciplines- or disciplines that *need* very good groundings in maths and science- than there are higher paying jobs for someone with an impeccable grounding in geography. We had this discussion in work last week- and one colleague pointed out to some high profile jobs in Met Eireann- as an example of high paying jobs for people with good geography qualifications- until another colleague found an advertisement on gradpublicjobs.ie looking for qualified meteorologists for apprenticeships- implying we were yellow packing Met Eireann. I don't know how valid an example it is- but it did make most of us shut up.

I don't think anyone is saying that being an accountant (which is a maths discipline if ever there was one), a historian or a translator 'is wasting their time'. The last person let go in any failing company is the company credit controller- no-one else, the credit controller. However, there are a limit to how many credit controllers we need nationally. An actuarial accountant- is the highest paying graduate job in the country- and has consistently been for the last 25 years. Some accountancy jobs (I'm a qualified forensic accountant for example) don't pay nearly as well- but they're the outliers. As for historians- I can think of 3 very highly regarded historians, without thinking particularly hard- however, they're all on defined payscales in academia- and I imagine earn more from piecemeal work in journalism or the odd book- than they do in their day jobs. Nothing wrong with being a historian- but we don't need thousands of them. We do need thousands of computer programmers, lab analysts etc. We need a few tens of historians.

As for translators- traditionally we had little need for them. I worked in that sector for a while- and ended up as a manager in a call centre (back in the 90s)- before I went back and did a second degree nights and weekends in IT- and escaped. Yes- its a job- but the pay is crap- the hours are random- and the nature of the job is only a step up from working in retail- which I also did back in the 80s and 90s. Been there- done that.

jsms88 wrote: »

I don't like your use of term 'soft' subjects and 'hard' subjects. Go and look at the statistics. There are very few differences in the grading of different subjects every year. There are no soft/easy subjects in the Leaving Cert. Every subject requires commitment and hard work to do well. Alas, dare I say, your view is one which I have come across from many maths teachers over the years; that their subject is better than everyone elses. And yet, when I have gone on holidays I have found my school-learned French very useful but, to date, I have never yet stood on the side of a GAA pitch wondering what the angle of the sun to the goalpost is!

I didn't come up with the term- however, it is a truism. I am not looking at the grading of the subjects- hell, geography has the best grading of any subject in the leaving cert. I am talking about studying hard and soft subjects- as a stepping stone to better paid employment in later life. Grading is well and good- so bloody what that there are more As in Leaving Cert geography- than in Leaving Cert Chemistry- so bloody what. It is myopic in the extreme- looking at the leaving cert as a 'be-all and end-all'- and the only people who seem to like selling this- and coralling students on this basis- are teachers.

Personally- if I had any say in the matter- I *would* pay a mediocre teacher of honours maths- a significant premium over a brilliant teacher of geography. There- I've said it. I agree with the maths teachers you've encountered. As for French- I didn't do it for the leaving cert- however, I spent a couple of years attending meetings in Brussels- and now get tossed any French documents that need translating in work (I did German and Spanish in school- not French).

The point being made is- someone who is competent in a Stem discipline- is eminently more employable and has for more employment opportunities open to them- than a brilliant historian, a brilliant archaeologist, a brilliant scholar with a first in Greek and Roman etc etc. Pushing students into studying subjects- to clock up points and get into Archaeology or whatever- is all well and good- but where the hell is that student going to be in 10 years time? Claiming the dole? Versus a boring but fairly competent Java programmer- who is on 80k per annum and has 14-15 companies offering them all manner of incentives to jump ship to them............. Have a look at Linked-in- I'm not making it up.

Also- have a look at the competition that PAS ran for an archaeologist post in Meath Co. Co. last Autumn- 1,364 highly qualified applicants interviewed for a single post. Versus- a PAS competition for an EO ICT competition- held the same week- 1,670 applicants interviewed from an original pool of for 220 posts.

There are a very limited number of reasonable paying posts in soft subject areas- versus a much wider field of far better paid posts (with a few notable exceptions- notably in consulting) in the core Stem areas.

By the way- I'm not entirely clear why you put accountancy down as a soft subject- its viewed by many students as boring- but its a decent well paying job- but its a critical maths and business discipline. I wouldn't rule out business disciplines- in favour of the core stem subjects. The point being made in the article- is how unfair it is that there are more boys in well paying computer jobs- than there are jobs for the brilliant girl with her 1:1 in geography degree- how unfair it is- we need to do something to give the girl with her 1:1 in geography the same opportunities as the boy with his degree in computer science........... Have a read of it..........

jsms88 wrote: »

Who is anyone to go around telling someone else that their chosen path/subject is not valued by society or a waste of time. A student who loves Spanish may go on to take part in UN/NATO work resolving international relations disputes or even wars. A student who loves music may go on to write symphonies, celebrated the world over, that bring hours of joy to people. These are not cures for cancer but we don't live in a Marxist state. We have free will to makes choices about what we do with out lives. It's not about allocating all the resources 'for the greater good' and, therefore, it is not appropriate for a government, through it's teacher pay structures, to effectively devalue anyone who doesn't go down the road of science. And, let's be honest, the vast majority who do go down that road are not going to cure cancer. With all due respect to them, they will work hard in their labs, etc. but they will achieve nothing of note. We cannot devalue everyone else in the hope that we will find the one in a billion scientist that makes a difference once a century.

