Buying a site with FPP in Rural Area Under Strong Urban Influence

MeadhbhJohnson · 12-05-2016 03:43PM #1

I am currently looking to buy a site with Full Planning Permission and the Agent told me there are no restrictions on the site. However a quick search on Cork CoCo. Planning enquiry system online shows me that the site is in a rural area under strong Urban Influence. Does this mean if we buy the site there is no guarantee we can build on the site as we are not from the area?
I would greatly appreciate some knowledge on this as every avenue I go down I cannot get a definitive answer and this could turn out to be an expensive mistake....thank you!

HelgaWard · 12-05-2016 03:48PM

Ring Cork County Council, have the planning reference number to hand, and they should be clarify the conditions associated with the planning application.

JimmyMW · 12-05-2016 03:58PM

MeadhbhJohnson wrote: »

I am currently looking to buy a site with Full Planning Permission and the Agent told me there are no restrictions on the site. However a quick search on Cork CoCo. Planning enquiry system online shows me that the site is in a rural area under strong Urban Influence. Does this mean if we buy the site there is no guarantee we can build on the site as we are not from the area?
I would greatly appreciate some knowledge on this as every avenue I go down I cannot get a definitive answer and this could turn out to be an expensive mistake....thank you!

Very likely that you would not be applicable by the sounds of it, it would be outlined in the planning conditions in the grant of planning. These are viewable on the planning app

MeadhbhJohnson · 12-05-2016 05:53PM

Thanks Helga, I did ring a couple of times, maybe i've been unlucky with the people I've spoken to but neither of them could clarify for sure.

sydthebeat · 12-05-2016 05:54PM

does cork co co not have the file available for public viewing on the internet?

MeadhbhJohnson · 12-05-2016 05:54PM

Thanks Jimmy, I find it hard to follow the lingo at times on the planning information. I'll relook that again thanks.

MeadhbhJohnson · 12-05-2016 06:05PM

Does anyone know what the term "rural area under strong urban influence" actually means, can't find a definition?

Angry bird · 12-05-2016 09:27PM

Means pretty restricted area for housing designed to cater for locals with a housing need. Look up the rural housing policy in the development for corks interpretation of what this means.

CorkonianBoy · 17-02-2017 05:47PM

I looked at a site for sale that turned out to be designated in a Rural Area Under Strong Urban Influence. The auctioneer told me that the price was much lower as a result of the designation. When I told them that I was not from the local area, they refused to show it and told me I would never get planning permission. OK, seems true so no point in challenging. Site goes sale-agreed within a few weeks. Then, another estate agent told me that the buyer was not from the local area but was going to put the site in the name of a relative, then have the relative get planning permission to build a house that the true owner would move into.
I am thinking of letting the County Council Planning people know about this potential fraud. What do you think? Is this type of behaviour common? I certainly don't want to make an enemy of County Council Planning.

Jofspring · 17-02-2017 05:57PM

It won't be as easy as letting a family member apply for the permission. They will need to prove they are from the area, birth certs, baptismal Certs, utility bills, probably have to put a lot of stuff in their name like possible water schemes, connections, and then will need a local councillor to act on their behalf when going to planning permission. Will also be implications when it comes to mortgaging it (if that's what they are doing). Can't see solicitors standing over it either. I don't think it will be as straight forward as let a family member apply then build on it.

wrmwit · 17-02-2017 06:02PM

MeadhbhJohnson wrote: »

Thanks Helga, I did ring a couple of times, maybe i've been unlucky with the people I've spoken to but neither of them could clarify for sure.

Next time you call, ask to speak to a civil technician in the planning department. Planners in general don't have the time to talk to the general public.

sydthebeat · 17-02-2017 06:10PM

Also, the council will apply a "residency clause" which will state the applicant or a member of the applicants immediate family must be the first occupiers of the dwelling and do so for a minimum of seven years....

Plus. .
I am experiencing cases where the financial institutions are insisting that the person's named on the mortgage are also named on the planning permission. This is new enough though in my experience.

