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Eircode - its implemetation (merged)

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Comments

  • #1292
    gctest50
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,597 ✭✭✭gctest50


    plodder wrote: »
    It was 4,500. So, that would cost £180. It would be more economic to just buy a few maps and spend some hours looking up addresses and pin pointing them on the maps. So, eircode wouldn't be much use in this situation imo.

    How many hours do think that'll take then ?

    There's a diddlyeye dance at the crossroads n stuff this evening etc


  • #1293
    gctest50
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,597 ✭✭✭gctest50


    Carawaystick wrote: »
    ~Another defect is the delay in getting an eircode for new builds.
    They should be allocated on grant of pp, to allow deliveries of construction materiel.
    Having a postcode and only using it for letters is silly.

    They should be allocated when pp is applied for, it'd make it easy to tag the site as the process goes along


  • #1294
    12Phase
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,040 ✭✭✭12Phase


    gctest50 wrote: »
    How many hours do think that'll take then ?

    There's a diddlyeye dance at the crossroads n stuff this evening etc

    No, most likely they simply won't bother doing anything as they probably won't see the point and the costs are prohibitive.


  • #1295
    plodder
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,759 ✭✭✭plodder


    12Phase wrote: »
    Plodder, while the phone number would give you a unique ID, beyond the actual area code, the local number's first few digits no longer mean much as numbers are just assigned to end points almost like the way URLs are ultimately pointing towards an IP address and that can be changed depending on how the DNS database is setup.

    In older technology, the number was actually used directly to route the call as the network had little intelligence. That hasn't been the case for a long time. If you are on any provider that isn't using OpenEir exchanges, you could have any number in any given area code.

    When you dial a number, the exchange actually performs a look up equivalent to what a browser does with a DNS server to figure out how to route the call.

    Also, the % of households with active voice landlines is shrinking every day.
    I know that, but it is still the case that the vast majority of landline numbers correlate with the old routing system for the telephone network. Over time it will increasingly become less true I accept. I think for the purposes of this discussion - that there are any number of things that the parents group would do, before they would dream of spending money on eircode lookups, it is valid.


  • #1296
    plodder
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,759 ✭✭✭plodder


    ukoda wrote: »
    You've missed the point. I said they CAN do it. Which you said they couldn't, and you were wrong.

    It's up to them what they WANT to do.
    No, you've missed the point. The point was this is a good example of where postcodes could have been useful, but eircode is impractical, not that it cannot be used.
    No one has to licence a product to locate a postcodes location.
    I think you'll find that you have to agree to certain terms and conditions before you can do 4,500 lookups, as well as paying over 200 euro.


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  • #1297
    ukoda
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,084 ✭✭✭ukoda


    plodder wrote: »
    No, you've missed the point. The point was this is a good example of where postcodes could have been useful, but eircode is impractical, not that it cannot be used.

    By your own words the impractical part is the work they've have to do after they got the postcode data. Even if it was free. Someone would have to sit down and plot it all out and do all that work. Yet another example of you trying to attribute an issue to eircode that doesn't fly.

    You will really go to extraordinary lengths to find problems with eircode that don't actually exist


  • #1298
    Sam Russell
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 20,358 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    gctest50 wrote: »
    They're routing
    Switzerland = about 15000 sq miles

    Switzerland has a population of over 8 million - that is twice our population.

    They are quite good at infrastructure and their trains run on time as do their buses.


  • #1299
    plodder
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,759 ✭✭✭plodder


    ukoda wrote: »
    By your own words the impractical part is the work they've have to do after they got the postcode data. Even if it was free. Someone would have to sit down and plot it all out and do all that work. Yet another example of you trying to attribute an issue to eircode that doesn't fly.
    You don't have to plot anything. You just put them all in a spreadsheet, sort them and count the number of codes in each area. Anyone who knows spreadsheets could do it.

    Even if they paid the money to get the SACs out of ECAD, they would have to do this anyway.