No-one is telling anyone that their chosen path is a waste of time.
Unfortunately- economics governs life in general- whether you like it or not.
If there are 400 good geography students going for 1 post in Met Eireann- why should met eireann pay over the odds for the brilliant student. Much the same- Deloitte (for example) are only looking for graduates- they are not specifically looking for disciplines for their graduate programmes- however- they then expect their chosen candidates to leverage their backgrounds- to get their qualifications in accountancy, finance, tax law- and various scientific disciplines- as they see fit (obviously tax features strongly). Someone with their 1:1 in geography- is an apprentice- expected to now go and educate themselves- it is a stepping stone- not the end. If you use it as an end- your only option open to you- is probably as a teacher..........

As for a student who writes symphonies bringing joy to the world- honestly- I'm not sure you realise just how desperate this sounds. How many Irish music students have written symphonies which have featured on the world stage over the past 30 years? None that any random person walking down the street can point to. Someone will probably mention U2- as an example. While U2 have indeed featured on the curriculum- with the exception of the Edge, who received a few piano lessons as a kid- they are self taught...........

Sure we have to be free to make our own choices (and indeed mistakes)- we are not in a Marxist society- however, it behoves us to encourage students to think outside the box- and to try and view their choices as stepping stones on a journey- rather than as a destination in its own right. This is a core concept that teachers are singularly failing to grasp.

jsms88 wrote: »

Furthermore, for similar reasons to above, I would advocate keeping multinationals as far away from our schools as possible. Primarily because not only do they not care about the students, but there's a lot more to school life and even college life than simply being trained for the workforce. Thankfully, our schools are not mere factories, building robots to work in Apple or Pfizer, nor should we ever encourage them to become so.

Yes- there is more to school, or college, than being trained for the workforce- however, the simple fact of the matter is- after you've got your brilliant leaving cert, your 1:1 in geography from Trinity (or where-ever) and your hDip- you then are tossed onto the job market where you have to earn your crust. Ignoring this salient fact- is rather convenient. It is not fair to assume that society is going to pick up the bucket for all those unemployed archaeology students out there- society does not owe them a debt- these students should be helped equip themselves to help themselves. Hell- even the old expression about giving a man a fish and you feed him for a day- but teaching a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime- comes to mind.

Education- for educations sake- is a luxury. This seems to be lost there somewhere. Its also why we don't have the same apprenticeship system that is so successful in Germany and elsewhere- we would do well to study what works elsewhere and see if we could apply some elements of it here.

jsms88 wrote: »

Of course, a hugely practical consequence of your suggestions, is that there will no longer be any history or geography teachers if we refuse to pay them equally to their colleagues. Why would anyone want to go down a second-rate career path? Take a look at America and Trump and see what happens when people decide that they have nothing to learn from history. I wasn't around back then but I would imagine that Hitler's rise to power was based on similar rhetoric to what we're hearing out of America these days. You strongly imply that the only reason to do a non-science subject is to score points in the Leaving Cert but this is totally incorrect as my several examples above show.

Not at all.
There will always be a cadre of students out there- who are happy with their 1:1 in history, or greek and roman civilisations, or geography etc etc- and willing to leverage it for whatever its worth. I did say- have a common payscale for teachers- but pay subject specific allowances for teachers of stem subjects etc. You could stagger this- so there was a 6k per annum allowance for teaching chemistry- alongside a 'welcome payment' for the new teacher to cover a specific percentage of their student loans (normally it would be 8% per annum- so their loans are repaid after teaching for just over 12 years).

I'd also strongly suggest that teaching- as a profession- *needs* to try and encourage more men into the profession. If the tables were turned- and 80-90% of all teachers (in absolute numbers) were men- there would be uproar and quotas prescribed to get women into teaching ASAP. However, there is neer a whimper- its more a footnote. This gender dominance in teaching- is not an Irish phenomena- it is however the second highest international gender dominance noted in the OECD sectoral reports.

jsms88 wrote: »

So, your whole argument is based on an assumption that science is the way to go and we'll all be better off when science is the be-all-and-end-all of our society. This is simply not true.

