Why are our judges so soft?

01-06-2016 05:57AM #1

This morning, another tale from our soft out-of -touch judges.

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/man-who-tore-out-exgirlfriends-hair-in-front-of-their-child-gets-suspended-sentence-34762031.html

"After they drove a short distance he began punching her repeatedly to the back of the head. He was also dragging her head back and forth and tearing out clumps of her hair.
He said he would kill her and she believed him. The woman later said she was scared for her life but more concerned about the safety of their infant child.
She managed to get out of the car and flag down a passing motorist who took her and the child to Rathmines Garda Station. When gardaí saw her she had a swollen and bloody face and was holding clumps of her own hair in her hands."

Outcome: Suspended sentence because judge said defendant, who had minor previous offences "would have a difficult time in prison due to his lack of English."

Suspended sentences are a joke to violent offenders. The girl must be living in fear.

Raised Eyebrow · 01-06-2016 06:16AM

This is from the same judge who handed down a 6 year jail term for the VAT on garlic charge

FAILSAFE 00 · 01-06-2016 06:24AM

More money to be made from the gravy train. They want him to get 300 convictions first to get every penny they can in legal aid money for their pals in the industry.

AlekSmart · 01-06-2016 06:26AM

Raised Eyebrow wrote: »

This is from the same judge who handed down a 6 year jail term for the VAT on garlic charge

Judges are bound by the sentencing norms established by the Supreme Court and latterly,The Court Of Appeal.
Target the members of these Courts for influence,and you will at least be aiming in the correct direction,but be aware that these Judges exist on a totally different plane to every other citizen,as they constantly scan the European and United Nations horizon for future prospects of advancements,all of which influences their stances on anything which could be regarded as harsh,punitory or populist.....being caring,understanding and forgiving is the most important element...Justice,Punishment & Retribution are not at the races !

Vic_08 · 01-06-2016 06:27AM

Mod- Slander, slander everywhere.

01-06-2016 06:30AM

AlekSmart wrote: »

Judges are bound by the sentencing norms established by the Supreme Court and latterly,The Court Of Appeal.
Target the members of these Courts for influence,and you will at least be aiming in the correct direction,but be aware that these Judges exist on a totally different plane to every other citizen,as they constantly scan the European and United Nations horizon for future prospects of advancements,all of which influences their stances on anything which could be regarded as harsh,punitory or populist.....being caring,understanding and forgiving is the most important element...Justice,Punishment & Retribution are not at the races !

Where do people get this nonsense?

Does anyone actually think that your average Judge in the District or Circuit Court is scanning the UN for jobs?

I know a few Judges and they'd get a good laugh out of this. How do people actually think up this stuff?

01-06-2016 07:13AM

Indeed, most of these guys are 'end of career' stage anyway, but do they actually believe that these violent thugs should not be punished? or are they conniving with a system which hasn't provided sufficient jail places in any event?

In my book a suspended sentence for violence is the same as getting off scot free.

01-06-2016 07:18AM

Deleted User wrote: »

Indeed, most of these guys are 'end of career' stage anyway, but do they actually believe that these violent thugs should not be punished? or are they conniving with a system which hasn't provided sufficient jail places in any event?

In my book a suspended sentence for violence is the same as getting off scot free.

But it's not.

They are very different.

Even if you have just lumped them together "in your book".

Superhorse · 01-06-2016 07:23AM

All our judges come from a certain sector of our society as in upper class and are so out of touch if defies belief. Put normal working and middle class people in the chair and you will see very different sentences for these scumbags.

Icemancometh · 01-06-2016 07:35AM

Deleted User wrote: »

But it's not.

They are very different.

Even if you have just lumped them together "in your book".

What's the practical effect of a suspended sentence in most cases though? There seems to be a well established precedent in Irish law now that your first assault is basically a freebie. Essentially, if you have a clean record, you can attack somebody, brutally injure them and cause them permanent suffering, but as long as you don't kill them and don't do it again, you won't see the inside of a cell.

