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Dublin Public Transport Information

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    #32
    Bray Head
    Registered Users Posts: 894 ✭✭✭Bray Head


    OP is spot on.

    Public transport is really off-putting for tourists in Dublin. Most posters in this forum can't see this because they are heavy users of the system and/or professionally involved in it. The main problem is the lack of a MAP of routes and stops.

    Having parallel Dublin Bus and NTA route planners is completely bizarre too.

    I was slightly involved in organizing the visit of a large group to Dublin recently. In the end we told them just to never attempt Dublin Bus at all due to the cost, slowness and potential for confusion. For a group of over 5 a 7-seater taxi is a better option for nearly every journey.


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    #33
    devnull
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 11,595 Mod ✭✭✭✭devnull


    Bray Head wrote: »
    OP is spot on.

    Public transport is really off-putting for tourists in Dublin. Most posters in this forum can't see this because they are heavy users of the system and/or professionally involved in it. The main problem is the lack of a MAP of routes and stops.

    It exists on Transport for Ireland website, every stop on every route is there.

    The NTA should be providing everything and the operators should not be providing their own journey planner and own maps, but it is int he interest of state operators to have their own app, that they can control where they can control what is included in them. Unfortunately the transport operation is very much company focused rather than user focused.

    For example, Dublin Bus route planner includes Dublin Bus, Luas and Irish Rail. The NTA one includes every private and public service in the state. Dublin Bus will not want to use the NTA one because it might suggest people to use other operators that would give them a more direct journey. This is all of the kind of politics that has to be dealt with, it's not as simple as knocking up an independent planner and forcing everyone to use it, everyone has their own interests at play here.


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    #34
    TBirdFrank
    Registered Users Posts: 19 ✭TBirdFrank


    Well said Bray Head.

    Once I leave my home country - off goes my roaming key as I do not want a nasty surprise when I return home.

    Similarly I don't want to be walking round a strange city gawping aimlessly at my phone, laptop or whatever.

    I have come to see the city and I do that best off a good informative map.You are quite correct - there is a mindset and an expectation as to the use of apps and digital intelligence that completely fails to understand the needs and aspirations of the user and comments such as "should have properly researched" and "its all available of the xx or yy app" are indicative of a complete lack of understanding of the user market - especially the tourist market.

    What is needed is wider availability of the visitor leap card - at all main stations, ferryports etc, or on line; the availability to buy it for cash, and on collection to be given a map showing real bus, tram and train routes, not broad arrows showing where the main routes are but not what they do.

    Its called customer service in short, and it is getting in short supply as suppliers try to rely on the provision of an internet only interface.


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    #35
    Dyr
    Registered Users Posts: 23,246 ✭✭✭✭Dyr


    devnull wrote: »
    See:
    https://www.transportforireland.ie/journey-planner/maps/

    The interactive route map function has a map showing every single route and stop.

    Straght off the 4 route information is looks wrong, it doesn't stop on westmoreland st/dolier st.


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    #36
    devnull
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 11,595 Mod ✭✭✭✭devnull


    Bambi wrote: »
    Straght off the 4 route information is looks wrong, it doesn't stop on westmoreland st/dolier st.

    That's odd, it doesn't show like that for me.


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    #37
    Geuze
    Registered Users Posts: 13,151 ✭✭✭✭Geuze


    devnull wrote: »
    See:
    https://www.transportforireland.ie/journey-planner/maps/

    The interactive route map function has a map showing every single route and stop.

    Is it a printable pdf? I don't think so.

    Is it posted at every bus stop?


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    #38
    Geuze
    Registered Users Posts: 13,151 ✭✭✭✭Geuze


    lxflyer wrote: »
    There are maps on the way I believe but progress is really slow.

    I hate to criticise, but all over Europe every city has these maps for the last 20 years...............


    Also, what about a city street map, with transit routes overlaid?

    Like this in Berlin?

    http://fahrinfo.bvg.de/Fahrinfo/bin/query.bin/en?&ujm=1


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    #39
    Geuze
    Registered Users Posts: 13,151 ✭✭✭✭Geuze


    Or what about this map of Paris bus routes?

    http://www.ratp.fr/informer/pdf/orienter/f_plan.php?loc=reseaux&nompdf=bus_paris&fm=gif


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    #40
    Vic_08
    Registered Users Posts: 3,046 ✭✭✭Vic_08


    Geuze wrote: »
    I hate to criticise, but all over Europe every city has these maps for the last 20 years...............


    Also, what about a city street map, with transit routes overlaid?

