Useless pedigree bulls cost farmers millions

MeheeHohee · 09-06-2016 10:01PM #1

The below is an interesting article taken from this week's Farmers Journal. Interesting read, undeclared cesareans and use of freisans for double sucking seems to be rife. Just wondering other lad thoughts, was this well known?

Suckler farmers are being misled by some pedigree breeders on the quality of bulls.
Misleading data on pedigree bulls is costing suckler farmers up to €10m every year.

This is the finding of an investigation into bull performance by the Irish Farmers Journal. Some breeders are manipulating data on the key maternal traits of calving difficulty.

Inspections under the Gene Ireland beef breeding programme identified 136 pedigree cows on which C-sections were carried out. But over half of these C-sections were not declared by the breeding herd owners.

Further, in a quarter of these cases, the breeder claimed that the calving was “unassisted”.

Worryingly, the breeders within this elite programme are considered to be the country’s most progressive.

We can also reveal that more than 500 pedigree herds have between one and five dairy-bred cows on the farm. That can facilitate the cross-fostering of pedigree calves on to cows with higher milk yields, improving the calves’ growth rates, thereby boosting the milk yield figures of the direct bloodlines. Suckler farmers are willing to pay more for bulls whose daughters will have plentiful milk.

The IFJ investigation – based on analysis of ICBF data – has also found serious deficiencies in the fertility, functionality and management of bulls bought by commercial suckler farms. Thus:

Some 10% of bulls sold by pedigree breeders to commercial suckler farmers never produce a calf.
Another 6% produce no more than 10 calves before being culled.
Just 60% of bulls bought by commercial suckler farmers produce more than 50 calves over the course of their lifetime.
Suckler farmers buy approximately 15,000 pedigree bulls every year at an average price of €3,000, a total annual investment of €45m. The estimated financial loss is incurred as a result of bulls producing no or few calves; disruption to the calving pattern after culling of a bull; more calving difficulties than expected and daughters with lower than expected milk supply

patsy_mccabe · 10-06-2016 09:50AM

Everyone knows this is going on. The turkeys are not going to vote for Christmas, as they say.

Maybe they should adapt a programme similar to SERSIA in France and run that in parallel to the system currently in place. Ignore all data then from pedigree breeders and only use data from commercial farms. SERSIA go as far as to calf down 25 heifers from each bull and test for maternal qualities before releasing the bulls into AI. In Ireland any old bull, if it looks good in a photo, could end up in AI.

TITANIUM. · 10-06-2016 10:04AM

MeheeHohee wrote: »

The below is an interesting article taken from this week's Farmers Journal. Interesting read, undeclared cesareans and use of freisans for double sucking seems to be rife. Just wondering other lad thoughts, was this well known?

Suckler farmers are being misled by some pedigree breeders on the quality of bulls.
Misleading data on pedigree bulls is costing suckler farmers up to €10m every year.

This is the finding of an investigation into bull performance by the Irish Farmers Journal. Some breeders are manipulating data on the key maternal traits of calving difficulty.

Inspections under the Gene Ireland beef breeding programme identified 136 pedigree cows on which C-sections were carried out. But over half of these C-sections were not declared by the breeding herd owners.

Further, in a quarter of these cases, the breeder claimed that the calving was “unassisted”.

Worryingly, the breeders within this elite programme are considered to be the country’s most progressive.

We can also reveal that more than 500 pedigree herds have between one and five dairy-bred cows on the farm. That can facilitate the cross-fostering of pedigree calves on to cows with higher milk yields, improving the calves’ growth rates, thereby boosting the milk yield figures of the direct bloodlines. Suckler farmers are willing to pay more for bulls whose daughters will have plentiful milk.

The IFJ investigation – based on analysis of ICBF data – has also found serious deficiencies in the fertility, functionality and management of bulls bought by commercial suckler farms. Thus:

Some 10% of bulls sold by pedigree breeders to commercial suckler farmers never produce a calf.
Another 6% produce no more than 10 calves before being culled.
Just 60% of bulls bought by commercial suckler farmers produce more than 50 calves over the course of their lifetime.
Suckler farmers buy approximately 15,000 pedigree bulls every year at an average price of €3,000, a total annual investment of €45m. The estimated financial loss is incurred as a result of bulls producing no or few calves; disruption to the calving pattern after culling of a bull; more calving difficulties than expected and daughters with lower than expected milk supply

Ya tis fair bull **** alrite. But I think most people knew they were at that carry on. It's not just irish breeders either. I was watching "This farming life" one night and the ped limo breeder was in his yard going on about how great his heifers were. And in the shed in the background a pointy black and white with a massive bag on her in amongst his ped limo cow's, you cheating mf I said to myself. He had managed to keep her hidden the entire series to that point.

welton john · 10-06-2016 10:51AM

patsy_mccabe wrote: »

Everyone knows this is going on. The turkeys are not going to vote for Christmas, as they say.