01-06-2016 07:38AM

Superhorse wrote: »

All our judges come from a certain sector of our society as in upper class and are so out of touch if defies belief. Put normal working and middle class people in the chair and you will see very different sentences for these scumbags.

No they're not.

The Judge in this thread was a Garda. He played minor football for Wexford. That's hardly some sailing club D4 background.

DontThankMe · 01-06-2016 07:40AM

Because deep down they're made out of playdough.

qo2cj1dsne8y4k · 01-06-2016 08:02AM

Cause they like doughnuts too?

HiJacques · 01-06-2016 08:28AM

I think judges should have to spend a week a year living among the people that come before them. A bit like secret millionaire only they give out custodial sentences at the end.

Sam Kade · 01-06-2016 08:32AM

LexieOnRale wrote: »

Cause they like doughnuts too?

Yeah, they have loads of excess weight and are very soft as a result.

01-06-2016 08:32AM

They can't give out custodial sentences when the prison places are not there.
We need more prisons

Sam Kade · 01-06-2016 08:35AM

Best judge I ever came across was Mickie Padlock, he wasn't called padlock for nothing

pity he retired.

HiJacques · 01-06-2016 08:42AM

bubblypop wrote: »

They can't give out custodial sentences when the prison places are not there.
We need more prisons

Actually prisons seem more like crime universities. Build cheap log cabins in remote areas and pack repeat offenders off to the wilderness for a few years.

It might help alleviate the worst of housing shortages in some places too.

PARlance · 01-06-2016 08:43AM

SJW's at it again.... soft judge w*****'s

Sleepy · 01-06-2016 08:51AM

Conor74, you seem quite knowledgeable about this, any chance you could offer an answer to the OP's question?

Sentencing in Ireland seems extremely lenient and there seems to be precedent for some quite odd things being considered as "mitigating factors". I remember hearing a senior counsel on the Last Word years ago who claimed he leaves a naggin of whiskey in his glove compartment in case he's ever involved in a fatal road traffic accident on the basis that those guilty of vehicular manslaughter apparently receive lower sentences when drink driving is involved. I'd hope that this isn't still the case but we do seem to have some incredibly soft / odd sentencing based on what we see reported in the press and the numbers of individuals walking free that have dozens of convictions...

01-06-2016 09:18AM

Sleepy wrote: »

Conor74, you seem quite knowledgeable about this, any chance you could offer an answer to the OP's question?

Sentencing in Ireland seems extremely lenient and there seems to be precedent for some quite odd things being considered as "mitigating factors". I remember hearing a senior counsel on the Last Word years ago who claimed he leaves a naggin of whiskey in his glove compartment in case he's ever involved in a fatal road traffic accident on the basis that those guilty of vehicular manslaughter apparently receive lower sentences when drink driving is involved. I'd hope that this isn't still the case but we do seem to have some incredibly soft / odd sentencing based on what we see reported in the press and the numbers of individuals walking free that have dozens of convictions...

I think there are certainly bad sentences.

But people ignore the hundreds and hundreds of decisions every day, focus on one or 2 they find troubling (and usually on the basis of a media take, and reporters often leave out huge chunks, sometimes missing the whole point of a decision), and then go on some nonsense rant about Judges in ivory towers. It would be like looking at hospitals, saying a patient died yesterday, and then going off on one about Consultants being paid too much to care for the poor. They are a huge number of factors, was it a guilty plea, was there previous, what did the victim say in Court, what is sentencing in the area, and on and on and on. In this particular case, the suggestion that the Judge, an ex Garda, is from privileged class and doesn't know about crime is patent nonsense. Again, he was a Garda, so he presumably saw more of it than most here.

VinLieger · 01-06-2016 09:23AM

Deleted User wrote: »

But it's not.

They are very different.

Even if you have just lumped them together "in your book".

Yes they are different but the difference between being free and a suspended sentence is far smaller than the difference between a suspended sentence and jail time.