I was discussing the Indo article- which has gotten a lot of people badly riled (if you haven't read it- I'd strongly encourage you to do so).

There is no single discipline that is the be-all and end-all in society- I would argue that each student out there should equip themselves with a range of disciplines, preferably suited to them and their goals in life- and that they should reassess where they are- perhaps every 5 years or so- and make new choices as they progress in life- cognisant of the situations and circumstances they find themselves in.

Anyone who expects to do their leaving cert and their degree, and perhaps a hdip or a grad-dip- and thats it- they're equipped for life- is living under a rock- and while they may get away with it- they are the ones who are expecting society to meld to their wishes and accommodate them- for their intranscience.

I'm not entirely sure what your reticence towards our multinational is- I've attended a lot of very good courses held by several of them- and learnt skills, and had a chance to bounce ideas off people, which has been very helpful to me. One large US employer here- is already providing second level programming and apprenticeships to promising students. Sitting everyone down in the classroom- and using a one-size fits all approach- patently has failed- why should we continue flogging a dead horse?

pq0n1ct4ve8zf5 · 20-08-2017 12:37pm

It's just capitalism in action really, and as much to do with the decline in profitability
of print media as anything else. People like Katie Hopkins on one side and Mulally on the other generate revenue now by being outrageous, seemingly a good portion or even majority of it from people who keep them in print by reading them to outrage themselves.

I keep hearing about how this is infecting our campuses, I work with college students and it is in its hole.

Absolutely there are aspects of men's lives which could be better supported, in terms of physical and mental health, domestic and sexual violence particularly. But these are things that just need to be prioritised more rather than have taken any retrograde steps. Getting into a who gets a sh1ttier more patronising go in ads or wider pop culture competition seems petty and unproductive tbh.

Being a man is an aspect of one's identity which is going to hugely influence your life, in some positive ways and some negative ways. Just like being a woman. Or being Irish. Or being white. But IME the only place where there are any significant portion of people for whom it's their whole big victim deal is online, and that's mostly because the fcuking USA has been leaking its bull**** everywhere for quite a while now.

jsms88 · 20-08-2017 1:23pm

Ok, I accept the sound logic of a lot of your points. However, you have responded a bit obsessively to all of my specific examples rather than my actual points. Yes, few Irish people go on to achieve fame in music but that's only an example; it's not the point. The point is they should be free to go down such a road if they see fit and not be pushed or corraled, to use your word, in a direction that don't want to go in because someone else has decided that they'll be happier sitting at a desk making lots of money. They may not be.

Likewise for historians, accountants, translators. These are just examples of valuable jobs that some people may be passionate about and they shouldn't have to fight against a system that tells them to go in a more commerical/economic direction if they do not want to. [I include accounting as an example as it is not a STEM subject, according to the Dept of Education.]

You acknowledge that there is more to schooling that prepping for the workforce but the backbone of your argument for how the system should work is how many jobs are out there and how much money can be made in certain sectors. Fifteen-twenty years ago, you were mad if you weren't looking at going into computer science and we all know what happened to that particular sector!

People should consider employability and earnings of course but people should, where possible, do what they love and are passionate about. I remember being almost embarrassed when I went to college because I picked the course I wanted to do and people used to ask me why I wasn't doing some other course just because I got the points for it. Well, yes, I got the points and yes, I could make more money but I don't want to go into that area. Your logic is the reason we have lots of people in stable employment, living in big houses and driving expensive cars but who are depressed and stressed in their jobs and from the young age of 35 are counting down the weeks until they can get out... wishing their lives away.

You argue against girls being corralled into certain 'soft' subjects (although as I said before, they don't exist and I consider this a snobby term used by teachers of certain subjects for an ego boost) but your solution is to corral them into other subjects. There should be no corralling in any direction. Our education system should give people every option and possibility and allow them to follow their own paths and not discriminate based on what's 'hot' at a particular time or what others people think everyone wants in a career (money, etc.)

And even if there is some justification for encouraging people to follow a particular path at a particular time, there should be no stronger incentivising than informing and advising people of the situation and allowing them to make up their own minds. Playing around with wages of people in the same workplace doing the same amount of work is not acceptable. In fact, using teachers pay as the mechanism makes no sense anyway. Actually, now that I think about it, I don't see how paying certain teachers more is going to increase the number of students going into a particular sector to begin with. Students don't know anything about teachers' pay. All it will do is increase the number of people who want to be Maths teachers.

The_Conductor · 20-08-2017 1:42pm

Ignoring the rest of your post- and focusing on your statement-

Fifteen-twenty years ago, you were mad if you weren't looking at going into computer science and we all know what happened to that particular sector!

What are you talking about?

