Was Collins going to continue the war in the North?

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

I guess Michael Collins was a liar too because the British with their long history of murderous colonial treachery couldn't possibly have threatened anyone with war because their intentions were just and good. You just won't hear a bad word about the British Fred will you?

Funny.

FFS, from the same Wikipedia article:


but this was not mentioned as a threat in the Irish memorandum about the close of negotiations, but as a personal remark made by Lloyd George to Robert Barton, and merely a reflection of the reality of any military truce.[14] Barton noted that:

At one time he [Lloyd George] particularly addressed himself to me and said very solemnly that those who were not for peace must take full responsibility for the war that would immediately follow refusal by any Delegate to sign the Articles of Agreement.

And if you read the debate in the Dail, Barton clearly states this was in relation to the North

But I guess our resident shinnerbot won't accept that because the collective says otherwise.

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

Ahh now we see the mask slip. Anyone who is in any way critical of the British is a mindless 'shinnerbot'. What does that make you? You're a British Nationalist of the highest order - you just won't hear a bad word about Britain or the British.

In fact you're such an avowed British Nationalist that you have a hard time accepting that the Irish are a different people to the British and indeed would like to see Ireland back under British administration.

Funny.

Oooh, you lost the argument so resort to the good old ad hominem.

That's pretty pathetic tbh

Junkyard Tom wrote: »

Please don't lump everyone in the north into one group. When you say 'they' what you mean is Unionist politicians generally and the DUP in particular.

Some of them haven't moved on from 1690 never mind having to deal with 21st Century issues.

The SDLP with the exception of Clare Hanna, who abstained, voted against allowing abortion in cases of fatal fetal abnormality, so, yup, Alabama.

Dev and Collins might have patched up had Collins not being killed during the civil war. Cosgrave is held personally responsible for the atrocities that followed and the state that was created. From the Free Staters point of view they were much aggrieved by his death and Griffith's that followed and to make the deeds more difficult were the irregulars attempts to make the country ungovernable and the fragile state moribund.

KomradeBishop wrote: »

In addition, things like when Collins was allegedly responsible for attacking the Four Courts, leading to 1000 years of Irish historical records being blown up due to a secondary explosion from artillery fire - the historical documentation/details surrounding that specific event, seem to be similarly sketchy.

The anti-treaty side occupied the Four Courts from mid-April to late June 1923 when the civil war began .During that time they planted explosives in the Public Records Office containing the chancery scrolls and in the land registry office. Their plan was to set off the explosives to act as a distraction if they were attacked and had to escape. There is a copy of an order from Oscar Traynor (Head of the anti-treaty IRA in Dublin) in the Military Archive which ordered the Four Courts Garrison to set off the explosives if attacked.

Prior to the outbreak of hostilities Eoin MacNeill (professor of Medieval Irish History at UCD, Gaelic Leaguer and former head of the Irish Volunteers) repeatedly pleaded with the commander of the Four Courts garrison Rory O'Connor to move the records to a safe place, O'Connor refused.

Whether or not the fires caused by the shelling caused the explosion or whether it was detonated deliberately is moot, the Anti-treaty side had planned to destroy the records and didn't move them to safety in the 3 months they occupied the Four Courts.

It was an act of cultural vandalism every bit as ignorant as those of ISIS or the Taliban blowing up the Banyam Buddhas.

Fratton Fred wrote: »

The
De Velera wanted to be king himself (which is why he created a presidency with pretty much the exact same powers) of a Catholic state with comely maidens dancing at the crossroads. The last thing he wanted was half a million devout prods getting in the way.
.

This post is breathtakingly ignorant.

Like it or nor DeValera was the democratically elected leader of the country in the 1930s. The constitution he introduced in 1937 is a brilliant document which guaranteed that Ireland would not become a dictatorship by introducing a president whose role it was to intervene should the government attempt to introduce fundamentally undemocratic legislation

In a similar vein it guaranteed the independence of the judiciary (that's why we had to have a referendum on judge pay a few years ago) and the free assembly of the Dail and Seanad.

Bearing in mind that in the 1930s the Nazis created their dictatorship through legal means, Mussolini was in power in Italy, Stalin was in the Soviet Union, the Spanish Civil War was raging and numerous other smaller European were dictatorships - our constitution was the exact opposite of what you claim. It meant that no single individual could dominate the state and made Ireland an independent republic in all but name.

DeValera might have been a bit of a prick, but on this score your wrong.

dresden8 wrote: »

Collins started the civil war on the orders of Churchill. Dying young does wonders for your reputation.

He would have ended it if his life was not cut short by anti treaty forces.