CorkonianBoy · 17-02-2017 06:15PM

Lets assume the relative meets all the local requirements and that the buyer will not need a mortgage. My question then is can they get away with it? I mean who at planning will actually check that the occupiers and the property owner are one and the same? I am guessing everything in writing will be in the name of the local relative. Seems like the agent and the solicitor are all on board with this strategy as it is now designated sale-agreed.

Metric Tensor · 17-02-2017 07:34PM

There is no law being broken until the house is built and someone moves in that contravenes a planning condition (if such a condition exists).

Until then you are just assuming that some conditions of the planning will be broken in future. There's nothing to report at present.

Metric Tensor · 17-02-2017 07:41PM

sydthebeat wrote: »

Plus. .
I am experiencing cases where the financial institutions are insisting that the person's named on the mortgage are also named on the planning permission. This is new enough though in my experience.

Interesting syd. I wonder if this is related to some sort of family law issue?

What if one party applied for planning and that party plus their significant other the applied for the mortgage. That happens quite a bit in my experience.

CorkonianBoy · 17-02-2017 07:45PM

Maybe but there must be laws against fraudulent conveyances meant to circumvent planning laws, I feel sure.
But my question remains - how will the Planning people know if the parties residing in the home are in fact the legal owners of the property? Do they send out inspectors, check mailboxes? Something tells me they may not. And how does planning know if the residents stay in the house for 7 years as a permanent residence?
And another question comes to mind - how could they possibly prohibit the owner from selling the property whenever they feel like it? Like in my scenario, transfer it to their relative who is in actuality the true owner?

JimmyMW · 17-02-2017 07:56PM

CorkonianBoy wrote: »

Lets assume the relative meets all the local requirements and that the buyer will not need a mortgage. My question then is can they get away with it? I mean who at planning will actually check that the occupiers and the property owner are one and the same? I am guessing everything in writing will be in the name of the local relative. Seems like the agent and the solicitor are all on board with this strategy as it is now designated sale-agreed.

Assuming he is a direct family relative, he can live in the house once its complete, the relative can even sell it to him and not be in breach of planning. However if the same person "the relative" goes for planning again in the rural housing control zone for a house for himself for example, he will be refused as his housing need will already have been met, thats what will prevent most people from going down this route.

JimmyMW · 17-02-2017 07:59PM

CorkonianBoy wrote: »

Maybe but there must be laws against fraudulent conveyances meant to circumvent planning laws, I feel sure.
But my question remains - how will the Planning people know if the parties residing in the home are in fact the legal owners of the property? Do they send out inspectors, check mailboxes? Something tells me they may not. And how does planning know if the residents stay in the house for 7 years as a permanent residence?
And another question comes to mind - how could they possibly prohibit the owner from selling the property whenever they feel like it? Like in my scenario, transfer it to their relative who is in actuality the true owner?

A house near me is lying idle with a number of years as the purchaser will need to satisfy the local needs planning condition to purchase the house, a solicitor will advise against the purchase of such a house and a bank will not lend for such a house this will therefore prevent a sale which will be in breach of planning.

CorkonianBoy · 17-02-2017 08:08PM

Jimmy, if true your scenario would violate both the spirit and intent of the zoning designation, in fact making a mockery of it. And restricting the ability of the relative from ever getting planning permission may very well be irrelevant if they have no such intent.
I still argue that either the initial transaction or the planning application, or both, could be considered fraudulent if it is determined that the intent was to circumvent the zoning designation.

Metric Tensor · 17-02-2017 08:10PM

From a purely planning perspective it shouldn't matter who owns the site or who pays for construction of the house. All that matters is that the planning conditions are complied with i.e. that the person mandated on the planning lives in the house.

There is no law that prevents anyone from buying any piece of land. If I bought the site and built the house and then let the applicant live in it for free I don't think any law would be broken ... I could be corrected though.

I get your point re checking on the occupant. I have never seen it checked - but if you so desire you could report them when the wrong person moves in. In theory the council could make them move out.