  • #1300
    Sam Russell
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 20,358 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    gctest50 wrote: »
    They're routing codes, doesn't matter, put magic Eircode into magic website and it'll show you where it is

    That is a nonsense argument. The Eircode (or rather the postcode system) was to be designed as a neutral design - not favouring one supplier. And here we go - it is designed to favour An Post (who did not want it and said they would not use it). They could have used 2,000 routing codes matching their existing postal towns (- they just chose to use only main postal towns outside of Dublin) which would be much larger than SACs but useful for other uses, without having to bother with decoding the random bit.
    Your neighbours mobile phone number probably bears no relationship to yours.
    If you don't have your neighbours mobile phone number, you'll have fun trying to call him on it.

    What has that got to do with postcodes?

    His landline number would be useful because that is a location based system. In fact the first five digits of any landline number give a better indication of location than an Eircode - assuming it is based on Telecom's STD system from the nineties.


  • #1301
    ukoda
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,084 ✭✭✭ukoda


    plodder wrote: »
    You don't have to plot anything. You just put them all in a spreadsheet, sort them and count the number of codes in each area. Anyone who knows spreadsheets could do it.

    Even if they paid the money to get the SACs out of ECAD, they would have to do this anyway.

    So it's the same amount of work either way? A while ago you were off on a rant about them having to write software. At least it's dawned on you now that they wouldn't have to do that, just a simple sort by whatever field they wanted.

    So we're back to the issue you started with, "they wouldn't be able to get access to a licence" which you were wrong about.

    So what's you point now? The entire the process is too impractical and I'm stupid for saying it could be done?

    Or the process is the same but you thought they couldn't get a licence and now you realise they don't need one?

    Are you going to go back to talk about the cost now?


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  • #1302
    gctest50
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,597 ✭✭✭gctest50


    Sam Russell wrote: »
    That is a nonsense argument. ......
    .

    No, it's not, put magic Eircode into magic website and it'll show you where it is


  • #1303
    plodder
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,759 ✭✭✭plodder


    ukoda wrote: »
    So it's the same amount of work either way? A while ago you were off on a rant about them having to write software. At least it's dawned on you now that they wouldn't have to do that, just a simple sort by whatever field they wanted.
    The companies that you mentioned earlier offer APIs. That means you need to obtain software that uses those APIs (as well as pay the money).
    So we're back to the issue you started with, "they wouldn't be able to get access to a licence" which you were wrong about.

    So what's you point now? The entire the process is too impractical and I'm stupid for saying it could be done?

    Or the process is the same but you thought they couldn't get a licence and now you realise they don't need one?

    Are you going to go back to talk about the cost now?
    You're wrong. They do need a license. When you click on the T&Cs of a website you are agreeing to a license. They need a license. They need additional software (beyond a spreadsheet) and most importantly they need to pay over 200 euros. With the UK postcode they could do it for free, and I would guess every other postcode in the world that doesn't use a hidden random code which needs to be decoded with a licensed product.

    This is like the time you said SUSI had to be saving two hours work for each application by using Eircode and it turned out to be 2 minutes. You're not fooling anyone and I am tired of this conversation (for now). Have the last word if you wish.


  • #1304
    ukoda
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,084 ✭✭✭ukoda


    plodder wrote: »
    The companies that you mentioned earlier offer APIs. That means you need to obtain software that uses those APIs (as well as pay the money).

    You're wrong. They do need a license. When you click on the T&Cs of a website you are agreeing to a license. They need a license. They need additional software (beyond a spreadsheet) and most importantly they need to pay over 200 euros. With the UK postcode they could do it for free, and I would guess every other postcode in the world that doesn't use a hidden random code which needs to be decoded with a licensed product.

    This is like the time you said SUSI had to be saving two hours work for each application by using Eircode and it turned out to be 2 minutes. You're not fooling anyone and I am tired of this conversation (for now). Have the last word if you wish.


