The Middle Distance Thread

dna_leri wrote: »

Is there a list of the DDAC graded meets online somewhere?
Would be good to get them on the list too.

Here you go, DDAC Graded

1 - 28th April 2016 - 100m/800m/3000m/Long Jump
2 - 19th May 2016 - 200m/1500m/5000m/Shot Putt
3 - 2nd June 2016 - 100m/400m/Mile/Javelin
4 - 30th June 2016 -200m/800m/3000m/Long Jump
5 - 7th July 2016 - 100m/1500m/400m/Shot Putt
6 - 11th August - Events TBD

Updated table:

Sacksian wrote: »

It's times like this I'd love to have a coach to sit down with and figure out how I'm going to stop myself from trying to run 18 800s this summer.

Ok - 2 entered for this month (Greystones entries open - what's that track like, btw?). I just have to avoid the remaining 16...

Sacksian wrote: »

Ok - 2 entered for this month (Greystones entries open - what's that track like, btw?). I just have to avoid the remaining 16...

I did a fair bit of training there last year. It's a great track for training on. Would be a bit slow for sprint races I guess, though for middle distance it would be grand. It's a 6 lane track. Bit of a pain to get to without a car as the DART leaves you a 3k walk away. I like the track overall. It's shielded by steep hills though I'm not sure that keeps the wind out much. The last 2 years that meet has seen diabolical weather, so surely it's due a turn of good fortune this year. Last year's meet was real real misery.

Following Sunday's race, I decided I was probably tempting fate by trying to run two 800s in the following 2 weeks, having raced three consecutive weekends, so the plan now is to try and get some proper aerobic training in and see if I can iron the back/hamstring/glute niggles out while doing so.

My races, up to senior nationals, will be:

May 11th - 1500m, or even 5k if I'm feeling brave (Graded@Tallaght)
June 5th - 800m (Leinster Champs)
June 8th - 1500m (Graded @Morton)
June 17th - 800m (IMC / GV Ryan)
June 25th - 1500m (Nationals)

After nationals, it'll be 8s (and, hopefully, sub 2) until August. Possibly do the 3k in Tallaght and haven't decided what to do at masters yet, may even skip it - depending on how satisfied I'm feeling with the season!

Training-wise, I bit the bullet, did a lactate test and got some advice on my training. Basically, I'm over-trained anaerobically and under-trained aerobically. I sort of knew this and I've wanted to close the gap for a few years now and am hoping putting some structure on training for the next 6-9 months will pay off for both track and xc this year. The plan looks very different to what I'd normally do myself - lots of threshold work, very little pace work. After reading the Science of Running, I had guessed that I probably fitted the profile of a fast-twitch runner, in terms of the training I preferred and responded to, and the new training reflects that. But I suppose the proof of the pudding will be in the eating. Season goal is to avoid injury - going into it with a minor but difficult-to-shake niggle may not be the best start!

If it all goes ridiculously well, maybe I'll even pull off what one guy tried to do at nationals in 2014 - taking a jump on a tactical 1500 with a suicide solo run in the heats. I think he was way out in front for 3 laps and passed by C'OL, John Travers and Danny Mooney and 6 others on the final lap. It was actually brilliant to watch - would have loved him to do it. I thought there was a chance too but, by the end, there were enough people in the race who didn't want to risk missing out on the final by letting him go. (I won't actually be able to do this, but I thought it was a cool thing to try to do).

KielyUnusual wrote: »

I love track sessions and wouldn't give them up but I definitely think there is something to basing training around tempo work. When marathon training, I used to do a lot of tempos but they were tough, tough, tough. No better feeling than completing a good, long tempo session and hitting the required pace but no worse feeling than doing it

If you look at my training log over the past few years, you'll see the complete absence of any tempos and very little steady running. Even when I did the marathon, I'd say I would bin 1 in every 2 tempo. And whenever I've tried to do them again, I've had to pull the plug on most on them. I did have more success with progression runs, but could never hack x miles at y pace - even though I can then run considerably faster per mile than that in a 5k race, for example.

The discussions in Science of Running comparing characteristics and training of slow-twitch versus fast-twitch runners was an eye-opener for me. I had been doing my 800-5k training intuitively based around these ideas, but it was good to see some scientific vindication!

The basic differences were

ST runners
- able to handle faster runs,
- better at jog recovery between reps,
- able to maintain peak shape for longer,
- and a limited kick (can still be worked on),
- 1500 training, for example, would focus on strength endurance.