Even a proper house arrest system using ankle monitors would be far more preferable that fit in between of suspended sentences and jail time, the idea of being punished by the courts is restricting freedoms as you have chosen to not obey societies laws. Suspended sentences for certain crimes similar to the one posted here are simply not enough of a punishment especially when they are given the people who quite often have a ridiculous number of previous offences.

This judge is a joke though saying his lack of english is a mitigating factor is a beyond stupid, yeah hes gonna have a hard time in prison cus you know.... prison is meant to be hard?

01-06-2016 09:56AM

VinLieger wrote: »

Yes they are different but the difference between being free and a suspended sentence is far smaller than the difference between a suspended sentence and jail time...

Not really.

The sight of a suspended sentence on a record affects issues like ability to travel, get a job etc. It is a problem for life. The difference between that and getting off "scot free" (by which I presume the poster meant no conviction at all) is huge. A month or 2 in some prison like Cork is no big imposition at all.

ohnonotgmail · 01-06-2016 10:03AM

Raised Eyebrow wrote: »

This is from the same judge who handed down a 6 year jail term for the VAT on garlic charge

you mean the multi-million euro vat fraud on wrongly declared goods. he wasnt exactly a champion of the people giving it to the man.

HiJacques · 01-06-2016 10:15AM

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

you mean the multi-million euro vat fraud on wrongly declared goods. he wasnt exactly a champion of the people giving it to the man.

I love that one. It's a bit like the family being evicted from their second, or first they had a few anyway, home in Dalkey and having to commute from London to protest the injustice of it.

01-06-2016 10:27AM

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

you mean the multi-million euro vat fraud on wrongly declared goods. he wasnt exactly a champion of the people giving it to the man.

Again, the huge confusion around the law and sentencing.

People moan about the failure to hand down harsh sentences, and when it comes to white collar crime in particular we often hear the "why can we be more like the USA, with crooks being led out of offices in handcuffs" and so on.

Then some businessman who committed a massive fraud involving significant planning and execution gets a big sentence and everyone was wringing their hands about the unfairness of it all to the poor ol' apple importer.

ohnonotgmail · 01-06-2016 10:34AM

HiJacques wrote: »

Actually prisons seem more like crime universities. Build cheap log cabins in remote areas and pack repeat offenders off to the wilderness for a few years.

It might help alleviate the worst of housing shortages in some places too.

did we not do that already and call it leitrim?

LightsStillOn · 03-06-2016 02:42PM

Can't get my head around this one at all, is there no such thing as a life sentence in this country? Story makes for a very grim read so be warned

http://www.thejournal.ie/rape-2804263-Jun2016/

21 years with the final 7 suspended, so 14 years. 14 ****ing years for what he did.

omahaid · 03-06-2016 02:56PM

Raised Eyebrow wrote: »

This is from the same judge who handed down a 6 year jail term for the VAT on garlic charge

Thankfully the court of criminal appeal found that Nolan erred in this case - that sentence was set aside.

"Delivering the judgment, Justice Liam McKechnie said there was an error of principle by the trial judge in excluding mitigating factors.

This afternoon the three-judge appeal court said the trial judge failed to give any explanation for imposing the maximum sentence of five years on one count.

It was not open to the trial judge to impose the sentence which he did and the mitigating factors were either entirely overlooked or not properly valued."

http://www.rte.ie/news/2013/0122/363908-paul-begley-garlic-court/

Why people here continue to defend the sentence is beyond me considering it was set aside?

B.A._Baracus · 03-06-2016 03:01PM

It's wrong how such crimes can get such a weak sentence.
I am no expert on the justice / prison system but is'nt the weak sentencing due to overcrowding of prisions? or should I say not enough prisions.

Like I mean the whole system is bollocks. Almost like a merry-go-round. You give people weak prisons times and put them in the system, get them out of the system and next one in. Sure some get the hefty sentence they deserve but for others it's just a slap on the wrist.

Muahahaha · 03-06-2016 04:02PM

Why is it when soft sentences are handed down you can be almost certain that it is Judge Martin Nolan on the case? The guy has zero appreciation for violence, rape and child porn. But mislabel apples for garlic and he throws you in prison for 6 years, this is even after you've paid back every cent to the taxman.

