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What the hell has happened to Smithwicks?

2

Comments

  • #32
    GLaDOS
    Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 23,247 Mod ✭✭✭✭GLaDOS


    Baldy Conscience wrote: »
    I meant "can't" in the sense they haven't a clue how to, not in some legal restrictive sense.

    My dad loves a Smithwicks with a Guinness head, it's quite amusing to watch barman struggle with it :pac:

    Cake, and grief counseling, will be available at the conclusion of the test



  • #33
    Tom1991
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 468 ✭✭Tom1991


    L1011 wrote: »
    NSAI Legal Metrology rules would forbid it.

    It's beer not petrol or diesel.if you can't mix drinks legally we may aswell close every cocktail bar in Ireland.

    A pint is qualified as 568ml and is to served in stamped glasses.Whatever way a customer wants there pint or smithwicks head or Guinness with black current or lime.cordial in a lager is there business after.


  • #34
    BeerNut
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 12,067 Mod ✭✭✭✭BeerNut


    L1011 wrote: »
    They aren't delivering a fixed or even quantifiable measure of either product.
    I'm not arguing about the legality what anyone's doing, I'm just looking for the text of the NSAI rule you've referred to. Do you have a link or a reference?

    My beer blog | Bluesky | My other beer blog



  • #35
    kupus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,151 ✭✭✭kupus


    Vchrist, no more pint of special, half and half, black and tan. The old world is gone and lost forever.


  • #36
    Lovely Bloke
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,748 ✭✭✭✭Lovely Bloke


    Tom1991 wrote: »
    Probably think that Guinness tasted different in the new glass aswell probably?

    what? :confused:


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  • #37
    L1011
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 73,051 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    Tom1991 wrote: »
    It's beer not petrol or diesel.if you can't mix drinks legally we may aswell close every cocktail bar in Ireland.

    A pint is qualified as 568ml and is to served in stamped glasses.Whatever way a customer wants there pint or smithwicks head or Guinness with black current or lime.cordial in a lager is there business after.

    Cocktails are composed of known measures (or are meant to be). Its not mixing drinks that's the issue, its the selling of unknown quantities.
    BeerNut wrote: »
    I'm not arguing about the legality what anyone's doing, I'm just looking for the text of the NSAI rule you've referred to. Do you have a link or a reference?

    Its the entire corpus of legal metrology regulations.

    Basically they are selling a short measure of Smithwicks, regardless of the pint being topped up with another product.

    Does this stop bars doing it? No. Does it make sense? Not really.


  • #38
    irish_goat
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 5,894 Mod ✭✭✭✭irish_goat


    L1011 wrote: »
    Cocktails are composed of known measures (or are meant to be).

    No they're not. Plenty of cocktail bartenders will pour free hand so there's no way of knowing precisely what amount of alcohol you're getting.

    A pub is allowed to sell any measure of beer, hence why a lot of craft beer bars offer 0.3cl glasses of beer.


  • #39
    Tom1991
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 468 ✭✭Tom1991


    L1011 wrote: »
    Cocktails are composed of known measures (or are meant to be). Its not mixing drinks that's the issue, its the selling of unknown quantities.



    Its the entire corpus of legal metrology regulations.

    Basically they are selling a short measure of Smithwicks, regardless of the pint being topped up with another product.

    Does this stop bars doing it? No. Does it make sense? Not really.
    Do you work in the industry or are you trying to put perspective on why some places don't do it.
    A cocktail in most places has a list of ingredients but no proportions specified ie ml measures.


  • #40
    L1011
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 73,051 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    irish_goat wrote: »
    No they're not. Plenty of cocktail bartenders will pour free hand so there's no way of knowing precisely what amount of alcohol you're getting.

    Something being done doesn't mean its legal.
    irish_goat wrote: »
    A pub is allowed to sell any measure of beer, hence why a lot of craft beer bars offer 0.3cl glasses of beer.

    In glasses designed and marked for that amount.

    A Smithwicks glass doesn't have a mark for "510ml, ish, sort of" towards the top.

    Alcoholic drinks have to be sold by actual measures - that is the law.


  • #41
    Tom1991
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 468 ✭✭Tom1991


    L1011 wrote: »
    Something being done doesn't mean its legal.



    In glasses designed and marked for that amount.

    A Smithwicks glass doesn't have a mark for "510ml, ish, sort of" towards the top.

    Alcoholic drinks have to be sold by actual measures - that is the law.
    Yes and a smithwicks with a Guinness head is 568 ml in volume as if it were smithwicks.
    There's also the convention that Guinness and regular smithwicks are almost always the same price.So your not topping off with a cheaper product but an equivalently priced one.So again no short changing has occurred.