I'm not aware of a computer programmer who was unemployed throughout the downturn- and the increases in salaries as the economy has improved- has been in a few select sectors- notably the IT sector- partly as a reflection of people abandoning certain sectors (such as IT) following the financial crash- and the dot com bubble.......

Of all the examples you could have chosen- you picked the strongest and fastest growing sector in the Irish economy......

Try hiring a Java or SQL programmer or a database administrator- you'll be shocked at how few candidates there are out there- and what they cost.........

I am saying- people need to look at the bigger picture- and viewing the leaving cert as the be-all and end-all- is myopic, and unhelpful.

A push into vocational education- akin to the German system- is long overdue here in Ireland.

jsms88 · 20-08-2017 2:07pm

The_Conductor wrote: »

Ignoring the rest of your post- and focusing on your statement-

What are you talking about?

I'm not aware of a computer programmer who was unemployed throughout the downturn- and the increases in salaries as the economy has improved- has been in a few select sectors- notably the IT sector- partly as a reflection of people abandoning certain sectors (such as IT) following the financial crash- and the dot com bubble.......

Of all the examples you could have chosen- you picked the strongest and fastest growing sector in the Irish economy......

Try hiring a Java or SQL programmer or a database administrator- you'll be shocked at how few candidates there are out there- and what they cost.........

I am saying- people need to look at the bigger picture- and viewing the leaving cert as the be-all and end-all- is myopic, and unhelpful.

A push into vocational education- akin to the German system- is long overdue here in Ireland.

Everyone knows the IT bubble burst years ago! Looks at the demand for computer science courses in college. Look at the collapse in points needed to get in this century. Look at the way multinational IT companies like Dell fled to Eastern Europe. Great, it might be reviving in the last few years but if I was employed in IT over the last 20 years it was hardly a stable environment.

um7y1h83ge06nx · 20-08-2017 3:20pm

jsms88 wrote: »

Everyone knows the IT bubble burst years ago! Looks at the demand for computer science courses in college. Look at the collapse in points needed to get in this century. Look at the way multinational IT companies like Dell fled to Eastern Europe. Great, it might be reviving in the last few years but if I was employed in IT over the last 20 years it was hardly a stable environment.

There are a few other views on that. Yes the dot-com bubble burst around 2000 and 2001 that had a big impact on jobs.

Before this you had loads doing computer science as it was seen as a golden career. A lot didn't fully understand what the courses entailed and drop out rates were very high. This coupled with the dot-com bubble bursting means that students are wary of doing computer science, dropping demands in the courses and hence dropping the points.

Also there is a huge level of misunderstanding regarding Dell in Limerick. The manufacturing side was wrapped up and moved to Poland but the professional services and development side of the business stayed on. So to be blunt, the lower skilled jobs were lost and the higher skilled kept. Since then Dell has expanded the higher skilled divisions in Limerick, they are frequently hiring.

IT is such a broad term, the reality often gets lost in the media.

Myself, I've been constantly employed in software development since I graduated in 2005, moving 3 times by choice. Touch wood it stays that way of course.

limnam · 20-08-2017 3:50pm

jsms88 wrote: »

Everyone knows the IT bubble burst years ago! Looks at the demand for computer science courses in college. Look at the collapse in points needed to get in this century. Look at the way multinational IT companies like Dell fled to Eastern Europe. Great, it might be reviving in the last few years but if I was employed in IT over the last 20 years it was hardly a stable environment.

As Geroge Hook would say. Horse manure.

I'd move away from the IT example as you clearly have no idea what you're talking about.

The_Conductor · 20-08-2017 5:03pm

jsms88 wrote: »

Everyone knows the IT bubble burst years ago! Looks at the demand for computer science courses in college. Look at the collapse in points needed to get in this century. Look at the way multinational IT companies like Dell fled to Eastern Europe. Great, it might be reviving in the last few years but if I was employed in IT over the last 20 years it was hardly a stable environment.

Dell sent two factory manufacturing lines for laptops- from Limerick to Poland- and they've both been sent elsewhere since. This was low-skill/no-skill manufacturing and assembley jobs- definitely not IT. Dell currently employ 2,780 people in Ireland- even after their 'flight to Eastern Europe'.

The biggest fall-out from the dot.com bubble of 2000/2001- was low skill / no skill posts- including a shedload of callcentre jobs- migrated elsewhere. Hell- I trained in my replacement in two separate companies- one of them in Slovenia, the other in India.

As for the demand for computer courses in college- I'm not entirely clear what your point is- if you look at the number of applicants- there is no fall in the number- over the last 20 years. None- at all....... Certain sectors fell off a cliff- and have rebounded- including a few subjects that you might not imagine- such as Agricultural Science. The number of applicants for Ag Science has had a wholly unexpected renaissance. Construction type courses (such as materials engineering etc) fell off a cliff in tandem with Ag Science- and are now back in vogue again (but not as spectacularly as Ag Science).

