Speeding ticket while in England in hire car

pa990 wrote: »

No.. they cant and wont serve a UK summons here.

as for the exchange of info.. that has been hit with a few glitches, and wont be happening anytime soon.. and with Brexit.. it'll be many many if years if never.

Yes they can serve outside the UK, and do on occassion when they know your address. I have personally seen a PPS (NI) summons issued to a southern address and know of CPS summons also issued to an Irish address, not common, but certainly not unknown.

The exchange of information is back up and running since the Road Traffic Act 2016 came into force, it's a bilateral agreement and nothing to do with the EU so Brexit should not change it.

pa990 wrote: »

NO NO NO... doesn't happen, a uk summons WILL NOT be served in ireland

The statuary declaration makes no sense in an irish legal context.

If the UK authorities do send them over.. and i've only seen it once.. (and it was binned)

"NO NO NO... doesn't happen, a uk summons WILL NOT be served in ireland".......

.......but yet you have seen one meaning it does happen, great arguement!

pa990 wrote: »

(Great retort :rolleyes:)

i have seen one.. and it wasnt served.

re-read my post.

i saw this situation once. and since then, they are binned before they progress any further.

Christ. i even used BOLD....

How did you see one if it wasn't served?

GM228 wrote: »

How did you see one if it wasn't served?

Duh.. who serves a summons

pa990 wrote: »

re the above... how can an Irish agent of the court demand you to appear before another court outside of the state.. unless it is a European Arrest Warrant?????

not gonna happen over a traffic offence, and were talking about an arrest warrant... there is no such thing as an European summons.

I never said an Irish agent of the court demand you appear in another court outside the state, read back what I said, you can't be penalised for not showing, hence no arrest warrent, but you can be convicted.

I'll put this to bed once and for all.

pa990 wrote: »

No.. they cant and wont serve a UK summons here.

Yes they can. The ability to serve a summons outside the state stems originally from International Law, namely the Council of Europe Treaty No.30, the "European Convention on Mutual Assistance in Criminal Matters".

https://www.coe.int/en/web/conventions/full-list/-/conventions/rms/09000016800656ce

The treaty has been signed/ratified by 90 countries and many of the dualist countries such as Ireland and the UK have given the treaty legal force via their national laws, it has also been supplemented at EU level by Council Act (2000/C 197/01), the "Convention on Mutual Assistance in Criminal Matters between the Member States of the European Union".

Service of a summons is made via Registered/First Class post in these cases and the receipt for sending of the summons is considered prima facia proof of service once a statement is made confirming it was sent in accordance with UK and Irish law which is in accordance with Article 7 of the treaty.

Article 7

1 The requested Party shall effect service of writs and records of judicial verdicts which are transmitted to it for this purpose by the requesting Party.

Service may be effected by simple transmission of the writ or record to the person to be served. If the requesting Party expressly so requests, service shall be effected by the requested Party in the manner provided for the service of analogous documents under its own law or in a special manner consistent with such law.

2 Proof of service shall be given by means of a receipt dated and signed by the person served or by means of a declaration made by the requested Party that service has been effected and stating the form and date of such service. One or other of these documents shall be sent immediately to the requesting Party. The requested Party shall, if the requesting Party so requests, state whether service has been effected in accordance with the law of the requested Party. If service cannot be effected, the reasons shall be communicated immediately by the requested Party to the requesting Party.

In the UK any summons may be issued outside the UK in accordance with Rule 4.4 of the Criminal Procedures Rules 2015 as per the the provisions of the Crime (International Co-operation) Act 2003.

Rule 4.4:-

Service by leaving or posting a document

4.4.—(1) A document may be served by addressing it to the person to be served and leaving it at the appropriate address for service under this rule, or by sending it to that address by first class post or by the equivalent of first class post.

(2) The address for service under this rule on—

(a)an individual is an address where it is reasonably believed that he or she will receive it;

(b)a corporation is its principal office, and if there is no readily identifiable principal office then any place where it carries on its activities or business;

(c)an individual or corporation who is legally represented in the case is that legal representative’s office;

(d)the prosecution is the prosecutor’s office;

(e)the court officer is the relevant court office; and

(f)the Registrar of Criminal Appeals is the Criminal Appeal Office, Royal Courts of Justice, Strand, London WC2A 2LL.

(3) In this rule, ‘the relevant court office’ means—

(a)in relation to a case in a magistrates’ court or in the Crown Court, the office at which that court’s business is administered by court staff;

(b)in relation to an extradition appeal case in the High Court, the Administrative Court Office, Royal Courts of Justice, Strand, London WC2A 2LL.

Note. In addition to service in England and Wales for which these rules provide, service outside England and Wales may be allowed under other legislation. See—

(a)section 39 of the Criminal Law Act 1977(1) (service of summons, etc. in Scotland and Northern Ireland);

(b)section 1139(4) of the Companies Act 2006(2) (service of copy summons, etc. on company’s registered office in Scotland and Northern Ireland);

(c)sections 3, 4, 4A and 4B of the Crime (International Co-operation) Act 2003(3) (service of summons, etc. outside the United Kingdom) and rules 49.1 and 49.2; and

(d)section 1139(2) of the Companies Act 2006 (service on overseas company).