    They can just get the data back without any API's or anything. The API is only there if needed

    You said they couldn't get a licence, you were wrong, also implying they would have to licence from eircode. Now you agree you were wrong but now you move your complaint to the fact that they have to agree to terms and conditions from the resellers website? That tick box we all do all the time is now the thing you want to complain about? Seriously?

    SUSI published the claim not me, I agreed with it and I wasn't wrong about it. The claim of savings is valid. You just couldn't understand it and declared it wrong.


  • #1305
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,849 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    plodder wrote: »
    I'm not saying everyone should be able to use it at no cost.
    plodder wrote: »
    ...most importantly they need to pay over 200 euros. With the UK postcode they could do it for free...

    I wish you'd make up your mind.


  • #1306
    gctest50
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,597 ✭✭✭gctest50


    plodder wrote: »
    .........
    This is like the time you said SUSI had to be saving two hours work for each application by using Eircode and it turned out to be 2 minutes. You're not fooling anyone and I am tired of this conversation (for now). Have the last word if you wish.

    2 minutes x about 80,000 times = more or less 2,500 hours saved


  • #1307
    plodder
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,759 ✭✭✭plodder


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    I wish you'd make up your mind.
    I wish you would contribute something of substance to the discussion.
    gctest50 wrote:
    2 minutes x about 80,000 times = more or less 2,500 hours saved
    Correct ... and your point is?


  • #1308
    gctest50
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,597 ✭✭✭gctest50


    plodder wrote: »
    I wish you would contribute something of substance to the discussion.


    Correct ... and your point is?

    2,500 hours is a huge saving, and this year they were still using googlemaps

    Huge savings (maybe next year ?) when they can bypass that part


  • #1309
    plodder
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,759 ✭✭✭plodder


    gctest50 wrote: »
    2,500 hours is a huge saving, and this year they were still using googlemaps

    Huge savings (maybe next year ?) when they can bypass that part
    It is a big saving, and it's typical of this forum (and some posters) that we got bogged down in an argument over something that was impossible, and was a simple mistake in a report, and ended up casting doubt over the whole thing. But, there you go.


  • #1310
    ukoda
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,084 ✭✭✭ukoda


    plodder wrote: »
    It is a big saving, and it's typical of this forum (and some posters) that we got bogged down in an argument over something that was impossible, and was a simple mistake in a report, and ended up casting doubt over the whole thing. But, there you go.

    Another example is people making claims that certain groups wouldn't be able to access eircode data because they wouldn't be able to get a licence.


  • #1311
    plodder
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,759 ✭✭✭plodder


    On the off chance that these comments really weren't understood.

    I'm not saying everyone should be able to use it at no cost. =

    There should be some datasets that are free of charge (eg one that contains each Eircode, and the small area code for each). Other datasets like the ECAF and ECAD should remain pay for use.

    ...most importantly they need to pay over 200 euros. With the UK postcode they could do it for free... =

    This is the kind of usage that should accommodated free of charge because people can extract that information from postcodes in other countries at no cost.

    There is no inconsistency between the two statements in bold.

    I hope that clears up any misunderstanding. Thank you for your attention!


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  • #1312
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,849 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    plodder wrote: »
    On the off chance that these comments really weren't understood.

    I'm not saying everyone should be able to use it at no cost. =

    There should be some datasets that are free of charge (eg one that contains each Eircode, and the small area code for each). Other datasets like the ECAF and ECAD should remain pay for use.

    ...most importantly they need to pay over 200 euros. With the UK postcode they could do it for free... =

    This is the kind of usage that should accommodated free of charge because people can extract that information from postcodes in other countries at no cost.

    There is no inconsistency between the two statements in bold.

    I hope that clears up any misunderstanding. Thank you for your attention!

    That's somewhat clearer, thanks. Would you accept that what you've described is not an inherent flaw in the design of Eircodes, but a limitation of the current licensing model? Accordingly, would you accept that remarks like "there is literally no benefit in using it" and "tits on a bull" are objectively untrue, factually inaccurate, and contribute nothing of substance to the discussion?