Maybe they should adapt a programme similar to SERSIA in France and run that in parallel to the system currently in place. Ignore all data then from pedigree breeders and only use data from commercial farms. SERSIA go as far as to calf down 25 heifers from each bull and test for maternal qualities before releasing the bulls into AI. In Ireland any old bull, if it looks good in a photo, could end up in AI.

Anytime im buying straws i look at french breds first. much more balanced cattle
in general. its very rare you,ll see one without a good bit of milk behind them.
Whereas here pedigree breeders last few years been all muscle,size, ass and more ass again. putting high index maternal bulls on low milk cows and selling on 4 & 5 star bulls now is only papering over the cracks imo.

Grueller · 10-06-2016 10:52AM

In fairness there is fair sensationalism going on in that article too. We all know it is happening but the journal sounds like the sunday world talking up gangland there.
A lot of the problem with bulls not lasting in herds is the management of the herds in fairness.
Case in point, I sold a limo I had used for two seasons to a lady. He was a genuinely straight bull but heifers were going to come through so I shifted him. He was easy calved and all the rest but she had massive calving problems. She asked me to call in if I was passing. I dropped in to find cows that were factory fit. Pedigree breeders aren't all of the problem.
I have also seen lads buy bulls at show and sales and take them home and fire them straight out with 40 cows. That bull was probably on ad lib meal and pampered and then put into a totally different situation. If he goes infertile or melts away the pedigree breeder gets the blame but it is not his fault.
As I said at the start, it is going on and I do not agree with it but please, less sensationalism about it.

Grueller · 10-06-2016 10:53AM

welton john wrote: »

Anytime im buying straws i look at french breds first. much more balanced cattle
in general. its very rare you,ll see one without a good bit of milk behind them.
Whereas here pedigree breeders last few years been all muscle,size, ass and more ass again. putting high index maternal bulls on low milk cows and selling on 4 & 5 star bulls now is only papering over the cracks imo.

Agree totally. Limo breeders here want blues in a red skin.

patsy_mccabe · 10-06-2016 11:22AM

Grueller wrote: »

....
I have also seen lads buy bulls at show and sales and take them home and fire them straight out with 40 cows. That bull was probably on ad lib meal and pampered and then put into a totally different situation. If he goes infertile or melts away the pedigree breeder gets the blame but it is not his fault....

In fairness, how many buyers are told that the bulls are on ab lib meal. I was at a limousin bull sale recently and got chatting to the guy beside me. I was making this point to him and how you'd nearly want to continue feeding the bulls once you got them home and slowly wean them off the meal. He was planning on letting the bull, if he bought one, straight off with the cows. For a finish, I ended up selling him my own 2 1/2 year old bull at home. I hadn't planned on selling him, but unwillingly had yer man convinced to buy an older bull ready for action.

Grueller · 10-06-2016 02:08PM

patsy_mccabe wrote: »

In fairness, how many buyers are told that the bulls are on ab lib meal. I was at a limousin bull sale recently and got chatting to the guy beside me. I was making this point to him and how you'd nearly want to continue feeding the bulls once you got them home and slowly wean them off the meal. He was planning on letting the bull, if he bought one, straight off with the cows. For a finish, I ended up selling him my own 2 1/2 year old bull at home. I hadn't planned on selling him, but unwillingly had yer man convinced to buy an older bull ready for action.

Any show and sale I was ever at had a page on the inside cover of the catalogue that recommended buying a bull 3-6 months in advance of using him and also to wean them off meal. If a lad doesn't realise that a bull that looks like that has tonnes of meal in him he shouldn't be let out to buy a bull.