I've been in IT for most of the last 25 years- with a small gap for a few years- where I got diverted into call centre hell- I don't regret getting into IT- I regret that when I first went to Uni- that Comp Sci wasn't my course of choice- but I did go back and do a second undergrad degree in Comp Sci in the evenings (which was how I escaped from call centre hell back in the 90s).

You seem to have a very bad idea of what working in IT has been like for the last 20-30 years- I assure you- working in Dell in Limerick- was not an IT job- in the same manner- the HP sweatshop in Leixlip where they only recently finished making ink cartridges- also, most certainly, is not/was not an IT job.........

Studying Greek and Roman Civilisations- because you don't have to pay university fees and have an interest in it- is a waste of your time, my time- and society's time- and a drag on the exchequer. Sure- it may help with your critical thinking etc- if you leverage it in this way- and some people do- but a sizeable majority of students discover they've spent 3 years doing a hard slog (or perhaps a not so hard slog)- to get their piece of paper- and its worth sweet sod all.

Perhaps this is the arts degree versus other disciplines- coming to the fore?
Studying an abstract topic- or an arts degree- is a luxury- which has really exploded- since fees were abolished. Does this mean that what was a luxury became a common good- that anyone could aspire to? I know- from interviewing candidates for posts- that I don't give a rats arse that they have a degree in Modern English- or a degree in Computer Science- if the degree had a thesis that had to be researched and defended- I'm interested in that- or if there was an apprenticeship included as part of the degree- I'm damn interested in that. After that- I couldn't care less whether you have a 1:1 or a pass degree- I want to see what you've been doing with yourself and what your experience is. Once upon a time a degree meant something- not anymore. Hell- some of our pre-eminent business people- didn't do their leaving certs- never mind their degrees.

I find the sense of entitlement of some students- who have a 1:1 in an Artsy subject- baffling- however, I also am not necessarily impressed with someone with the latest and brightest Comp Sci qualification- though I do have more time for them. Had one girl tell me all about Barry Smith out in UCD and her robotics project for an hour a few months ago- I loved hearing her story- but ultimately- her lack of experience was why she didn't get the job- not the fact that she was the only female candidate interviewed (8 people were short listed for interview- the successful candidate sold himself and his skills in a way that none of the others were capable of).

Its a hard market out there- and kids do need to be equipped for the modern world. Implying to them that a good arts degree is valuable- is giving them a sense of security that is wholly unwarranted.

You are standing up for historians and other soft professions- to a remarkable extent. I know this is something that we are not going to agree on- come what may.

From my own experiences- I would argue that wholly aside from the subjects one studies in school- or the degree they do in college- the person, and what they make of what they encounter in the world- is far more important that the slip of paper they have. Degrees have become so devalued in the modern economy- because we are churning out such vast numbers of people with their parchments- who to be brutally honest- are incapable of doing very much at all. Your argument- that the arts people at least can think in a critical manner- perhaps holds some water- but its still not going to get them a job- the scientist or the engineer- can get their choice of entry level post in
any of a plethora of different companies. Look at Deloittes Irish partners- they include a civil engineer and a girl with a geology degree among their number (the rest of them are predominantly accountants/tax specialists). I don't see any historians in their numbers- nor archaeologists- both disciplines of which we have trained improbable numbers over the last 15 years.

You obviously think I'm being mean or unfair in my criticism of the soft subjects- I don't think I am- perhaps I am being a little cynical- but thats only from my own experiences- having been on both sides of the fence.

jsms88 · 20-08-2017 5:20pm

The_Conductor wrote: »

Ignoring the rest of your post- and focusing on your statement

Convenient for you. I rest my case.

The_Conductor · 20-08-2017 5:25pm

jsms88 wrote: »

Convenient for you. I rest my case.

Thankyou- I needed a smile.

Eric Cartman · 20-08-2017 9:09pm

I think these things mostly exist online. I have a few women in my life who, over the last few years have taken hardcore to blaming men for everything and buying the una mullally 'everything is a mans fault' line to heart. I equally have some other friends who are male who constantly post about how the end is nigh and all women are just false rape accusation hardcore feminists trying to have men eradicated.

And looking at those two groups, what I've found is a very common trait, these extreme beliefs are all held by utter losers. Losers sitting at home in their parents house, unemployed, never had an other half, no hobbies except drugs or posting crap on instragram, rewatching 90s tv shows all day, 0 motivation, 0 aspirations.

If you go out in the real world and converse with people who have careers or go to pubs with friends or do any of the very normal outgoing things that normal people do , you will almost never encounter the 'MRA Neckbeard rape squad' or the 'feminazis' . With the exception of political gender quotas (which I oppose) it hasn't penetrated life here at all.