The enforcement regarding transferring the house is pretty much only enforced by banks during mortgage procedures. A less than ideal situation!!!

CorkonianBoy · 17-02-2017 08:16PM

Metric, I agree that indeed no law may have been broken simply for buying a piece of land. But I think it comes down to intent and the specific circumstances. However, when filing for planning permission, I think that the owner does need to make certain representations regarding their understanding of the zoning designation and the requirements therein, and indicate in writing that it is they who will live in the house, etc. If subsequent investigation as part of the planning approval process would reveal fraud, I hope that the PP would be denied at the very least.

Metric Tensor · 17-02-2017 08:19PM

They do make undertakings and even if they didn't once the condition is on the grant of planning they have to abide by it .... But as I said above - until the wrong person moves in that condition and that undertaking has not been broken.

CorkonianBoy · 17-02-2017 08:24PM

Metric, so you are saying that if, during the planning approval process, information is revealed that shows an intent to violate the intent of the zoning, planning approval cannot then be denied?

Metric Tensor · 17-02-2017 08:30PM

If the LA anticipated fraud they would most likely refuse planning although to be honest it's not their job to judge people's motives - they should only decide on the merit of the application on front of them. Enforcing that decision is the next job ... deciding in advance that the applicant might break the law in future would not be fair.

BUT .... what possible way could you "prove" that someone other than the applicant was going to live in the house?

CorkonianBoy · 17-02-2017 08:47PM

Good points but someone has to uphold the integrity of the planning process so who should it be?
Also, maybe it's not just about who lives in the house but also who puts up the cash, owns the property and/or receives title to the property at a later date.
My real point here is that maybe Planning Council should be told of the possibility that parties to this transaction may be acting in a manner inconsistent with the intent of the zoning designation. Then let them figure out how to investigate. I would be sad if they said they had no authority but it would not surprise me I guess. It's not just about motives. It's about representations made in writing to a government authority that may have legitimate legal consequences.

Metric Tensor · 17-02-2017 08:57PM

Planning Enforcement uphold planning laws but as I keep saying ... no planning law has been broken!

If one is ... eport it to your local planning enforcement officer.

At the moment your argument is a bit like saying that your neighbour just bought a car capable of doing 200kph so you want to report him for speeding.

SmartinMartin · 17-02-2017 09:01PM

You are not buying the site, so why would you try to fook it up for someone else? It sounds like sour grapes to me, rather than a wish to "uphold the integrity of the planning process".

Metric Tensor · 17-02-2017 09:02PM

P.S. You do know that anyone can make an observation during a planning application?

You can write whatever you want in that observation.

The council don't have to agree with it of course ... but you can then follow with an appeal to an bord pleanala if you want.

CorkonianBoy · 17-02-2017 09:10PM

I hear you Metric. But I think lying on a planning application might be a violation of planning law. And letting someone build a house even though Planning knows or suspects they lied on the planning application seems a little crazy. Not that it doesn't happen of course. I am guessing county council planning departments have seen it all. But once the house is built and the wrong tenant moves in, what can planning enforcement do? The toothpaste is already out of the tube!

CorkonianBoy · 17-02-2017 09:21PM

Smartin, Yes, I am a little pissed. If I can't buy this land and build a house because the government wants to reserve it for a local person with a housing need, than that's what should happen. So I would gladly fook it up for someone trying to play games with the planning process and create an uneven playing field for other buyers. It's one thing to request special permissions to build a slightly bigger house or get dispensation for work done in the past but another thing entirely to lie on a planning application. Call me crazy.

Angry bird · 17-02-2017 09:28PM

Planning application stage is when the applicant is assessed under rural housing policy, as in local person with a housing need. This is the time to make it known to the Council, in writing, 20 bills and it is published, including your name and address. So you'd want to be sure about it. Afterwards, I would say the boat has sailed. In my experience, Councillors would be well placed to know the sort of shenanigans that goes on.

Buying a site with FPP in Rural Area Under Strong Urban Influence

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