Proof of service is a statement saying it was sent via post in accordance with Rule 49.2 of the 2015 Act.

Proof of service outside the United Kingdom

49.2.—(1) A statement in a certificate given by or on behalf of the Secretary of State—

(a)that process has been served on any person under section 4(1) of the Crime (International Co-operation) Act 2003(service of process otherwise than by post);

(b)of the manner in which service was effected; and

(c)of the date on which process was served;

shall be admissible as evidence of any facts so stated.

(2) In this rule, ‘process’ has the same meaning as in section 51(3) of the 2003 Act.

The 2003 Act:-

3 General requirements for service of process

(1)This section applies to any process issued or made for the purposes of criminal proceedings by a court in England and Wales or Northern Ireland.

(2)The process may be issued or made in spite of the fact that the person on whom it is to be served is outside the United Kingdom.

(3)Where the process is to be served outside the United Kingdom and the person at whose request it is issued or made believes that the person on whom it is to be served does not understand English, he must—

(a)inform the court of that fact, and

(b)provide the court with a copy of the process, or of so much of it as is material, translated into an appropriate language.

(4)Process served outside the United Kingdom requiring a person to appear as a party or attend as a witness—

(a)must not include notice of a penalty,

(b)must be accompanied by a notice giving any information required to be given by rules of court.

(5)If process requiring a person to appear as a party or attend as a witness is served outside the United Kingdom, no obligation to comply with the process under the law of the part of the United Kingdom in which the process is issued or made is imposed by virtue of the service.

(6)Accordingly, failure to comply with the process does not constitute contempt of court and is not a ground for issuing a warrant to secure the attendance of the person in question.

(7)But the process may subsequently be served on the person in question in the United Kingdom (with the usual consequences for non-compliance).


4 Service of process otherwise than by post

(1)Process to which section 3 applies may, instead of being served by post, be served on a person outside the United Kingdom in accordance with arrangements made by the Secretary of State.

(2)But where the person is in a participating country, the process may be served in accordance with those arrangements only if one of the following conditions is met.

(3)The conditions are—

(a)that the correct address of the person is unknown,

(b)that it has not been possible to serve the process by post,

(c)that there are good reasons for thinking that service by post will not be effective or is inappropriate.

Ireland has more or less the same provisions in law allowing Irish courts to issue summons outside the jurisdiction.

pa990 wrote: »

That's for criminal matters

Spot on, and motoring offences are criminal matters.

Summons for motoring offences in the UK are issued as per the Criminal Procedures Rules 2015 which allow for them to be issued under the provisios of the Crime (International Co-operation) Act 2003 as already outlined.

pa990 wrote: »

It doesn't happen with minor traffic matters.

I'm speaking from experience

Nice try with your quote, but it's in relation to a book in the US which was written in 1993 in relation to US law enforcement (before the relevant laws were enacted). The US are not a signatory to the 1959 convention so it's irrelant.

I have seen them, a Met Police spokesperson has confirmed them in the media specifically in relation to motoring offences:-

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/313289/Foreign-speeders-escape-4m-fines/amp

summonses have been successfully served abroad, resulting in convictions in UK courts

I have outlined the relevant legal framework and of course there's the Gallagher vs PPS. [2012] NIMag 2 case which deals with the issue and confirms what I say, so do you still want to try convince us it can't happen?

https://www.courtsni.gov.uk/en-GB/Judicial%20Decisions/PublishedByYear/Documents/2012/[2012]%20NIMag%202/j_j_2012NIMag2Final.htm

In relatiom to your comment regarding minor offences:-

For the European Union, as it now is, an agreed protocol for service of a criminal process in respect of relatively minor offences committed in one Member State by a person residing in another dates back to the European Convention on Mutual Assistance in Criminal Matters, signed at Strasbourg on 20th April 1959. This provided for a scheme whereby, upon receiving papers from another Member State, the appropriate authority in the receiving State would proceed to arrange for service internally upon the defendant

Obviously the ruling is only applicable to Northern Ireland but it outlines the procedures involved under International Law as supported by national and EU law.

That particular case was dismissed due to a number of issues, mainly due to the way the summons was dealth such as the PPS directly issuing the summons rather than through the court and but confirms what I have said, it can be done subject to the conditions of international, EU and national law. The Criminal Procedure Rules 2015 were enacted after the case and so many points in it are not relevant.



The EU Directive on cross-border enforcement which I previously mentioned in this thread would be useless if yoy couldn't serve the summons outside the jurisdiction. It's the final piece of the jigsaw which allows the recognition of penalties outside each jurisdiction, but it still requires the use of existing arrangements.

If you couldn't serve the summons then the directive would be useless as it dosn't allow in itself for the issuing or summons or commencement of peoceedings - that is dependent on the existing arrangements I already outlined which are already in force since 2003 in the UK and 2008 here.

mikepajero182 wrote: »

Guess I should update to let anyone know.
the ticket never came.
I have been back to the uk without any issues either.

Police officers weight the difficulty of proceeding and the seriousness of the crime. Sometimes the paperwork is just binned, but don't take it for granted.