Arrow in the Knee · 10-06-2016 02:19PM

It's great to see these inspections happening and how they seen the Dairy cows 'Double Suckling' and C-Sections on cows that had 'Unassisted calving'.

Hopefully the honest breeders will be encouraged to keep doing what they're doing and knowing that there is inspections to prevent false data effecting Eurostars.

whelan2 · 10-06-2016 03:00PM

I remember showing cattle years ago,the amount of crap that was going on. Calves not registered for months after being born. Feeding turkey meal to them etc. Most judges knew what was going on and reflected that in the prize giving. The best thing I think is to buy a bull in the breeders yard. That way you can look at the dam and other stock and it will give you a good idea of how the bull will turn out. As for buying a bull and keeping him for 3-6 months before using him , most lads let the bull straight in with stock. Will icbf be naming and shaming the lads using false information?

Bellview · 10-06-2016 03:59PM

There are some good and emotional points in the article. This is the second article recently from the journal with a similar tone. Ironically its the gene Ireland herds that was used for data... a lot of show folks in that list

My view is the guys that are most prone to acting the mick are the show folks. In the Angus side the Aldi calf class has so much money in it that it encouraged folks to take months out of the calves age... the only way to help prevent this was use weighing scales. As a result a number if regular showing folks stopped last year .. the same folks were always suspect on ages.. so the scales helped. There was a calf at on show who was registered in March and when weighed he was over 2.5kgs a day... the same calf had seen the xmas U16 playing U10

the unfortunate thing here is a lot of pedigree folks could not be assed messing with dates etc as they generally play the game straight.

There is also responsibility on managing young bulls on the buyer. I sold a bull to a neighbour this year, threw him in with 80 cows, after a week he was burned out.. needed 3 weeks of a break, but was then ok

Dawggone · 10-06-2016 04:28PM

patsy_mccabe wrote: »

Everyone knows this is going on. The turkeys are not going to vote for Christmas, as they say.

Maybe they should adapt a programme similar to SERSIA in France and run that in parallel to the system currently in place. Ignore all data then from pedigree breeders and only use data from commercial farms. SERSIA go as far as to calf down 25 heifers from each bull and test for maternal qualities before releasing the bulls into AI. In Ireland any old bull, if it looks good in a photo, could end up in AI.

It goes on here also Patsy. I've been into some of the top 5 breeders of Charolais and Limousin and some of them are at it. They wouldn't mess with the age because the fines are draconian (SFP), but some of them carry a lot of dairy breeds. Not all do it though!
Lanaud and Sersia etc find the truth pretty fast though.

GiantPencil · 10-06-2016 04:46PM

whelan2 wrote: »

I remember showing cattle years ago,the amount of crap that was going on. Calves not registered for months after being born. Feeding turkey meal to them etc. Most judges knew what was going on and reflected that in the prize giving. The best thing I think is to buy a bull in the breeders yard. That way you can look at the dam and other stock and it will give you a good idea of how the bull will turn out. As for buying a bull and keeping him for 3-6 months before using him , most lads let the bull straight in with stock. Will icbf be naming and shaming the lads using false information?

You could nearly have the cowboy stuff that goes on at shows as another topic altogether, I can remember one instance where I saw a fella have a heifer as a Senior heifer at one show and she was a junior heifer a few weeks later under a different name! All because she wasn't getting on great as a senior heifer. The lengths people will go to.....

Canaryblue · 10-06-2016 05:06PM

Everyone knows its going on, but hopefully now it'll cause buyers to move away from the show ring and shop a little smarter.

Think blame should also be pointed at the breed societies and Ai companies. An example the old fella loves to give is that Major (whom the charolais society were distributing straws of) had a calving difficulty of 14% at 96% reliability (April 2012) then suddenly it dropped to 11.6% at 97% reliability (August 2012) then down to 10% at 96% reliability (December 2012) and is now at 9.2% at 98% reliability, there's wrong there. *Edit after checking Majors calving difficulty was 18.4% at 93% reliability in April 2010

I remember when we first joined the Gene Ireland program, the representative that came down to us told us that they didn't want show breeders joining the program. Hopefully now they kick out the breeders who didn't report the c-sections in order to save their own credibility.