Lemming · 21-08-2017 1:44pm

jsms88 wrote: »

Everyone knows the IT bubble burst years ago! Looks at the demand for computer science courses in college. Look at the collapse in points needed to get in this century. Look at the way multinational IT companies like Dell fled to Eastern Europe. Great, it might be reviving in the last few years but if I was employed in IT over the last 20 years it was hardly a stable environment.

I'm a computer science graduate. I am a computer programmer. I graduated in 2001 literally as a lot of the big players all went into hiring freezes as the silly money from the dot-com bubble popped. That still left all of the sensible money (of which there was a lot).

Now, let us pause a moment. When you say "IT"; what do you mean? 1st line tech support at eircom, Dell, etc.? Assembly line "technicians"? Business Analysts? Technical writers? Software developers? Software Architects? SQL developers? SQL Admin? IT Admin? Managers for any and/or all of the above? I could keep listing jobs for the next three posts worth and still keep going ...

Back on track; to hear my tale of woe, I spent two and a half months during the summer after graduating technically unemployed, gaining and commencing work in late August. Many of my friends told a similar tale. Oh noes; I had a summer holiday! 1 1z 0ppr3zz3d.

TL;DR: jsms88 hasn't a clue of what they speak regards IT

newport2 · 21-08-2017 3:53pm

Lemming wrote: »

TL;DR: jsms88 hasn't a clue of what they speak regards IT

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iptba · 21-08-2017 9:47pm

The Leaving Cert results broken down by gender are up at examinations.ie: https://www.examinations.ie/statistics/

I think it is interesting to look at the top grade (Grade 1=A1) at honours level as, even with hard work, many people would struggle to get such a grade. Some sort of natural ability or a lot of interest plays a part in a lot of cases.

Languages:
Irish: girls: 799 boys: 346 ratio: 1:0.43
French: girls: 616 (66%) boys: 314 ratio: 1:0.51
German: girls: 196 boys: 110 ratio: 1:0.56
Spanish: girls: 277 boys: 134 ratio: 1:0.48

English: girls: 675 boys: 441 ratio: 1:0.65

Mathematics: girls: 279 boys: 675 ratio: 1: 2.42

If it was just down to girls working harder, this is not the type of pattern you would expect.

With these subjects particularly English, Irish and Maths, there is not much scope to not do the subjects. With other subjects, biased groups of individuals could take or not take the subject.

Middle Man · 24-08-2017 11:32pm

correction wrote: »

Nah, it's just a case of certain insecure men having things their own way for so long now viewing equality (which we still don't even have) as a threat to their status.

Are you still only at that stage - it's not the 1990's you know!

2017 - It's time to move on!!!

Many of us men now see women as full capable adults and with equality comes shared responsibility. Women need to embrace the opportunities of today that generations of women before did not have. To younger Irish women, please stop continually bitching about men, because that does not exactly demonstrate that you're capable adults IMO.

There are insecure men, but some women can also be viewed as such and certain bad behaviour reinforces that viewpoint. For example, there are certain women who are just plain rude to the point of passing remarks on the appearance of males in public - did they ever learn any manners? I am fed up of women who call men pathetic - they should look at themselves first and ask, "Why do we feel the need to behave in such an obnoxious and paranoid way towards men? Is it not pathetic to feel the need to behave in this way?" Also, why are many Irish women so dour looking and why is it that they are gaining an international reputation for being manipulative?

However, all this behaviour is doing is encouraging harder men like myself who now practice zero tolerance towards any man hating feminism. In fact, Irish men have a bad reputation for over-seeking approval from women (including mothers) and are seen as weak - however, this will change unless feminism undergoes a major overhaul and becomes less bigoted and more inclusive. Many guys here see me as too strong in my views, but I'm of the view that Irish men have become far too soft as do people abroad - Irish men will increasingly feel the need to be tougher and demand respect! However, things in motion have a tendency to go too far and I'm sure that's not what anyone here wants.

Irish women need to grow up!

The_Conductor · 25-08-2017 7:33am

Honestly- sometimes some women go out of their way to try and make you as miserable as possible- just because you're male. I've had doors slammed in my face while I'm carrying heavy things- and been sneered at- with a comment such as- 'lets see you multitask your way out of that' etc.

Thats just uncivil and mean behaviour- and if a guy did this to a girl- he'd end up in HR, with his suitability to continue with the business in question- and told he was lucky he wasn't reported to the Gardaí on assault charges. Instead- its a group of 20 something girls- who get a laugh out of taunting some of the older guys they work with- safe in the knowledge that they are the right gender..........