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  • #42
    L1011
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 73,051 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    Tom1991 wrote: »
    Yes and a smithwicks with a Guinness head is 568 ml in volume as if it were smithwicks.
    There's also the convention that Guinness and regular smithwicks are almost always the same price.So your not topping off with a cheaper product but an equivalently priced one.So again no short changing has occurred.

    That's not legally relevant though. They failed to sell 568ml of Guinness or indeed any proven measure of Guinness.

    Its pedantic as hell but it is the law. Prosecution would be infinitesimally unlikely also.


  • #43
    irish_goat
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 5,894 Mod ✭✭✭✭irish_goat


    L1011 wrote: »
    In glasses designed and marked for that amount.

    A Smithwicks glass doesn't have a mark for "510ml, ish, sort of" towards the top.

    Alcoholic drinks have to be sold by actual measures - that is the law.

    Pubs are allowed to sell "by the glass". So if they want to serve a "Smithwicks with Guinness head by the pint glass" then it's perfectly fine. Which law states alcoholic drinks have to be sold by actual measures?


  • #44
    L1011
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 73,051 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    irish_goat wrote: »
    Pubs are allowed to sell "by the glass". So if they want to serve a "Smithwicks with Guinness head by the pint glass" then it's perfectly fine. Which law states alcoholic drinks have to be sold by actual measures?

    All the laws surrounding legal metrology back to the Victorian era. And none of them allow "by the glass" with no definition either - "by the glass" for wine will have a defined size on a price list and is often poured using measures now. Metrology Act 1996, various Intoxicating Liquor Acts going back, various Weights & Measures Acts going back, etc, etc. There isn't one single line of legislation that's going to give you the answer.

    There is a reason all glasses have to have calibration marks on them.

    Serving over-measures isn't a crime but under is - and with a fairly hefty punishment if they could be bothered in this type of scenario


  • #45
    irish_goat
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 5,894 Mod ✭✭✭✭irish_goat


    L1011 wrote: »
    All the laws surrounding legal metrology back to the Victorian era. And none of them allow "by the glass" with no definition either.

    There is a reason all glasses have to have calibration marks on them.

    NSAI website explains it, albeit, in not a lot of detail.
    How much can I expect to get if I order a port or sherry in a pub?

    You can expect to get what the publican advertises for sale. Some publicans use the same measure as used for whiskey, gin, vodka etc – 35.5 ml. However, others pour directly into a glass and advertise they sell by glass.

    There is no law to require the publican to sell these drinks by a particular amount but if it is stated that the sale relates to a particular quantity then you are entitled to that amount. If in doubt as what you are paying for ask the publican to explain how he charges.

    http://www.nsai.ie/Our-Services/Measurement/FAQs.aspx


  • #46
    L1011
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 73,051 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    irish_goat wrote: »
    NSAI website explains it, albeit, in not a lot of detail.

    That example is for port and sherry. Not beer, not spirits, not wine - all of which are controlled.

    Being allowed sell port or sherry by the glass without a volume statement does not allow them to sell beer that way.


    I don't have time to waste on this any more - I've pointed you to the huge body of legislation. Selling a sub-568ml volume of Smithwicks at the price of a 568ml volume regardless of what you top it up with is against the law. I doubt it has ever been or ever will be enforced but you will find pubs that refuse to do it.


  • #47
    BeerNut
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 12,067 Mod ✭✭✭✭BeerNut


    You can expect to get what the publican advertises for sale.
    This would be my understanding of it: if you order a pint of Smithwick's with a Guinness head you are entitled to a 568ml mix of Smithwick's and Guinness, but there is no law to specify the proportions beyond that.

    I don't know where L1011 is getting the idea that this is illegal, and I suspect L1011 doesn't know either.

    My beer blog | Bluesky | My other beer blog



  • #48
    L1011
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 73,051 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    BeerNut wrote: »
    This would be my understanding of it: if you order a pint of Smithwick's with a Guinness head you are entitled to a 568ml mix of Smithwick's and Guinness, but there is no law to specify the proportions beyond that.

    I don't know where L1011 is getting the idea that this is illegal, and I suspect L1011 doesn't know either.

    Again, you're quoting an example that specifically refers to port and sherry which do not have metrology rules in place. If you read the actual example fully rather than plucking the bits you want you'll even see it specifies that other products have controlled measures!

    I'm getting it from understanding metrology legislation.