Some of Martin Nolan's judgements
http://www.broadsheet.ie/2013/11/18/who-is-judge-nolan-jailing/

Readers may be familiar with the recent decision of Judge Martin Nolan not to impose a custodial sentence on former civil servant Patrick Corcoran, 53, after he was caught with over 7,000 images and 21 videos of child pornography.

In October 2012 Judge Nolan allowed 29 year old Graham Griffiths, who committed a violent sex attack on a 17-year-old, to walk free from court, suspending his four year sentence in full on condition he pay his victim 15,000 Euros. Griffiths had told gardaí he felt he was ‘under some magnetic force’ and ‘it must have been the hormones’ that caused him to attack.

In December 2012 Judge Nolan fully suspended a three year sentence given to David Sharpe, a father of one, who went to a shop looking for help to transfer child pornography from one phone to another has avoided a jail term. The screensaver on his phone had an image of a child naked from the waist down as the background wallpaper. 44 images were recovered, 18 of which depicted children aged between eight and 14 years old engaged in penetrative sex, nine which showed children engaged in non-penetrative sexual activity and 17 which showed children in sexual poses. Judge Nolan said he was satisfied a prison term was not justified before he sentenced Sharpe to three years which he suspended in full on strict conditions including that he remain under probation supervision for 18 months. He accepted that Sharpe had not distributed, purchased nor shared the images and had therefore not supported the child pornographic industry.

In July 2012 Judge Nolan again refused to impose a custodial sentence on a convicted sex offender who viewed animated child porn – graphic depictions of sexual activity with speech bubbles that left no doubt they were of children. Judge Martin Nolan said if the material had involved real children or if O’Neill had paid for it, he would be imposing a “reasonably severe” sentence. He added: “This material, no matter how odious, did not harm or exploit children.”

However, some before Judge Nolan have not been as lucky:

In October 2012, Judge Nolan jailed Rhoda Salunoy, from the Philippines, for three years with the final 16 months suspended for theft of EUR 8,531 from her elderly employer. Ms Salunoy was a gambling addict.

In June 2012 Judge Nolan jailed 36-year-old Charity Ajayioba,a Nigerian prostitute working in three properties in Sligo for three years for running brothels. Ajayioba had claimed that she had been trafficked to Ireland and was forced to work here as a prostitute to pay back a debt. The judge accepted the facts of the case were unclear as to what position Ajayioba held, her level of control or the amount of profit she made in the running of the brothels, but she had been directing at least one prostitute and was keeping brothels.

In June 2012 Judge Nolan jailed Martin Forsyth, from Bray, for two and a half years. Forsyth had set up a bogus company to import valium so he could self-medicate to get off heroin, and had later advertised the valium online and subsequently supplied it to a ‘UK source. Judge Nolan took into account Forsyth’s early plea of guilty and cooperation with the gardai but said ‘ he must have known and appreciated what he was doing was wrong.’

In May 2012 Judge Nolan jailed a mother and member of the travelling community, Mary Connors for three years for EUR250,000 welfare fraud committed over the course of 14 years, saying he had to ‘send out a message’ to welfare fraudsters.

And, finally…in March 2012 Judge Nolan jailed Paul Begley, of Begley Brothers Limited for six years after he admitted labelling consignments of garlic as apples to avail of a lower tax rate. Mr Begley’s sentence was subsequently reduced to two years by the Court of Criminal Appeal.

As you can see from the pattern above, if you come up in front of Judge Martin Nolan for sexual assault, rape, child pornography or violent assault then you're going to get an easy time. But come up in front of him on charges of theft or fraud and he'll throw the book at you. I'm not trying to condone theft or fraud because they are crimes too, but the fact he gives sentences for these while letting violent crazed sex pests walk away scot free says a lot about his line of thinking.

He is without doubt one of the worst judges operating in Ireland today.

Why are our judges so soft?

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