You also have the polar opposite- I had a certain former Táiniste open a door and help with a security code for me- when she could see I was overburdened (and wary that I going to be accidentally hit with an elbow etc).

Good manners are in short supply- and I don't know if picking on guys is some sort of an insecurity- its not acceptable behaviour though.

Re the girls above- I did report them to my manager- who was female- and was told to 'Man up'........ Like what?

Damned if you, damned if you don't. Can't win. Heads you win, tails, I loose.......

evolving_doors · 25-08-2017 7:51am

A few things I'd like to add.

The masters quaification for teaching was done away with yonks ago, get your facts straight.
In any event I qualified for the masters payment, because I'm pro-rata (not full time) it'll work out about 20 years before it pays for itslef!!!! Horay!!
Secondly, teaching now requires a masters level (for the 'hdip'). So the chances of ANy teacher ever going back to do another masters after commencing teaching is very slim (unless its for leadership and management to get the only promotion going). This is a sad situation for continuing professional development.

Next--- why does this debate always wind up with a pi55ing contest about honours bloody maths (and engineers being the best thing since slice bread).
We're pushing square pegs into round holes... 30% counts for points now! 40% in hons maths and you can get a whopping amount of points for little understanding gained. The system is a joke.

Gender! Yes there is a large majority of primary teachers female... but check out the majority who go on to become principal!

Why don't more males enter teaching... money. When the bust happened a lot of engineers under the sun thought about strolling into teaching and assumed they didnt need a qualification and could teach maths no problem. It was a weekly moan on the T&L forum from said engineers. Anyway.. when things picked up they legged it again for the higher pay.

Why do they want more females to enter high paying professions (a la stem) ... to drive down wages.

Soarer · 25-08-2017 11:17am

Da Boss wrote: »

Is anyone here in agreement with me when I say there's an anti-male movement in ireland gaining pace quickly, this movement consisting of both women and indeed some men to rather puzzlingly

Middle Man · 25-08-2017 12:27pm

The_Conductor wrote: »

Honestly- sometimes some women go out of their way to try and make you as miserable as possible- just because you're male. I've had doors slammed in my face while I'm carrying heavy things- and been sneered at- with a comment such as- 'lets see you multitask your way out of that' etc.

Thats just uncivil and mean behaviour- and if a guy did this to a girl- he'd end up in HR, with his suitability to continue with the business in question- and told he was lucky he wasn't reported to the Gardaí on assault charges. Instead- its a group of 20 something girls- who get a laugh out of taunting some of the older guys they work with- safe in the knowledge that they are the right gender..........

You also have the polar opposite- I had a certain former Táiniste open a door and help with a security code for me- when she could see I was overburdened (and wary that I going to be accidentally hit with an elbow etc).

Good manners are in short supply- and I don't know if picking on guys is some sort of an insecurity- its not acceptable behaviour though.

Re the girls above- I did report them to my manager- who was female- and was told to 'Man up'........ Like what?

Damned if you, damned if you don't. Can't win. Heads you win, tails, I loose.......

Some women think they're smart in their attitudes to men but all they're doing is strengthening the men's rights movement and such is clearly gaining ground elsewhere (even the UK). It is also apparent the radical feminism has created a new wave of misogyny and that is a worrying trend - feminism needs a radical change of image before this problem gets worse.

20 years ago, I never viewed feminism in the negative light that I view it nowadays - clearly, the attitudes of some women is creating a shift in the mindset of males towards women. Also, this thing of redoing the man's wardrobe - well I can say this much, it would so not happen with me in a relationship - I psychologically demolished a women who passed remarks on my appearance (I've a very sharp tongue) and hopefully she won't do it again. I'm the type of guy who is prepared to play it either nice or rough depending how I'm treated.

BTW, it is fair to say that there are some women who are very nice and pleasant to talk to.

evolving_doors · 25-08-2017 12:40pm

Soarer wrote: »

Mammy pig has a big tummy too btw.... but you'll never see her kids tell her that

silverharp · 25-08-2017 1:06pm

Gebgbegb wrote: »

Why do they want more females to enter high paying professions (a la stem) ... to drive down wages.

well thats for sure, but its zero sum at this stage, any women with high IQ and ability have voted with their feet and gone into medicine, pharmacy, dentistry biotech law accountancy etc. they dont want to be frog marched into IT

Soarer · 25-08-2017 2:46pm

Gebgbegb wrote: »

Mammy pig has a big tummy too btw.... but you'll never see her kids tell her that

That was my point.

Mammy pig can do no wrong, whereas Daddy Pig literally can't hang a picture.

The_Conductor · 25-08-2017 2:55pm

Soarer wrote: »

That was my point.

Mammy pig can do no wrong, whereas Daddy Pig literally can't hang a picture.

