Season 6 Episode 5 "The Door" - "Book readers"

hotshots85 · 23-05-2016 01:10PM

intheclouds wrote: »

There should only be All Bran - but the Nights King being able to touch his body in the past would suggest he has physicality as well as consciousness in the past.

I would counter that there is only one consciousness of All Bran, but maybe 2 physical Brans?

<<head explodes>>

My thoughts were that yes the Nights King touched him but that was because he also has beyond physical powers, and using the term REALLY LOOSELY it was more like a psychic attack, a brain link type thing, that then manifested itself physically on Bran's arm.

Daith · 23-05-2016 01:10PM

Zillah wrote: »

Oh no, you've been marked by the White Walkers and now they can breach our defenses!!! They will certainly be coming to kill us right now, you must flee! But first, lets go on some more visions quests and leave ourselves completely vulnerable and then act surprised when we're attacked?

My only problem with the episode.

They had to because Bran had to create Hodor

Daith · 23-05-2016 01:13PM

Kenna Mysterious Scowl wrote: »

You wouldn't have a link to that would you? Looking through now but it's pretty busy over there today

https://m.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/4ikuky/spoilers_everything_i_compiled_a_list_of_all_of/

Baggly · 23-05-2016 01:14PM

adocholiday wrote: »

I thought that episode was rubbish and it may have ruined the entire series for me. Leaving the Bran/Hodor bit aside for a second:

The Kingsmoot was a crap, rushed event where in the books it was great. Euron admits to killing Balon and the majority are not just ok with it, but in fact vote him in as king. Littlefinger has managed to take the Vale knights all the way to Moat Cailin no bother with no mention of it in the show. The Blackfish has retaken Riverrun which I feel is a significant plot point just shoved into the episode.

Now the Bran/Hodor thing. I simply hate anything to do with time paradoxes/time travel. It's a terrible device in writing that can lead to all sorts of plot holes etc. I think a lot of my annoyance stems from my hatred of Bran in general; his selfishness is what got everyone killed after all, but I just think that this could potentially ruin the story. The implication here that the 'future' has already happened just kills the whole thing for me. I'm nothing short of raging with all of this now

The future hasn't already happened. 3 eye put a plan in place and it came to fruition in a closed loop.

It's no different to Cersei's schemes - she set out to influence events, made adjustments along the way and took her opportunity when it came along.

Similarly, 3 eye put a plan in place, influenced events using his abilities and it came to pass because of his actions.

The only weird bit is that the plan took place in the past.

intheclouds · 23-05-2016 01:25PM

stankratz wrote: »

I noticed that the incendiaries which the CotF were throwing at the Whitewalkers had no effect on the Night King or on the other elite WWs. There was a circle of fire around Bloodraven's cave which parted as the Night King walked through it. Night King is a Targaryen!!! No but seriously, the elder WWs seem to have some immunity to fire. I wonder if it is complete immunity, or will it just take very hot fire from something very big to have an effect on them.

Yeah, lobbing grenades seems to only kill the wights. The white walkers seem to be made of sterner stuff, although they do shatter from dragon glass or valyrian steel.

I thought it was a nice echo to have Littlefinger meet Sansa in Molestown which is essentially a brothel - didnt he bring her mother to meet in his brothel in Kings Landing?

adocholiday · 23-05-2016 01:25PM

Pter wrote: »

The future hasn't already happened. 3 eye put a plan in place and it came to fruition in a closed loop.

It's no different to Cersei's schemes - she set out to influence events, made adjustments along the way and took her opportunity when it came along.

Similarly, 3 eye put a plan in place, influenced events using his abilities and it came to pass because of his actions.

The only weird bit is that the plan took place in the past.

It's still crap writing. Any time manipulation in a story leads to all sorts of potential issues and means for a writer to close up gaps etc. I have to say I'm surprised that GRRM would take such an approach.

And I think it's safe to say that we know of events in the past where whispers were heard and it's all likely linked to Bran's ability. So it means either that Bran can affect past events, or else when the event in the past was the present time that Bran in the future was affecting it.

Regardless of which it is the series has dropped considerably in my estimations as a result.

intheclouds · 23-05-2016 01:27PM

adocholiday wrote: »

It's still crap writing. Any time manipulation in a story leads to all sorts of potential issues and means for a writer to close up gaps etc. I have to say I'm surprised that GRRM would take such an approach.

And I think it's safe to say that we know of events in the past where whispers were heard and it's all likely linked to Bran's ability. So it means either that Bran can affect past events, or else when the event in the past was the present time that Bran in the future was affecting it.

Regardless of which it is the series has dropped considerably in my estimations as a result.

Jaysus, theres dragons, blood magic, red priestesses seeing things in the fire, a man has come back to life, a young woman is fireproof, theres a zombie army of the undead - but you have an issue with time travel!?!?!?

adocholiday · 23-05-2016 01:33PM

intheclouds wrote: »

Jaysus, theres dragons, blood magic, red priestesses seeing things in the fire, a man has come back to life, a young woman is fireproof, theres a zombie army of the undead - but you have an issue with time travel!?!?!?

