London receptionist sent home without pay for refusing to wear heels

whatismyname · 14-05-2016 11:11AM

K-9 wrote: »

Well no, they shouldn't be banned, unless it's a building site or something...

It all seems to have gone very odd....

Some ridiculous comparisons seem to be being made.

And thankfully no haven't seen anyone calling for heels in the office to be banned, just petitioning for a ban on office dress codes which require female staff to wear heels. Something clearly very different, and something thankfully most people would probably consider very reasonable.

K-9 · 14-05-2016 11:16AM

That's twitter and other social media for you.

One eyed Jack · 14-05-2016 11:16AM

kylith wrote: »

Why do some people seem to think that wearing flat shoes equates to wearing a tracksuit, or dressing 'like a student', or being dowdy?

Flat shoes are just as nice, professional, and dressy as high heels. I work in a professional office and the women wear everything from high heels to flat shoes and as long as they're well dressed then no-one cares. Frankly I'd be worried about someone who wouldn't use a company because the receptionist wasn't in heels for the 5 seconds they may see her feet.

That's a matter of personal taste though, and if you're an employer you have every right to have your personal tastes catered for in your dress code policy, but other employers should also reserve the right to include their personal tastes in their dress code policy. A good example is Richard Branson, owner of Virgin brand - he has a personal distaste for ties, and insists that none of his employees wear ties, but the employees of Virgin airlines must adhere to a strict dress code. I'm not sure is there still a height requirement for applications though.

whatismyname · 14-05-2016 11:18AM

K-9 wrote: »

That's twitter and other social media for you.

Aye, some people are maybe just best left to it.

stoplooklisten · 14-05-2016 11:20AM

Does this means that someone say for instance working in mcdonalds kitchen has the right to wear heels? They'll have to change their policy too.

maudgonner · 14-05-2016 11:22AM

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Yeah but this issue appears to be bigger than PwC dress code policy. This woman is campaigning to have the legislation changed, and that legislation would apply to all employers. It's like banning women from wearing high heels because some women don't want to wear them. Don't wear high heels if you don't want to wear them, and don't bother applying for jobs where you will be expected to wear them.

Seems simple enough surely. In the meantime, most women are aware of the discomfort that some women experience wearing heels, and they're aware of the potential health issues, but banning women from wearing heels in the office is no different to banning women from wearing flats, which are just as much a potential health issue.

Nobody, nobody involved in this case is suggesting banning women from wearing heels. At least as far as I know.

One eyed Jack · 14-05-2016 11:24AM

whatismyname wrote: »

It all seems to have gone very odd....

Some ridiculous comparisons seem to be being made.

And thankfully no haven't seen anyone calling for heels in the office to be banned, just petitioning for a ban on office dress codes which require female staff to wear heels. Something clearly very different, and something thankfully most people would probably consider very reasonable.

I doubt TG1's experience is unique:

TG1 wrote: »

I worked in a company where we were examining the possibility of banning heels on health and safety grounds...

I don't know that most people would consider it reasonable either, particularly people who would be affected by the ban. The French government thought most reasonable people would agree with banning the burqa too, and look how that turned out.

FunLover18 · 14-05-2016 11:26AM

I honestly don't understand this thread, no one is arguing that heels aren't the professional and no one is suggesting banning heels entirely. All this woman and her supporters want is a compromise whereby high heels are not a mandatory part of the dress code. I honestly don't see why people are objecting to giving women a choice in footwear providing their choice, be it heels or flats, look professional.

If you really feel so strongly about heels looking professional that you would be opposed to such a compromise, can you please let me know so I can put you on my ignore list for both our sakes.

maudgonner · 14-05-2016 11:26AM

stoplooklisten wrote: »

Does this means that someone say for instance working in mcdonalds kitchen has the right to wear heels? They'll have to change their policy too.

Have the shoes mandated by McDonalds been proven to cause injury? If not I doubt there will be a problem.

Certainly this case would not apply, since it only involves high heels.

whatismyname · 14-05-2016 11:27AM

One eyed Jack wrote: »

I doubt TG1's experience is unique:

I don't know that most people would consider it reasonable either, particularly people who would be affected by the ban. The French government thought most reasonable people would agree with banning the burqa too, and look how that turned out.