As for poor little brother George- is it any wonder he needs to bring a pet dinosaur around with him...........

johnnyskeleton · 25-08-2017 9:32pm

Generally I dont think there is any specific anti male sentiment in the wider population. Sure, sometimes people say rude things but thats probably jusy cos they are rude or annoyed or something.

However, I think there are visible signs of an anti male, or specifically anti masculinity trend in the NGO sectors. Things like the White Ribbon campaign, which is a campaign stated to be to stop mens violence against women, as opposed to all domestic violence, and when you pare back their organisational structure you find that despite having a few male spokespeople and saying that it is a mens movement for men by men, in reality women are in charge of the organisation behind it and they are puahing a very specific anti man/ anti male agenda.

More recently, I saw the lineup for Pieta house's talks during Eletric Picnic. Youd think, even with all the scandals about mental health charities notwothstanding, that there would be nothing objectionable in this. However, if you read the first two topics:

http://www.alustforlife.com/soundeffect/electric-picnic-full-line-up

The womens talk is about how to be a better woman. But the mans talk is about how to be less masculine because of patriachy. They cant even organise a mens mental health programme without telling men to be ashamed of their gender.

If I felt suicidal because of the pressures of being a man - working to support a family, or lonliness, or health concerns etc imagine if I rang Pieta house and instead of giving me impartial counselling they gave me both barrells od feminist indoctrination, "its ok to be a weak emasculated man, embrace your inferiority to women" etc then it would make me worse not better.

I wonder do these people genuinely believe that telling men not to be men is good for mental health or do they genuinely just not give a f*** about men? Something tells me that no one is that stupid, especially not the doctoral level qualified psychaitrist who started it!

Middle Man · 25-08-2017 10:51pm

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

Generally I dont think there is any specific anti male sentiment in the wider population. Sure, sometimes people say rude things but thats probably jusy cos they are rude or annoyed or something.

However, I think there are visible signs of an anti male, or specifically anti masculinity trend in the NGO sectors. Things like the White Ribbon campaign, which is a campaign stated to be to stop mens violence against women, as opposed to all domestic violence, and when you pare back their organisational structure you find that despite having a few male spokespeople and saying that it is a mens movement for men by men, in reality women are in charge of the organisation behind it and they are puahing a very specific anti man/ anti male agenda.

More recently, I saw the lineup for Pieta house's talks during Eletric Picnic. Youd think, even with all the scandals about mental health charities notwothstanding, that there would be nothing objectionable in this. However, if you read the first two topics:

http://www.alustforlife.com/soundeffect/electric-picnic-full-line-up

The womens talk is about how to be a better woman. But the mans talk is about how to be less masculine because of patriachy. They cant even organise a mens mental health programme without telling men to be ashamed of their gender.

If I felt suicidal because of the pressures of being a man - working to support a family, or lonliness, or health concerns etc imagine if I rang Pieta house and instead of giving me impartial counselling they gave me both barrells od feminist indoctrination, "its ok to be a weak emasculated man, embrace your inferiority to women" etc then it would make me worse not better.

I wonder do these people genuinely believe that telling men not to be men is good for mental health or do they genuinely just not give a f*** about men? Something tells me that no one is that stupid, especially not the doctoral level qualified psychaitrist who started it!

As usual, the men are being blamed for everything and put basically, any man's pain is self inflicted - of course, the women are the real victims! Yeah, right!!! :rolleyes:

Our so called 'liberals' who have run this country's social fabric into the ground (societal selfishness and greed) really don't get it do they? With foreign examples such as the proposed new advertising standards (banning all gender stereotypes) across the water, it's a case of Ireland lagging behind yet again, but what's new about that!!!

marcus001 · 26-08-2017 5:11am

jsms88 wrote: »

That's total speculation of course. It also implies that at the age of 15, when choosing their leaving cert subjects, girls are in some way more capable of choosing subjects that they are 'good' at than boys are. I don't buy that. A 15 year old boy who is great at chemistry is equally as likely to pick it for his leaving cert as a capable girl.

That's total speculation of course.

I think it's more likely than not that if a girl is good at STEM she'll know it and if she's not she'll know it, whereas lads are probably far more likely to overestimate their own abilities.

It's why we drive faster and crash more, it's in our nature.

marcus001 · 26-08-2017 5:23am

jsms88 wrote: »

Everyone knows the IT bubble burst years ago! Looks at the demand for computer science courses in college. Look at the collapse in points needed to get in this century. Look at the way multinational IT companies like Dell fled to Eastern Europe. Great, it might be reviving in the last few years but if I was employed in IT over the last 20 years it was hardly a stable environment.

Yeah this isn't true, virtually everyone coming out of computer science from UCD or Trinity these days has a guaranteed job.

Anti-male movement

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