This is the argument bandied around when people criticize any element of the show/books. I don't have a problem with the existence of time travel in the ASOIAF universe. It's not the logic or physics of time travel that I am complaining about. I have a problem with it being used by an author/screen writer as a plot tool. It leads to all sorts of problems and plot holes a lot of the time IMO.

Falthyron · 23-05-2016 01:37PM

adocholiday wrote: »

It leads to all sorts of problems and plot holes a lot of the time IMO.

Lets wait and see if that comes to be, shall we?

intheclouds · 23-05-2016 01:37PM

adocholiday wrote: »

I don't have a problem with the existence of time travel in the ASOIAF universe.

adocholiday wrote: »

I have a problem with it being used by an author/screen writer as a plot tool.

Bit of a paradox there!!

So its ok if it exists but not if they use it? Im even more confused!

duffman13 · 23-05-2016 01:41PM

GerB40 wrote: »

Maybe the fact that the Nights King could physically touch Bran is because the 'magic' the white walkers use is the same that Bran and Bloodraven use, the magic of the Children of the Forest. I reckon the white walkers and Bran are just two sides of the same coin.

This has to be the case, the white walkers control the wights similar to Bran being able to worg and control people, however the white walkers do this on a much bigger scale.

I wonder if the walkers will even pursue Bran back to the wall if they need him to go back to the other side. That marker surely means they can track him anywhere now so there may not be a scramble to get away in the next episode of they need him to cross the wall

FURET · 23-05-2016 01:57PM

The actor whom the Children transformed into a White Walker - is he the same actor who plays the Night King?

How did Little Finger get to Moletown so quickly?

pq0n1ct4ve8zf5 · 23-05-2016 01:58PM

Bambi wrote: »

The problem is they're just short of Hadoukens, it's like a check list of dumb fight scenes memes.. arya doing the kick jump off her back as the other girl walks away, spinning staffs around like majorettes.

Yeah, that's the style of martial art one character is specifically training another in. And on the other hand scenes like The Hound v Brienne just has them battering lumps out of each other because brute strength and speed is their strong point. Arya's story is moving pretty bloody slowly, but she's learning speed, agility, reflexes, and supernatural powers, some kind of Bourne Identity style thing would be more stupid. It's a genre TV show, it uses brutal, more realistic fight scenes when it needs to and more stylised OTT ones when it needs to.

Mr Freeze · 23-05-2016 01:59PM

FURET wrote: »

How did Little Finger get to Moletown so quickly?

Its established in the show that certain characters can teleport when they need to.

EG, Littlefinger is always teleporting.
Jamie teleporting a whole ship from Dorne to Kings Landing while Jon Snow lay dead at Castle Black and Sam was still in a ship on the way south.

awec · 23-05-2016 02:02PM

Don't pay any attention to travel times in the show. I am pretty sure Sansa got from Winterfell to Castle Black in one episode too.

Falthyron · 23-05-2016 02:04PM

FURET wrote: »

How did Little Finger get to Moletown so quickly?

He used his Telepetyr. :pac:

Saganist · 23-05-2016 02:11PM

adocholiday wrote: »

This is the argument bandied around when people criticize any element of the show/books. I don't have a problem with the existence of time travel in the ASOIAF universe. It's not the logic or physics of time travel that I am complaining about. I have a problem with it being used by an author/screen writer as a plot tool. It leads to all sorts of problems and plot holes a lot of the time IMO.

As stated before, the whole Hodor/Bran loop is closed. I can't see any reasoning that this would lead to plot holes.

Plot holes were more likely to occur when the show drifted way off-book, which has already happened quite a while ago.

Pete Moss · 23-05-2016 02:14PM

awec wrote: »

Don't pay any attention to travel times in the show. I am pretty sure Sansa got from Winterfell to Castle Black in one episode too.

Doesn't GRRM not cover this in an introduction to AFFC or ADWD? I think he mentions at the beginning of the book that events and timelines aren't what they seem to be.

So, the point in the TV series which shows Sam and Gilly on the ship may be occurring around the same time Jon is being stabbed in season 5. The same can be said for other plot lines i.e. LF was in The Vale last week, but whilst he was in The Vale Sansa may have only been on her way to The Wall.

I could be miles off, but that's how I've always overlooked the timeline issues with the show.

Jelle1880 · 23-05-2016 02:15PM

awec wrote: »

Don't pay any attention to travel times in the show. I am pretty sure Sansa got from Winterfell to Castle Black in one episode too.

To be fair, Winterfell and Castle Black aren't that far from each other.

https://www.quora.com/How-far-is-it-from-Castle-Black-to-Winterfell
Provided they didn't encounter any trouble it can be done in 1 or 2 days I guess, with minimal rest.

pq0n1ct4ve8zf5 · 23-05-2016 02:17PM

Pete Moss wrote: »

Doesn't GRRM not cover this in an introduction to AFFC or ADWD? I think he mentions at the beginning of the book that events and timelines aren't what they seem to be.