    Like this in Berlin?

    http://fahrinfo.bvg.de/Fahrinfo/bin/query.bin/en?&ujm=1

    Dublin Bus used to produce local area guides with maps and timetables, about 25 in total AFAIR, had a number of them in the letterbox over the years as well as them being available in the O'Connell street office. There was also a full fold out B/W osi map available with all routes marked similar to the one you linked.

    Like it or not paper information is being used less and less in favour of online resources. Personally I prefer maps and timetables to journey planners any day but that is the way things are heading all over.


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    #41
    icdg
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 11,548 Mod ✭✭✭✭icdg


    Anyone remember this thread?

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=92395542

    Two years later and I have yet to see any of it implemented. It's no use coming up with fancy documents if you leave them on a shelf rotting afterwards.


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    #42
    devnull
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 11,595 Mod ✭✭✭✭devnull


    Geuze wrote: »
    Is it a printable pdf? I don't think so.

    Is it posted at every bus stop?

    Yes there is an option to save as a pdf and printer friendly.

    How can you put it at every bus stop? The thing is Dublin bus has a lot more routes and stops on its main streets than most cities. Other cities have them far more spread out than concentrated over a small number of city centre streets.

    Spider maps are possible at each stop but showing each stop and location each bus serves is not possible when most routes have well over 50 stops some streets have 30 buses stopping at then. You would need a display size of a bus to show all that info in a print large enough to meet accessible regulations.

    I agree information needs to be improved but you have to consider the operating environment too and the nature of bus service and operations in Dublin. In Germany you don't have so many stops on one street with the vast majority of routes all serving one street.

    Theory is great but once you start trying to produce there things in a readable format with all the details you want on you will have very cluttered and ugly document which is confusing to road.

    The fact that when Dublin bus did it. Hey had to use a huge fold out map is testament to that.


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    #43
    LXFlyer
    Registered Users Posts: 17,588 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    Geuze wrote: »
    I hate to criticise, but all over Europe every city has these maps for the last 20 years...............


    Also, what about a city street map, with transit routes overlaid?

    Like this in Berlin?

    http://fahrinfo.bvg.de/Fahrinfo/bin/query.bin/en?&ujm=1

    Why are you using the word "criticise" against my post?

    I don't work for the NTA or Dublin Bus - I'm just reporting what I know about this.


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    #44
    anothernight
    Registered Users Posts: 2,541 ✭✭✭anothernight


    Bray Head wrote: »
    OP is spot on.

    Public transport is really off-putting for tourists in Dublin. Most posters in this forum can't see this because they are heavy users of the system and/or professionally involved in it. The main problem is the lack of a MAP of routes and stops.

    I had to laugh at some of the replies. "What are you complaining about? All you needed to do is use [insert obscure unofficial workaround that only a long term resident and user of Dublin's transport would know about here]"


    Very valid complaints OP. Unfortunately, if you visit Dublin again you will have to use the workarounds, as it's very unlikely that any improvements will be implemented in a reasonable timescale. That's just the way it is. Just count yourself lucky that you visited Dublin now and not 5-10 years ago... *shudders*


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    #45
    LXFlyer
    Registered Users Posts: 17,588 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    To put some context on this:

    Dublin Bus DID have an excellent full network map, based on an overlay of the OSI map of Dublin, and then published 20 individual local guides based on that map.

    They also had extracts from that map on bus shelter panels.

    Unfortunately they had to stop using those maps when OSI demanded high fees for using them.

    They did then produce a network spider map.

    Subsequently the Network Direct programme came along and there were so many changes happening so often that a network map would have been redundant as soon as it was published. The recession also didn't help as these things cost money.

    Currently we are in a situation where there is a change process happening with the NTA driving things but like anything that involves spending public money it does take time.

    Without going into more detail, from my own contact with both the NTA and DB I am aware that there are new maps currently being designed - both spider maps and a proper network map. But like anything it takes time. The prospect of tendering may also impact on this as from that point on there may be multiple operators.

    I am also aware that the new design standards are being worked upon - they're not "sitting on a shelf", but neither the NTA nor Dublin Bus have armies of people to work on this kind of thing. It is being worked upon behind the scenes.

    For the record I fully concur that we need ASAP:

    1) A proper set of network maps - I'd split them into five sections, north east, north west, south west, south east and central, both as PDFs and printed files.

    2) A spider network map

    3) Spider maps showing the network from each local area on display on stops

    4) A local street map for each stop

    I'm also aware that all of that is a fairly mammoth task but I do believe we will see results later this year.