Not what I was referring to, and not what most would interpret your post to refer to . Not playing ball Jack, sorry.

whatismyname · 14-05-2016 11:29AM

Am sure it's probably been shared before, but here's the petition for anyone who wants to sign.

'Make it illegal for a company to require women to wear high heels at work' https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/129823

You need to be a British Citizen or UK resident to sign, but in my experience, there's probably a fair few Uk residents on here these days, so figured worth sharing.

stoplooklisten · 14-05-2016 11:29AM

maudgonner wrote: »

Have the shoes mandated by McDonalds been proven to cause injury? If not I doubt there will be a problem.

Certainly this case would not apply, since it only involves high heels.

Yes they have been proven to cause injury, by vogue magazine

Are Your Flats Causing Your Foot Pain? The Surprising Pitfalls of a Discreet Heel

There are a lot of diagnoses attributed to heels, but there are just as many caused by flats,” explains Chicago-based podiatrist Dr. Megan Leahy, D.P.M. When a heel is too low, or the toe of a shoe too tight, the natural distribution of pressure in a step becomes concentrated and strained, causing injuries that can lead all the way from the toe to the knee, back, hips, and even shoulders.

l

http://www.vogue.com/13373898/why-flats-are-dangerous-for-your-feet-injuries/

and

http://www.irishexaminer.com/lifestyle/healthandlife/yourhealth/did-you-know-that-wearing-flat-shoes-can-actually-damage-your-feet-276566.html

WHILE a pair of ballet pumps may seem more sensible and comfortable than towering stilettoes, they can be the source of severe foot and back pain. In fact, with their lack of arch support and cushioning, did you know that wearing flat shoes can actually damage your feet?

One eyed Jack · 14-05-2016 11:40AM

whatismyname wrote: »

Not what I was referring to, and not what most would interpret your post to refer to . Not playing ball Jack, sorry.

That would be the effect of Government interfering in private businesses dress code policies. I don't think employment or health and safety legislation should cover dress codes in an office environment.

The standard should be set by the company, in the very same way as nowadays we talk about the culture within a business, because image is important. I have no issue personally with whether a woman wears flats or heels, but if the dress code states heels and a smart skirt with a white blouse for women, and earrings no bigger than a 10c piece, no visible tattoos or piercings, etc, then that dress code should be adhered to. I don't think campaigning for legislation to change that will have any effect. A better way to have taken up her personal crusade would have been through a social media campaign.

whatismyname · 14-05-2016 11:44AM

This picture, where a woman was forced to wear heels, and her feet were covered in blood, by the end of the day is pretty scary.

Well, actually, to clarify I don't find the picture itself scary, and don't find it surprising at all, given how awful wearing heels can be, but what's scary is the attitude and lack of humanity shown by her managers.

It's been quite a few years where I've had a job where I was on my feet all day, and in some of them (particularly waitressing), even in flats my feet would often be quite painful by the end of a shirt. Absolutely dread to think what they would have felt like if I'd been forced to wear heels.

I honestly don't think I've worn heels of any sort on any occasion in at least a couple of years - the fact that I find it difficult to balance and get anxious about falling probably plays a part in this. I am quite happy with this, and I've always been well recognised as an outstanding worker at whatever job I've done, and can say without a doubt that me not wearing heels in any job not only wouldn't affect my ability to do that job, but in fact it would make me more able, given that I'd be able to walk properly and not be in a state of discomfort, having pain inflicted upon me unnecessarily.

And yeah fcuk any employer who would rank their 'personal taste' as a higher priority to my comfort and my physical and mental wellbeing as their employee.

And similarly, in my opinion, anyone who thinks it would be ok to rule me out of a job that I was very suitable for, (and feck it, who knows, maybe even the best candidate for) because it required me to wear heels, which I am unable and unwilling to do, and which would make me less able to do the job, and affect my physical and mental wellbeing, probably needs to have a good hard look at themselves, to be honest.

maudgonner · 14-05-2016 11:50AM

stoplooklisten wrote: »

Yes they have been proven to cause injury, by vogue magazine

Are Your Flats Causing Your Foot Pain? The Surprising Pitfalls of a Discreet Heel

There are a lot of diagnoses attributed to heels, but there are just as many caused by flats,” explains Chicago-based podiatrist Dr. Megan Leahy, D.P.M. When a heel is too low, or the toe of a shoe too tight, the natural distribution of pressure in a step becomes concentrated and strained, causing injuries that can lead all the way from the toe to the knee, back, hips, and even shoulders.

l

http://www.vogue.com/13373898/why-flats-are-dangerous-for-your-feet-injuries/

and

http://www.irishexaminer.com/lifestyle/healthandlife/yourhealth/did-you-know-that-wearing-flat-shoes-can-actually-damage-your-feet-276566.html

WHILE a pair of ballet pumps may seem more sensible and comfortable than towering stilettoes, they can be the source of severe foot and back pain. In fact, with their lack of arch support and cushioning, did you know that wearing flat shoes can actually damage your feet?