So, the point in the TV series which shows Sam and Gilly on the ship may be occurring around the same time Jon is being stabbed in season 5. The same can be said for other plot lines i.e. LF was in The Vale last week, but whilst he was in The Vale Sansa may have only been on her way to The Wall.

I could be miles off, but that's how I've always overlooked the timeline issues with the show.

Yeah me too. Dunno if it's actually true but it's just easier :pac:

Someone pointed out recently a bit in the middle of season three where Daenerys says 'A year ago I had no dragons', which does seem to imply things are moving at different paces

laugh · 23-05-2016 02:25PM

I wonder if Hodor will rise again!

Mr Freeze · 23-05-2016 02:27PM

Jelle1880 wrote: »

To be fair, Winterfell and Castle Black aren't that far from each other.

https://www.quora.com/How-far-is-it-from-Castle-Black-to-Winterfell
Provided they didn't encounter any trouble it can be done in 1 or 2 days I guess, with minimal rest.

In winter, it would probably take an extra few days no?

But people are right, pay no attention to travel times in the show now, as people are teleporting around to satisfy the plot.

duploelabs · 23-05-2016 02:29PM

Kenna Mysterious Scowl wrote: »

Arya's story is moving pretty bloody slowly, but she's learning speed, agility, reflexes, and supernatural powers, some kind of Bourne Identity style thing would be more stupid.

Daredevil ftw

Baggly · 23-05-2016 02:34PM

Mr Freeze wrote: »

In winter, it would probably take an extra few days no?

But people are right, pay no attention to travel times in the show now, as people are teleporting around to satisfy the plot.

I would be a lot more annoyed by experiencing more of the travel with the characters, and thus slowing the overall plot development, than i am for a lack of transparency around travel times.

Mr Freeze · 23-05-2016 02:46PM

Pter wrote: »

I would be a lot more annoyed by experiencing more of the travel with the characters, and thus slowing the overall plot development, than i am for a lack of transparency around travel times.

A valid point.

They are ramping up the pace this season now and killing off characters quickly too.

Dyr · 23-05-2016 02:47PM

Kenna Mysterious Scowl wrote: »

Yeah, that's the style of martial art one character is specifically training another in. And on the other hand scenes like The Hound v Brienne just has them battering lumps out of each other because brute strength and speed is their strong point. Arya's story is moving pretty bloody slowly, but she's learning speed, agility, reflexes, and supernatural powers, some kind of Bourne Identity style thing would be more stupid. It's a genre TV show, it uses brutal, more realistic fight scenes when it needs to and more stylised OTT ones when it needs to.

The Hound Vs Brienne was just well choreographed, they're both big ****ers in armour so they had to smash lumps off each other. Compare that to Brienne fencing Jamie which was all about the skillz (again well choreographed). The choreography has fallen off a cliff in the recent series, every cliche going, Like Ser Dual Wield. Plus Arya can be repeatedly bitch slapped by five foot of wood without having her jaw took clean off..because of emm... magic and stuff. Get the f**k

Sad Professor · 23-05-2016 02:59PM

Really good episode. I'm always complaining about how stagey and poor the direction is on this show, but this week's was a big improvement. When I checked afterwards I saw Jack Bender directed it. He directed most of Lost's best episode and is a big step up from the usual hacks who don't seem to know who create tension or build suspense.

Summer's death annoyed me, though. I wish they hadn't made the direwolves CGI. It was a bad decision that guaranteed they'd be underused and then get killed off-screen. The manner in which Summer and Shaggydog have been dispensed with this season makes me think it's a budgetary thing and they won't be killed in the books.

Yakuza · 23-05-2016 03:00PM

Quick question : How are people commenting on this at 20:00 on Sunday when it airs at like 2:00AM on the Monday here?

bnt · 23-05-2016 03:01PM

Zillah wrote: »

Oh no, you've been marked by the White Walkers and now they can breach our defenses!!! They will certainly be coming to kill us right now, you must flee! But first, lets go on some more visions quests and leave ourselves completely vulnerable and then act surprised when we're attacked?

My only problem with the episode.

The Three-Eyed Raven explicity said he had little time left, and Bran had to learn "everything" in that time. It was a rush job, for sure. They didn't expect it to go all pear-shaped just that quickly.

This is the book thread, and I've read all the books, but in them I didn't remember any references to Arya and the theatre troupe at all. I was expecting it due to the casting news (Richard E Grant), but that was all. However, in this and other threads, some people seemed to know about this already. It turns out that the troupe, and Arya's involvement, are in sample Winds of Winter chapters released by GRRM, which I haven't read yet. Even so, the series deviates from those as well.

duploelabs · 23-05-2016 03:04PM

Yakuza wrote: »

Quick question : How are people commenting on this at 20:00 on Sunday when it airs at like 2:00AM on the Monday here?

Season 6 Episode 5 "The Door" - "Book readers"

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