    Long overdue but there will be improvements.


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    #46
    anothernight
    Registered Users Posts: 2,541 ✭✭✭anothernight


    The problem, as I see it, is that there's always something being worked on, something being changed, and it's always used as an excuse to not have a high quality service. Results should be judged by customer satisfaction, not how much effort is being put into the service.

    Great to see that there will be improvements, but how many years has it been of Dublin being told that transport will be improved? It gets to a point where you stop believing it until it's there. Like Metro North/South/West/Flavourofthemonth.


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    #47
    LXFlyer
    Registered Users Posts: 17,588 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    anothernight wrote: »
    The problem, as I see it, is that there's always something being worked on, something being changed, and it's always used as an excuse to not have a high quality service. Results should be judged by customer satisfaction, not how much effort is being put into the service.

    Great to see that there will be improvements, but how many years has it been of Dublin being told that transport will be improved? It gets to a point where you stop believing it until it's there. Like Metro North/South/West/Flavourofthemonth.

    To be fair the level of change of routes during the Network Direct project was far in excess of what would even come close to normal.

    I don't think it's fair to say that there haven't been improvements - there have, both in terms of information and service but they all tend to be incremental and maybe less noticeable.

    The network direct project did deliver improvements in the form of more cross-city routes, clock face regular interval departures and improved integration.

    We have RTPI, LEAP, a National Journey planner etc.

    What we don't have is adequate mapping, and we should have had it before now. It has been a major gripe of mine, but it is coming.


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    #48
    anothernight
    Registered Users Posts: 2,541 ✭✭✭anothernight


    lxflyer wrote: »
    To be fair the level of change of routes during the Network Direct project was far in excess of what would even come close to normal.

    I don't think it's fair to say that there haven't been improvements - there have, both in terms of information and service but they all tend to be incremental and maybe less noticeable.

    The network direct project did deliver improvements in the form of more cross-city routes, clock face regular interval departures and improved integration.

    We have RTPI, LEAP, a National Journey planner etc.

    What we don't have is adequate mapping, and we should have had it before now. It has been a major gripe of mine, but it is coming.

    Oh I agree with what you said! (Except for RTPI and LEAP issues but that's a topic for another thread)

    There's been improvements, but nothing of the scale that is needed.

    That's not what I'm talking about though. It's the attitude of "things will get better, promise" that crops up when customer dissatisfaction becomes more visible that I have an issue with. In a private company, if the service becomes very bad because of behind the scenes work, the company doesn't survive. It's all well and good to say that there's reasons for the things that don't work, but at the end of the day, having reasons and excuses doesn't make the customer happy. The OP won't find his way around Dublin by being told there's changes coming up, for example. In the many years I lived in Dublin that seemed to be the prevailing attitude from service providers, which is why I don't believe any of their announced changes until they are ready and well implemented.


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    #49
    LXFlyer
    Registered Users Posts: 17,588 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    anothernight wrote: »
    Oh I agree with what you said! (Except for RTPI and LEAP issues but that's a topic for another thread)

    There's been improvements, but nothing of the scale that is needed.

    That's not what I'm talking about though. It's the attitude of "things will get better, promise" that crops up when customer dissatisfaction becomes more visible that I have an issue with. In a private company, if the service becomes very bad because of behind the scenes work, the company doesn't survive. It's all well and good to say that there's reasons for the things that don't work, but at the end of the day, having reasons and excuses doesn't make the customer happy. The OP won't find his way around Dublin by being told there's changes coming up, for example. In the many years I lived in Dublin that seemed to be the prevailing attitude from service providers, which is why I don't believe any of their announced changes until they are ready and well implemented.

    No but ranting about it as nauseum won't get it done any faster either.

    Unfortunately this kind of stuff is micro-level and does take time to produce as it requires design, checking, rechecking several times. It's not something that happens quickly.

    But I am aware that it is being worked on at the moment - that is a step forward.


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    #50
    anothernight
    Registered Users Posts: 2,541 ✭✭✭anothernight


    Whoosh.


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    #51
    LXFlyer
    Registered Users Posts: 17,588 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    anothernight wrote: »
    Whoosh.

    I'm not saying the OP is ranting - he's quite right - but it's still not going to make these happen any faster!

    I'm not in the habit of posting stuff here unless I'm fairly sure that it's right, and in this case I am pretty certain from the contact that I made myself that this will happen.


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    #52
    Geuze
    Registered Users Posts: 13,151 ✭✭✭✭Geuze


    lxflyer wrote: »
    Why are you using the word "criticise" against my post?