FT runners
- more of a natural kick (unless used to stay on pace),
- easier recovery runs,
- aerobic intervals - rather than continuous threshold running - to increase LT,
- and having to be more careful with intensity selection in aerobic training as they may miss stimulus.
- 1500 training for FT runner might emphasise speed endurance more.

At the moment, my problem is less the lack of tempos, but not enough steady running. I did a lot more steady running in marathon training though, which if I get more in now - theoretically - should provide aerobic support to my mile/5k paces, so that's what the new plan is bringing back in. The tempo/LT stuff will just be split into intervals.

It feels like I have been training for a while at essentially two paces 4:20-5:20 for 200-800 intervals + 7:40-8:40 for everything else! So, the plan is to fill in those gaps in a structured fashion.

KielyUnusual wrote: »

Interesting to see that John Travers does no strength work and little or no track sessions. All just tempos and hills.

http://irishrunner.com/john-travers-qa/

I don't know much about his training, other than what I've read. I've definitely seen the no S&C comment from him before, but there was an interview with him before InterClubs last year, in the 42.ie, where he said he did do strength training

"His training has intensified since September and now includes two runs a day, 100 miles per week and a lot of strength and conditioning work. It’s a lifestyle rather than a job."

He also said that core work is important for the 1500m in an interview with Chivito500 for the Running Review a couple of years ago:

"It is very important, I never used to think that but recently have seen it has made a big difference to my training. I do not do too much at the minute though, only about 40 minutes per week, which would be 20 minutes on Monday and 20 on Wednesday. I do all of the basics from the plank, side plank, bridging, sit ups, push ups, hip exercises, balance exercises. We do a good range."

I'd say he probably doesn't do the weight-training/lifting that some (maybe even most) of his peers do. In the same interview though, he does mention that "no speed work" idea:

"I do not do any speed work with my new coach Jerry. We do not need to do it. All I need is strength training as I have proved. I do not need to work on my speed as I have it already."

I suppose part of the theory behind training like this is that, for some people, the most specific form of vo2/anaerobic training is races.

My new plan is a bit like this and it'll be strange going into my first 1500 this year, without having done this usual 20x200s, etc - I'm interested to see how it goes.

I absolutely love doing rhythm work for races, whether it's xc, marathon or mile, and I think every good performance I've had to date has been off lots of specific pace work - it would be my standard "how to improve at x distance/pace" advice: "get really comfortable biomechanically running at that pace".

But I'm just going to trust in the plan. I ran a decent 400 without any specific work two years ago and hadn't done any mile pace stuff in the weeks leading up to relays, just racing and 3k/5k stuff, so it might be possible for me.

I've been able to run decent times at 800m and 5k-6k off my own narrow race-pace approach to training, so looking forward to having the opportunity to empirically test how an alternative approach will work. Presuming I stay uninjured.

Timmaay wrote: »

Imc Greystones anyone? What yas running? Down for the 1500 here, have no real idea where I am at the minute, but as ever I'll be happy enough just to go out in PB pace and try to pull something outa my arse ha.

Considering doing it myself although I've no track work done bar a 3k last week. Don't feel like being lapped in the 5k so will probably do the 1500

I'm out for both Greystones and the Belfast one now too Can't believe there's only a week between them and then a big lull fixture wise after that.

Chivito550 wrote: »

Kildare Championships are in Leixlip on Sunday 15th May. Guests allowed this year.

Cheers chivito. Looks likely that my business trip will be delayed so might make the Belfast one after all. Given my complete lack of specific training though, the Leixlip option might be a better one all round.

Sacksian wrote: »

Down for the 15 'b' on Wednesday. No idea what to expect. Last session on the track was the end of March, although I have the road relays for muscle memory!

I'll be happy with anything under 4:20, so I predict 4:19. Whatever it is, it'll be something to build on.

Stick yourself down for the 'A' and you might have some competition . I'm hoping to be pulled along to a decent time. Sub 4.15 is the aim but given I've only one 15 session under the belt, it could go any way.

KielyUnusual wrote: »

Stick yourself down for the 'A' and you might have some competition . I'm hoping to be pulled along to a decent time. Sub 4.15 is the aim but given I've only one 15 session under the belt, it could go any way.

Yea 4.18 for the opener in the end. Was very disappointed at the time but given I had 4-5 weeks of 10-20 miles previous to the race and only the one middle distance session under the belt, it was liable to go awry, as it subsequently did. Pity, as it was such a perfect evening for running and a good time for the taking if the form was there.