Miname · 10-06-2016 06:11PM

Where's the top money in cattle? The showy type, when the truth is out you want a profitable nice looking animal. If these are wanted il try to breed them , no one can say here honestly that they don't , when that nice heifer comes in everyone wants her and the silly money starts. We need lads to show just like we need the icbf, they may not do everything as we agree but they do create an interest. Would there be many lads going to these shows to look at plain animals.

Canaryblue · 10-06-2016 06:16PM

Miname wrote: »

Where's the top money in cattle? The showy type, when the truth is out you want a profitable nice looking animal. If these are wanted il try to breed them , no one can say here honestly that they don't , when that nice heifer comes in everyone wants her and the silly money starts. We need lads to show just like we need the icbf, they may not do everything as we agree but they do create an interest. Would there be many lads going to these shows to look at plain animals.

You started off making one point and finished on another, are you saying shows are for the better of the national herd or are you saying they're good because they're a social occasion? I'm all for a balance between looks and substance but I think some pedigree breeders have completely lost sight of what a profitable commercial animal is.

Bellview · 10-06-2016 06:38PM

How many bulls did the ai and icbf buy from the folks found telling tales... I bet there are some in the studs..

whelan2 · 10-06-2016 07:02PM

Bellview wrote: »

How many bulls did the ai and icbf buy from the folks found telling tales... I bet there are some in the studs..

Remember when we had bulls in Tully I was amazed how few top breeders had anything in there

Lano Lynn · 10-06-2016 08:23PM

we have the same sh!te in the sheep world
they don't have customers they have victims

these are the very same 'top' breeders who will complain about EBV's ruining 'the breed'

there are far to many c-sections having to be done .(imo two sections=supermacs)
all sections should have to be notified to dept,beef ireland or what ever they are called now. a simple app would cost shag all done in seconds.

vets would not like this they have a great earner out of the show cattle buisness.

all pedigree registrations should have to be accompanied with the ai docket

and a lot more inspections carried out on the whole herd

the amount of effort put into pressuring commercial buyers to use high index stock is a waste of time and money that should be focused on the pedigree breeders the culling out of the defective stock

Miname · 10-06-2016 08:49PM

Canaryblue wrote: »

You started off making one point and finished on another, are you saying shows are for the better of the national herd or are you saying they're good because they're a social occasion? I'm all for a balance between looks and substance but I think some pedigree breeders have completely lost sight of what a profitable commercial animal is.

I'm saying there good for both and getting people interested. How many lads on here started breeding a cow or two hoping to breed something fit for shows, as soon as farming becomes a pure business then we're all doomed for a dull factory type life breeding Angus for Larry. We need diversity in breeding and can't be all breeding plain cattle that seem to be the safe bet.

Miname · 10-06-2016 09:03PM

It's the show breeders who take the gambles with breeding and it's their cattle that set the new bar every year. To go out and make out all breeders are rogues is pure bull sh1t. Sections will happen in the best managed herds, should a breached birth section wipe that breeders bloodlines out? The icbf want to blame inaccurate records back on breeders. They don't deal with the clown that puts a ch bull on a 380 kg blue heifer they don't thread through the crap I putted by farmers who are too lazy to walk around their field and actually fill in the data based on each animal rather than put most of their cows down as having loads of milk a class calf and the most placid animal out there. If your breeding top bloodlines you need to make that calf shine to pay its way, are we supposed to go down the route of telling breeders you can use x amount of meal x amount of dosing and x amount of months on the cow. If you can't spot a stuffed bull you shouldn't be allowed breed an animal. I find these sort of problems have always got a scape goat to blame.

Lano Lynn · 10-06-2016 09:36PM

there will always be need for some sections but it is a simple fact that the percentage of sections has increased rapidly in the last 20-30 years ,they have become routine on some farms.if the top bloodlines persistently require sections the they are NOT the top bloodlines

we need cattle and sheep that breed naturally,give birth naturally,convert cellulose to protien and make profit for their owners.

the rogues are feckin the job up for the honest genuine breeders and commercial farmers

Hurling Hereford · 10-06-2016 09:56PM

MeheeHohee wrote: »

The below is an interesting article taken from this week's Farmers Journal. Interesting read, undeclared cesareans and use of freisans for double sucking seems to be rife. Just wondering other lad thoughts, was this well known?

Suckler farmers are being misled by some pedigree breeders on the quality of bulls.
Misleading data on pedigree bulls is costing suckler farmers up to €10m every year.