    I don't work for the NTA or Dublin Bus - I'm just reporting what I know about this.

    I don't mean to criticise you.

    I mean to criticise the transit authorities.


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    #53
    Geuze
    Registered Users Posts: 13,151 ✭✭✭✭Geuze


    devnull wrote: »

    How can you put it at every bus stop? The thing is Dublin bus has a lot more routes and stops on its main streets than most cities. Other cities have them far more spread out than concentrated over a small number of city centre streets.


    By this I mean a map, maybe 1.5m by 1.5m, on the wall panel at every bus shelter.

    That's what I've seen in Paris.


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    #54
    Geuze
    Registered Users Posts: 13,151 ✭✭✭✭Geuze


    devnull wrote: »

    How can you put it at every bus stop? The thing is Dublin bus has a lot more routes and stops on its main streets than most cities. Other cities have them far more spread out than concentrated over a small number of city centre streets.

    Spider maps are possible at each stop but showing each stop and location each bus serves is not possible when most routes have well over 50 stops some streets have 30 buses stopping at then. You would need a display size of a bus to show all that info in a print large enough to meet accessible regulations.

    I agree information needs to be improved but you have to consider the operating environment too and the nature of bus service and operations in Dublin. In Germany you don't have so many stops on one street with the vast majority of routes all serving one street.

    Theory is great but once you start trying to produce there things in a readable format with all the details you want on you will have very cluttered and ugly document which is confusing to road.

    Then it seems to me there are too many routes, and too many bus stops?

    As more tram lines get built, surely the no. of bus lines should fall?

    Indeed, I have often asked, why is there a 66 to Maynooth when there is a railway line?


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    #55
    Dyr
    Registered Users Posts: 23,246 ✭✭✭✭Dyr


    lxflyer wrote: »
    The network direct project did deliver improvements in the form of more cross-city routes, clock face regular interval departures and improved integration.

    Do you keep saying this in the hope it comes true :)


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    #56
    LXFlyer
    Registered Users Posts: 17,588 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    Geuze wrote: »
    By this I mean a map, maybe 1.5m by 1.5m, on the wall panel at every bus shelter.

    That's what I've seen in Paris.

    It is perfectly possible to do this and there are examples on the Transport for Ireland website already.

    https://www.transportforireland.ie/journey-planner/maps/

    Go down to Dublin Local Area and you'll see the kind of thing the NTA are looking at.


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    #57
    LXFlyer
    Registered Users Posts: 17,588 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    Bambi wrote: »
    Do you keep saying this in the hope it comes true :)

    Well you have your view, and respectfully I don't think that is representative of the changes as a whole. It may be appropriate of some of them, but certainly as someone who travels across the entire network it's not my experience.


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    #58
    Geuze
    Registered Users Posts: 13,151 ✭✭✭✭Geuze


    Geuze wrote: »
    By this I mean a map, maybe 1.5m by 1.5m, on the wall panel at every bus shelter.

    That's what I've seen in Paris.

    To be precise, I'm talking about a full street map, of the entire city, with all public transport routes overlaid, on the bus shelter panel.

    Not just a schematic diagram.


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    #59
    devnull
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 11,595 Mod ✭✭✭✭devnull


    You will not be able to make something that covers the whole city in a readable format that can fit into a bus shelter. It just isn't possible.

    The text would either have to be ultra small, or a huge number of colours will need to be used which would make the key almost impossible to read. Tell me how you are going to show approx 100 routes on a map, with all the stops and places served in text big enough to read, on a sheet of paper that isn't going to be much bigger than A3.

    That's before you consider the overwhelming majority of stops used by tourists and almost all stops in the city centre don't have shelters.


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    #60
    devnull
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 11,595 Mod ✭✭✭✭devnull


    If you want to see an illustration of all the stops, here you are:

    That's only the centre part of the city and it's already cluttered before you add in routing displays where about 20-30 diferent routes go down some streets

    There's also about 200 stops missing on that graphic, not the grey background numbers, with so many stops so close together that they cannot be displayed on the map, so if we're already having to omit information on a graphic that only covers the centre how do you think thye are going to display what you want?


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    #61
    Carawaystick
    Registered Users Posts: 8,779 ✭✭✭Carawaystick


    Geuze wrote: »

    Indeed, I have often asked, why is there a 66 to Maynooth when there is a railway line?

    Eh, to serve destinations and journeys, passengers might want to make that are not served by the train? :rolleyes:

    You might as well ask why there are buses going from Galway to Dublin as there is the train....


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