It was quite a hot standard in the 'A' race in the end and I finished last. Two slow laps to begin with (67/68) but then the class of the guys ahead showed and I was blown away in the last two laps. Conversely, Sacksian's race went out in 64 so I guess you can never judge a Dublin Graded race by its grade .

Last few weeks training are shown below. Getting back in to it after a bit of down time. 400s session this week were all in the 64-66 range. Progress

Week Starting Monday Tuesday Wednesday Thursday Friday Saturday Sunday
02/05/2016 5.5 8 X 400 (90s) 5.5 3 X 8m (2m AR) 5.5 4 X 1k (90s) 12
09/05/2016 5.5 3 X (2 X 200 (200j)) w/ 400j b/w sets 1500m (4.18) 5.5 10.5 12 X 200 (Hills) Off
16/05/2016 5.5 8 X 400 (90s) 5.5 3 X 8m (2m AR) 5.5 WWR 12


Leg of the Wicklow Relay this week and then the 800 in the Graded next week are next up on the agenda. National's being the long term goal.

How's training going else where? What are the target's and how do you plan to get there?

KielyUnusual wrote: »

It was quite a hot standard in the 'A' race in the end and I finished last. Two slow laps to begin with (67/68) but then the class of the guys ahead showed...

The winner of the 'A' split 58 for the last 400!

Timmaay wrote: »

Not surprised given the 68sec jogging of the 1st 2 laps ha. Fairly poor turnout I thought, glad I didn't bother running now 2bh. Athletes voting with their feet and choosing the IMCs over graded nowadays, with an IMC you'll have a pacer also!

Next up for me looks like the 2k open steeple at the Leinsters juniors tomorrow in Greystones, I'll probably do 3k in the next graded also. Leaving the 800 for later in the season.

I'd imagine most sprinters would have chosen Ton Le Gaoithe over the graded at Tallaght too.

It's early season though. Guarantee numbers will pick up towards the end of the season when people start running out of possible races. I won't be touching a graded until July, when the season is winding down.

Mulberry wrote: »

What's the story with the 2K steeple in Greystones tomrorow Timmaay? A friend of mine is interested in doing it but doesn't want to be lapped! Is it split masters/seniors? Did you do it last year? Do you know what kind of times to expect?

Entry email up on athletics Leinster. Will be a seperate male and female race, that's it. In the mens I'm not expecting very many at all, I think only 4 entered, 2 of them are aiming for 6.15, one of the kids in our club should be in around 6.40 but he might do the 3k instead. I'll probably tag onto the 2 lads aiming for 6.15. However don't let the fear of being lapped put your friend off, it's not on until 5.30ish, most the crowd will be gone, and there are so few steeples it's a shame to miss any opportunity, especially for such a trivial reason.

Good question KU and something I have been thinking about a lot lately.

Back in the day, my warm up was pretty much the same every time: for xc, jog a lap or two of the course, stretch and strides. For track, jog around for 15 mins, stretch and strides

Now I'm doing different distances, I don't feel I can apply the same warm up routine to each distance, each requires a template, slightly tweaked.

I prefer a longer jog for cross country and 5k; 25 mins at an easy pace followed by drills, strides, minimal stretching and drills (just a couple of butt kicks and high knees while waiting to go). It all usually takes an hour in total.

Recently, I've been trying out a more thorough warm up:

- Jog of 15-20 mins, depending on activity so far that day and temperature (warmer = less jogging and much slower)
- limbering set: hip swivels, knee swivels, ankle swivels etc and arm swings
- general stretching (all short holds)
- strides, like yours 4-6, getting progressively faster. Sometimes the first two will be longer 'pick up' style
- stand up Myrtl routine
- drills

This has been leaving me really loose and fluid. It's been great when I've had the time to relax into it, you can spend an hour doing it. I'm going to try it for the first time in a pre-race setting on Tuesday; beep beep's time trial in the park. My feeling is that I should stick to a shorter jog for anything less than 5k (I remember Ronnie saying for his 800s and 1500s he wanted to conserve every ounce of energy).

5k and XC get the longest jogging and then it progressively declines again as the distances lengthen.

My clubmate could be a bit like you. She's a sub 3 marathon runner and she really only warms up after 8 miles. I've seen it myself on training runs. 8 miles, bang, she's gone

So to answer your question...I am bang in the middle of experimentation mode