This is the finding of an investigation into bull performance by the Irish Farmers Journal. Some breeders are manipulating data on the key maternal traits of calving difficulty.

Inspections under the Gene Ireland beef breeding programme identified 136 pedigree cows on which C-sections were carried out. But over half of these C-sections were not declared by the breeding herd owners.

Further, in a quarter of these cases, the breeder claimed that the calving was “unassisted”.

Worryingly, the breeders within this elite programme are considered to be the country’s most progressive.

We can also reveal that more than 500 pedigree herds have between one and five dairy-bred cows on the farm. That can facilitate the cross-fostering of pedigree calves on to cows with higher milk yields, improving the calves’ growth rates, thereby boosting the milk yield figures of the direct bloodlines. Suckler farmers are willing to pay more for bulls whose daughters will have plentiful milk.

The IFJ investigation – based on analysis of ICBF data – has also found serious deficiencies in the fertility, functionality and management of bulls bought by commercial suckler farms. Thus:

Some 10% of bulls sold by pedigree breeders to commercial suckler farmers never produce a calf.
Another 6% produce no more than 10 calves before being culled.
Just 60% of bulls bought by commercial suckler farmers produce more than 50 calves over the course of their lifetime.
Suckler farmers buy approximately 15,000 pedigree bulls every year at an average price of €3,000, a total annual investment of €45m. The estimated financial loss is incurred as a result of bulls producing no or few calves; disruption to the calving pattern after culling of a bull; more calving difficulties than expected and daughters with lower than expected milk supply

A buddy of mine who works with the ICBF said both they and the Department are seething with rage over the article in The Journal. He maintains that The Journal have 'ruined' the BDGP

Kovu · 10-06-2016 10:03PM

Hurling Hereford wrote: »

A buddy of mine who works with the ICBF said both they and the Department are seething with rage over the article in The Journal. He maintains that The Journal have 'ruined' the BDGP

I think the farmers are managing that fairly well themselves :pac:
Just on c-sections, would making it compulsory for a vet to report them to the department have any effect?

Miname · 10-06-2016 10:04PM

Hurling Hereford wrote: »

A buddy of mine who works with the ICBF said both they and the Department are seething with rage over the article in The Journal. He maintains that The Journal have 'ruined' the BDGP

Can't blame them either for being pissed. Automatically all breeders are crooks and they've just given the excuse " if they can get away with it,why can't I." The breeders are the ones gambling on having the next big bloodline it's up to the ai and icbf as well to set themselves up properly in a system that is fully utilisable not just what they tell us we what we want or need.

Hurling Hereford · 10-06-2016 10:08PM

Kovu wrote: »

I think the farmers are managing that fairly well themselves :pac:
Just on c-sections, would making it compulsory for a vet to report them to the department have any effect?

What vet would report farmers to the Department for performing C-Sections though?

Kovu · 10-06-2016 10:11PM

Hurling Hereford wrote: »

What vet would report farmers to the Department for performing C-Sections though?

I don't mean report them in a bad way, but to have a list of all c-sections carried out in the country? You know the way cows that abort are reported to the Dept & have a blood test carried out, something similar to that but without the need for any follow up by the dept.

Hurling Hereford · 10-06-2016 10:20PM

Kovu wrote: »

I don't mean report them in a bad way, but to have a list of all c-sections carried out in the country? You know the way cows that abort are reported to the Dept & have a blood test carried out, something similar to that but without the need for any follow up by the dept.

The Department ALWAYS follow up!

Canaryblue · 10-06-2016 10:20PM

Miname I must say as a fellow pedigree breeder I find your comments very disappointing. To suggest only show breeders take 'gambles with breeding' is ridiculous and disrespectful to a lot of breeders.

Miname · 10-06-2016 10:26PM

Canaryblue wrote: »

Miname I must say as a fellow pedigree breeder I find your comments very disappointing. To suggest only show breeders take 'gambles with breeding' is ridiculous and disrespectful to a lot of breeders.

I'm not saying only show breeders take gambles I'm saying show breeders usually take the biggest gambles. Sometimes it works sometimes it doesn't . If your disappointed there's not much I'm going to say to cheer you up.

Canaryblue · 10-06-2016 10:29PM

Twas more directed so that people don't think all pedigree breeders have the same mindset as yourself!

Useless pedigree bulls cost farmers millions

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