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Trans people in UK could face rape charges if they don't reveal gender history

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Comments

  • #32
    Junkyard Tom
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,115 ✭✭✭✭Junkyard Tom


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x3BY72RF8vc


  • #33
    wakka12
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,786 ✭✭✭wakka12


    Galwayguy35 wrote: »
    A lot of them would still look like men anyway so it wouldn't be that hard to tell, but for the pre op ones who could pass off as a woman they should tell someone that they are thinking of having sex with the truth before the clothes come off and he sees what's down south.

    Yeah cause nobody would touch those manly looking trans women anyway am I right


  • #34
    osarusan
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,895 ✭✭✭✭osarusan


    Hmmm...this 'rape by deception' is very very dodgy ground indeed in terms of what would need to be disclosed and what constitutes deception.

    Who decides what needs to be disclosed and what doesn't need to be disclosed?

    Is there a difference between non-disclosure and non-disclosure through pretense?


  • #35
    Galwayguy35
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,403 ✭✭✭✭Galwayguy35


    wakka12 wrote: »
    Yeah cause nobody would touch those manly looking trans women anyway am I right

    No idea what yours or anyone elses sexual preferences are, just know what mine are.

    No need to sound so outraged at my opinion on the subject.


  • #36
    wakka12
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,786 ✭✭✭wakka12


    Galwayguy35 wrote: »
    No idea what yours or anyone elses sexual preferences are, just know what mine are.

    No need to sound so outraged at my opinion on the subject.

    Because you're setting up different standards for trans women depending on how they look? Does that not seem a bit ridiculous? You say trans women who look masculine don't need to disclose because we can all tell, but trans women who pass as women need to because they can't go around deceiving people.

    The only reason I find this annoying is because men who sleep with trans women don't mind until they find out the woman is trans. Why is such a big deal if you didnt even mind sleeping with her in the first place? I hate throwing out the 'isms' and 'phobic' terms will nilly but I really think that is a case of transphobia.


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  • #37
    Galwayguy35
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,403 ✭✭✭✭Galwayguy35


    wakka12 wrote: »
    Because you're setting up different standards for trans women depending on how they look? Does that not seem a bit ridiculous? You say trans women who look masculine don't need to disclose because we can all tell, but trans women who pass as women need to because they can't go around deceiving people.

    The only reason I find this annoying is because men who sleep with trans women don't mind until they find out the woman is trans. Why is such a big deal if you didnt even mind sleeping with her in the first place? I hate throwing out the 'isms' and 'phobic' terms will nilly but I really think that is a case of transphobia.

    I wouldn't be one bit happy if I had sex with someone I assumed was a woman and then was told otherwise, obviously I'm talking post op in this scenario.

    I don't see why I should feel like I'm wrong for thinking this.


  • #38
    Barry Badrinath
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,460 ✭✭✭Barry Badrinath


    wakka12 wrote: »
    The only reason I find this annoying is because men who sleep with trans women don't mind until they find out the woman is trans. Why is such a big deal if you didnt even mind sleeping with her in the first place? I hate throwing out the 'isms' and 'phobic' terms will nilly but I really think that is a case of transphobia.

    I am not educated enough on transgender issues or sexual reassignment surgery to argue either way about the article.

    Personally, I would prefer to sleep with a biological woman, not a man who consciously identified and successfully transitioned into a woman.

    It is my preference and I should not be labelled as any type of "phobe" as a result of that.


  • #39
    unseenfootage
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 976 ✭✭✭unseenfootage


    wakka12 wrote: »
    Because you're setting up different standards for trans women depending on how they look? Does that not seem a bit ridiculous? You say trans women who look masculine don't need to disclose because we can all tell, but trans women who pass as women need to because they can't go around deceiving people.

    The only reason I find this annoying is because men who sleep with trans women don't mind until they find out the woman is trans. Why is such a big deal if you didnt even mind sleeping with her in the first place? I hate throwing out the 'isms' and 'phobic' terms will nilly but I really think that is a case of transphobia.

    No matter how feminine a trans woman looks, "she" is not the same as a woman.