  • #1313
    ukoda
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,084 ✭✭✭ukoda


    https://twitter.com/autoaddress/status/741257566156644352


  • #1314
    plodder
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,759 ✭✭✭plodder


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    That's somewhat clearer, thanks. Would you accept that what you've described is not an inherent flaw in the design of Eircodes, but a limitation of the current licensing model?
    Can you really separate the licensing/business model from the technical design? If you can, then maybe I would agree.
    Accordingly, would you accept that remarks like "there is literally no benefit in using it" and "tits on a bull" are objectively untrue, factually inaccurate, and contribute nothing of substance to the discussion?
    Perhaps, but I really think these are off the cuff remarks not intended to be taken literally.


  • #1315
    ukoda
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,084 ✭✭✭ukoda


    plodder wrote: »
    Can you really separate the licensing/business model from the technical design?.

    Yes. They could make eircode licence free tomorrow because the technical design does not require it to have a licence. youve made this point yourself numerous times. They could release the codes and geo's for free. They could even release the entire ECAD for free if they wanted. Nothing in the technical design of eircode would prevent that.


  • #1316
    clewbays
    Closed Accounts Posts: 148 ✭✭clewbays


    ukoda wrote: »
    They could release the codes and geo's for free. They could even release the entire ECAD for free if they wanted. Nothing in the technical design of eircode would prevent that.

    I expect the licensing agreement with GeoDirectory would prevent that otherwise there would no revenue stream for An Post and OSi from GeoDirectory.


  • #1317
    ukoda
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,084 ✭✭✭ukoda


    clewbays wrote: »
    I expect the licensing agreement with GeoDirectory would prevent that otherwise there would no revenue stream for An Post and OSi from GeoDirectory.

    That's not the technical design limiting release. That's a choice to use the geo directory for the address data.

    His question was can you separate the *technical* design from the licensing / business model. And the answer is yes.

    You could swap out the addresses in the ECAD for another address database. Nothing in the technical design of the code would need to change.


  • #1318
    clewbays
    Closed Accounts Posts: 148 ✭✭clewbays


    HelgaWard wrote: »
    Using Eircodes constantly at work and have to say they are very useful.

    Can you say more about how they are used in your workplace?


  • #1319
    plodder
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,759 ✭✭✭plodder


    ukoda wrote: »
    Yes. They could make eircode licence free tomorrow because the technical design does not require it to have a licence. youve made this point yourself numerous times. They could release the codes and geo's for free. They could even release the entire ECAD for free if they wanted. Nothing in the technical design of eircode would prevent that.
    Except for the small problem that Eircode is dependent on Geodirectory and their license with geodirectory doesn't allow that. If they can solve that problem then yes, they could make it license free.

    This is why a lot of these projects which in reality span multiple state agencies fail, because they need a level of political engagement to bang heads together, which doesn't happen.


  • #1320
    ukoda
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,084 ✭✭✭ukoda


    plodder wrote: »
    Except for the small problem that Eircode is dependent on Geodirectory and their license with geodirectory doesn't allow that. If they can solve that problem then yes, they could make it license free.

    This is why a lot of these projects which in reality span multiple state agencies fail, because they need a level of political engagement to bang heads together, which doesn't happen.

    Read my post again, I added to it. The technical design of eircode does not require geo directory. It could swap out the addresses data from another source, no technical change to the code.

    Would also add to this. The licence with geodirectory doesn't prevent eircode releasing the data for free. As long as geodirectory gets it licence fee of approx 900k a year it doesn't give a damn what eircode do with the data. And as you've advocated before, the state could cover the cost of that fee to geodirectory and we could all pay for it in our tax and eircode could be 'free' to use. Again no technical change to the code required.


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  • #1321
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,849 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    plodder wrote: »
    Perhaps, but I really think these are off the cuff remarks not intended to be taken literally.

    Well, when the people who made those remarks think of something intelligent or factual to say, perhaps then we should start listening to them.


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