McDonalds are not mandating ballet pumps though, are they. What exactly does their dress code specify?

Tasden · 14-05-2016 11:56AM

whatismyname wrote: »

This picture, where a woman was forced to wear heels, and her feet were covered in blood, by the end of the day is pretty scary.

Well, actually, to clarify I don't find the picture itself scary, and don't find it surprising at all, given how awful wearing heels can be, but what's scary is the attitude and lack of humanity shown by her managers.
.

While I agree with your point, that picture shows a pair of karl largerfeld pumps with a pointed toe. Even a woman with perfectly healthy feet and no issues would probably feel discomfort/pain after doing a full shift as a waitress in shoes like that. If you know you're going to be uncomfortable in heels and on your feet all day then surely you should wear a more comfortable pair and not ones that your toes are going to be squeezed into. I agree with the girls point but unless the employer explicitly told her to wear that type of heel then she can't fully lay the blame for her bloody feet with the employer imo.

One eyed Jack · 14-05-2016 11:58AM

whatismyname wrote: »

And yeah fcuk any employer who would rank their 'personal taste' as a higher priority to my comfort and my physical and mental wellbeing as their employee.

And similarly, in my opinion, anyone who thinks it would be ok to rule me out of a job that I was very suitable for, (and feck it, who knows, maybe even the best candidate for) because it required me to wear heels, which I am unable and unwilling to do, and which would make me less able to do the job, and affect my physical and mental wellbeing, probably needs to have a good hard look at themselves, to be honest.

I don't think anyone need take a good hard look at themselves at all, in my opinion of course, when they can find plenty of candidates who are more suitable for a position that you would be unwilling to fulfil. That is absolutely your choice, as is it an employers choice to hire another candidate that they think is the best candidate for the role.

whatismyname · 14-05-2016 11:59AM

Tasden wrote: »

While I agree with your point, that picture shows a pair of karl largerfeld pumps with a pointed toe. Even a woman with perfectly healthy feet and no issues would probably feel discomfort/pain after doing a full shift as a waitress in shoes like that. If you know you're going to be uncomfortable in heels and on your feet all day then surely you should wear a more comfortable pair and not ones that your toes are going to be squeezed into. I agree with the girls point but unless the employer explicitly told her to wear that type of heel then she can't fully lay the blame for her bloody feet with the employer imo.

Yeah I definitely agree with you there.

While I still think either way the managers could have handled this a lot better - It's definitely unclear whether the employer told her to wear that exact type of heel / shoe. If they didn't and she chose that type of heel, she seems quite an idiot, and agree that in that case the blame for the bloody feet can't fully lie with the employer.

kylith · 14-05-2016 12:00PM

Zen65 wrote: »

No, they're not.

Yeah, they are. Have a google for 'women's work flat shoes'. There's a ton of pretty, flattering, smart, professional shoes that have no or low heels.

Zen65 wrote: »

That's not simply my opinion

Yeah it is, though.

PopePalpatine · 14-05-2016 12:02PM

stoplooklisten wrote: »

Yes they have been proven to cause injury, by vogue magazine

Vogue Magazine wrote:

Are Your Flats Causing Your Foot Pain? The Surprising Pitfalls of a Discreet Heel

There are a lot of diagnoses attributed to heels, but there are just as many caused by flats,” explains Chicago-based podiatrist Dr. Megan Leahy, D.P.M. When a heel is too low, or the toe of a shoe too tight, the natural distribution of pressure in a step becomes concentrated and strained, causing injuries that can lead all the way from the toe to the knee, back, hips, and even shoulders.

That article just cites a couple of podiatrists, and doesn't cite ANY scientific papers to back up their claim.