  • #40
    Samaris
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,544 ✭✭✭Samaris


    Wouldn't bother me. If I was attracted enough to him (in my case) to want to sleep with him, I wouldn't suddenly start seeing him as a woman who tricked me. And I certainly wouldn't take it out on them if I wasn't weirded by it. A trans person (more especially male-to-female, it seems) puts themselves in a hugely vulnerable position, emotionally and often physically by admitting it. They've almost certainly been really worrying about how I would take it. It might take a bit of mental adjustment, but no more so, for me, than finding out they're bi and/or have slept with men.


  • #41
    qo2cj1dsne8y4k
    Closed Accounts Posts: 23,646 ✭✭✭✭qo2cj1dsne8y4k


    I don't care what anyone does as long as it doesn't impact me.
    I would absolutely 100% need to know the original gender of someone I was intimate with. People have the right to do whatever they like to their bodies but I have the right to know who I'm letting near my body too. It's not all about trans rights, the rest of us have rights too.


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  • #42
    ceadaoin.
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,716 ✭✭✭ceadaoin.


    I don't know about it being rape but it's morally wrong not to disclose IMO. I could understand not doing it for a one night stand where you will never see the person again but for a relationship, let the person make their own choice after knowing all the facts, for both partners sakes.

    People have the right to refuse sex for whatever reason they want. Trying to label them bigots for doing so is tantamount to coercion IMO.


  • #43
    Samaris
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,544 ✭✭✭Samaris


    I agree that it would be the morally honest thing to do - to have that conversation beforehand, that is - but I do think waving "rape" anywhere near it is the nuclear option. It's just not the right term and it cheapens the word.


  • #44
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 25,909 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    A guy in Israel was convicted of rape for pretending to be Jewish to get his hole. I've read certain *ahem* activists the last few years say that misleading someone to get into their pants should be seen as not allowing consent to be possible. Someone having had different genitals would annoy me a lot more than finding out the car they're driving is a hire or that they actually don't go to Mass every week.


  • #45
    pragmatic1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,573 ✭✭✭pragmatic1


    Rape charges is very harsh. However, on the other hand if someone genuinely didn't know and weren't told beforehand, it could mess up their head big time. It would be a very ****ty thing to do to someone.


  • #46
    markupmales
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 51 ✭✭markupmales


    If I get laid by *pretending to be loaded and cool is that rape too?

    * Hypothetical. I am, of course, really loaded and cool.


  • #47
    Grayditch
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,347 ✭✭✭✭Grayditch


    Do I think people have the right to know? Sure.
    Do I think it's rape if they don't disclose it? No.


  • #48
    Two Tone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 513 ✭✭✭Two Tone


    Hetero woman myself and wouldn't care about a man who used to be a woman, but I can understand others caring about this, and maybe I wouldn't be comfortable if I were a man and with a woman who I find out used to be a man.


  • #49
    drunkmonkey
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 28,195 ✭✭✭✭drunkmonkey


    Grayditch wrote: »
    Do I think people have the right to know? Sure.
    Do I think it's rape if they don't disclose it? No.

    It's something though and could have a profound effect on the victims up there with sexual assault/abuse/rape.

    None of them are pretty words.

    If we called it trans rape they'd be saying their being discriminated against, easier call it rape so prople realise how serious a thing it is to decieve someone in such a way sexually.
    Whatever word they use it shouldn't be something nice and fluffy just to keep trans people happy, it's a serious deception.

    This is about victims of sexual crimes not about transgender rights.


  • #50
    Mr. CooL ICE
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,871 ✭✭✭✭Mr. CooL ICE


    It's dishonest, but it shouldn't be considered rape. If anything, it trivialises rape.


  • #51
    drunkmonkey
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 28,195 ✭✭✭✭drunkmonkey


    Nicolas Cage wrote: »
    it trivialises rape.

    How so? Calling it dishonest trivialises the crime.


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  • #52
    markupmales
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 51 ✭✭markupmales


    drunkmonkey wrote: »
    It's something though and could have a profound effect on the victims up there with sexual assault/abuse/rape.
    Er, no. Not even close.
    Do you reckon people don't know they're being raped until the find out afterwards and then they get upset?


  • #53
    Grayditch
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,347 ✭✭✭✭Grayditch


    drunkmonkey wrote: »
    it's a serious deception.

    I agree, it is. Not Sure how serious I would class it, but that's not for me to say in this case, It's going to be different for everyone.
    drunkmonkey wrote: »
    This is about victims of sexual crimes

    I don't agree with this though. I don't think it's a case of sexual abuse. Legal matter? So be it if people want to try prove it had a profoundly negative effect on their lives, but I don't think they have a case for using "rape" as an argument theirin, and I understand rape has different forms but. I just don't think this is one.


  • #54
    drunkmonkey
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 28,195 ✭✭✭✭drunkmonkey


    It is a crime of some sort though, I've never been chatted up by a trans person but I'd presume anyone half responsible would let who there chatting with know if it looks like things are going to progress still when drink and drugs are involved and if 2 people get going not much will stand in their way., but then on the flip side they feel, look and have identification to say they are women. Why should they disclose or get in trouble for not saying there men when the law of the land says there not anymore.

    Not sure if the correct answer will be solved in our life time.


  • #55
    Grayditch
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,347 ✭✭✭✭Grayditch


    It came up in Horace And Pete, actually. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KHrXtzYC0Jc


  • #56
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 14,242 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Michah wrote: »
    This may be an unpopular opinion but I personally would feel violated if I discovered a sexual partner was not forthcoming about their original gender.

    I don't think rape is necessarily the right label for it but people certainly have a right to know.
    This is a case of a trans activist going out and searching for a reason to be offended, when there is absolutely no indication from the Crown Prosecution Service that they ever intend to charge a person with rape in circumstances where they fail to disclose their previous gender.

    Read the article.

    The only people making this claim are those involved in trans activism, and providing no legal basis for it.

    There are plenty of serious challenges facing the trans community, but I don't believe this is one.

    To be honest, it sounds like sensationalism, and/or attention-seeking.


  • #57
    Annasopra
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,232 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    Samaris wrote: »
    I agree that it would be the morally honest thing to do - to have that conversation beforehand, that is - but I do think waving "rape" anywhere near it is the nuclear option. It's just not the right term and it cheapens the word.

    agreed and legally forcing trans people to out themselves is a very dangerous act in my opinion

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • #58
    drunkmonkey
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 28,195 ✭✭✭✭drunkmonkey


    Joeytheparrot wrote: »
    agreed and legally forcing trans people to out themselves is a very dangerous act in my opinion

    Isn't it dangerous both ways though, safer if everyone knows beforehand could get messy afterwards.

    It's about honesty, if you think someone is a girl/boy you should point out that there's a bit of grey area after maybe after the first small kiss.


  • #59
    Annasopra
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,232 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    drunkmonkey wrote: »
    Isn't it dangerous both ways though, safer if everyone knows beforehand could get messy afterwards.

    It's about honesty, if you think someone is a girl/boy you should point out that there's a bit of grey area after maybe after the first small kiss.

    Yes

    For trans people they can be scared of disclosing (because of potential violence, social reactions etc) and scared of non disclosing (because of potential violence, social reactions etc) but forcing them to out themselves is putting them in danger.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



  • #60
    Stigura
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,659 ✭✭✭Stigura


    http://facedl.com/fvideo=awenwuxnueuuk

    ;)


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  • #61
    Grayditch
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,347 ✭✭✭✭Grayditch


    Actually, I just realised forcing people from a legal standpoint to reveal, might have some standing in two situations...

    One is Religion. Some churches won't allow it, despite how you define the person you slept with. It's also law in some countries, but that won't apply to here.

    Secondly and more importantly, you can't donate blood if you are a man and have ever slept with a man (as defined by the blood donor, I would presume this could include trans people, I personally wouldn't, but I don't know, maybe someone could clear this up). Taking away someone's ability to give blood and honestly, is wrong, I guess. Especially people with rare blood types who donate regularly. Something to think about. Maybe a change in the clinics is in order.

    It's extremely complex.


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