Luckily, I've got time to kill looking through Google Scholar. The most-cited papers there advise against wearing any heels taller than 2 inches, and mention a greater risk of muscular fatigue in the lower legs if high heels are worn.

myshirt · 14-05-2016 12:04PM

What ever happened to the campaign for a compulsory Mini Skirt Mondays and a No Bra Fridays?

Is this what the world has come to now, high heels Tuesday?

Zen65 · 14-05-2016 12:07PM

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Don't wear high heels if you don't want to wear them, and don't bother applying for jobs where you will be expected to wear them.

+1 for that, it's common sense.

(Though I do subscribe to the view that employers should risk-assess whatever 'compulsory' items are included in dress codes - it would be a tragedy if the man/woman who was putting out a small fire at work went up in flames because their outfit was made of flammable material)

stoplooklisten · 14-05-2016 12:11PM

PopePalpatine wrote: »

That article just cites a couple of podiatrists, and doesn't cite ANY scientific papers to back up their claim.

Luckily, I've got time to kill looking through Google Scholar. The most-cited papers there advise against wearing any heels taller than 2 inches, and mention a greater risk of muscular fatigue in the lower legs if high heels are worn.

That doesn't prove or disprove their claim that too low heels can also cause damage.;)

If the upper range is 2 inches what the lowest recommended heel?

whatismyname · 14-05-2016 12:13PM

One of the many things I've learned in life is that there is no official definition of common sense - what will be common sense to one person may be off the wall codswollop to another, and vice versa.

Bullocks · 14-05-2016 12:16PM

myshirt wrote: »

What ever happened to the campaign for a compulsory Mini Skirt Mondays and a No Bra Fridays?

Is this what the world has come to now, high heels Tuesday?

High heels Tuesday would clash for me cos I like to have a "laughing Tuesday "

Zen65 · 14-05-2016 12:17PM

kylith wrote: »

Yeah, they are. Have a google for 'women's work flat shoes'. There's a ton of pretty, flattering, smart, professional shoes that have no or low heels.

I've seen them, and I dislike them. Not to the point where it bothers me in any way, of course, but there isn't a flat among them that I'd consider 'pretty', and depending on the profession in question of course, none that I'd say looked professional for a management consultant to wear.

kylith wrote: »

Yeah it is, though.

You're right, damn it! I should have said "not my opinion alone"

Seriously though, I have interviewed candidates for professional roles for over 30 years, and I cannot recall any woman showing up for interview in flats, including women who wear flats 5 days a week at work. There's no dress code in my company (other than "remember you are expected to appear professional") - so all of those women chose to wears heels because they believed it made them look more professional. In any department where there were both men & women, the women wear a mix of flats & heels. In a department which has no men working there, the women only ever wear heels.

One eyed Jack · 14-05-2016 12:18PM

Zen65 wrote: »

+1 for that, it's common sense.

(Though I do subscribe to the view that employers should risk-assess whatever 'compulsory' items are included in dress codes - it would be a tragedy if the man/woman who was putting out a small fire at work went up in flames because their outfit was made of flammable material)

I'd absolutely agree with the risk assessment element of a dress code. It's of the reasons why hairspray was banned from a place I worked at in the 90's. A girl's hair went up in flames (no skin damage thankfully, it was put out quickly) and she claimed it happened when she was standing too close to the hand dryer in the toilets. It turned out she was smoking in the toilets and she had covered the smoke detector!

osarusan · 14-05-2016 12:20PM

maudgonner wrote: »

Nobody, nobody involved in this case is suggesting banning women from wearing heels. At least as far as I know.

Yes but it is so much easier just to make up things to argue against.

whatismyname · 14-05-2016 12:25PM

It's really so much easier and explains the issue so much more accurately when 'It's your choice not to wear heels. Just don't apply for jobs where wearing them while working is compulsory' is read as 'It's your choice if you choose not to be in pain and choose not to put your health at risk. Just don't apply for jobs where it's compulsory to be in pain and have your health put at risk while doing the job'.

I'd personally prefer if no employer made this type of pain compulsory, nor insist on putting their employees health at risk in this way, but yeah by all means, put the onus on the potential employee just to opt out of applying for jobs which make it compulsory for them to be in pain and have their health put at risk while working

Peregrine · 14-05-2016 12:26PM

Heels are awful on a person's health.

And they look ****ing ridiculous.

London receptionist sent home without pay for refusing to wear heels

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