  • #49
    irish_goat
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 5,894 Mod ✭✭✭✭irish_goat


    A quick read of the legislation finds this...
    Metrology Act, 1996 wrote:
    "Subject to subsection (2), any person who sells, or exposes for sale or offers for sale any product by weight, measure or number shall be guilty of an offence if the quantity of goods sold, exposed for sale or offered for sale is less than that purported to be sold, exposed for sale or offered for sale or than corresponds with the price charged on the basis of—

    (a) the total price to be paid for the goods, or

    (b) the stated price per number or unit of measurement, as the case may be, used to determine the total price."

    In my view, no offence is committed as the person did not ask for a full pint of Smithwicks and was not expecting such.


  • #50
    BeerNut
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 12,067 Mod ✭✭✭✭BeerNut


    L1011 wrote: »
    metrology legislation.
    Without actually referring to any particular piece of legislation, this is not meaningful. It's like saying "the law says" or "my dad says" - it's just an assertion.

    I can't find anything on the NSAI site about what you can and can't do with draught beer. The port and sherry example is presumably because measures for these aren't as culturally standardised as they are with spirits and beer, but the same principle applies: you must get what is advertised, and it's OK if that's a pint of Smithwick's with a Guinness head.

    Have I missed something on the NSAI site relating to beer? I genuinely want to know what the law is here.

    My beer blog | Bluesky | My other beer blog



  • #51
    jack presley
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,687 ✭✭✭✭jack presley


    After the last couple of pages, I'd love a pint of Smithwicks now.


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  • #52
    crazyderk
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,061 ✭✭✭crazyderk


    BeerNut wrote: »
    I wouldn't be choosing a beer based on the brand presentation myself, but each to their own. You've noticed that the way Smithwick's is presented has changed recently. It has, and it will change again in the future, and again after that. My advice is to enjoy the beer while you can because they've changed that in the past and might well do so again at some point.

    And if you don't like the glass, ask for a different one.

    I read this and thought of this

    19824822.jpg


  • #53
    BeerNut
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 12,067 Mod ✭✭✭✭BeerNut


    A perfectly sensible way of looking at how breweries operate.

    My beer blog | Bluesky | My other beer blog



  • #54
    Rigor Mortis
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,914 ✭✭✭Rigor Mortis


    jimba wrote: »
    Yeah I get the feeling instead of trying to beat the competition, they are joining em. I believe their place in the market should be by trying to remain one of the big four draught beer options.

    I think that ship sailed a long time ago.

    Tastes differ and all that but Smithwicks are reacting to a market which has abandoned their product in favour of others. As an ale drinker, i am delighted to see more choice on the market. It was always a bit of a pain that all you could get was Smithwicks or if you were lucky McArdles. It is great to finally have some real choice.


  • #55
    Cienciano
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,140 ✭✭✭✭Cienciano


    Pawwed Rig wrote: »
    Harp is another beer that could do with a rebranding.
    I haven't seen Harp in a pub in Ireland in years, do people still sell it? I had some in Belfast and it wasn't as bad as I thought.

    My da said it was massive in the early 80's as it was pretty much the only lager available. They changed the recipe and people stopped drinking it. Then other lagers came into the market and Harp couldn't get the customers back. Not sure how true that is though.


  • #56
    BeerNut
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 12,067 Mod ✭✭✭✭BeerNut


    Touristy pubs tend to have it, alongside Kilkenny. It's what Americans think we drink.

    My beer blog | Bluesky | My other beer blog



  • #57
    m5ex9oqjawdg2i
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,217 ✭✭✭✭m5ex9oqjawdg2i


    Baldy Conscience wrote:
    I meant "can't" in the sense they haven't a clue how to, not in some legal restrictive sense.

    All of them, not a single barman in the entire country is capable of adding a dash of Guinness to a pint of shítwicks? I'd say you're talking absolute rubbish there...


  • #58
    artanevilla
    Moderators, Education Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 11,443 Mod ✭✭✭✭artanevilla


    Smithwicks with a Guinness head is quantifiable, it's a pint of beer, proportion of which doesn't really matter, beer is beer, a pint is a pint.


  • #59
    Sky King
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,431 ✭✭✭Sky King


    artanevilla wrote: »
    Smithwicks with a Guinness head is quantifiable, it's a pint of beer, proportion of which doesn't really matter, beer is beer, a pint is a pint.

    They have different ABVs though which (I guess) would make the excise different?


  • #60
    BeerNut
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 12,067 Mod ✭✭✭✭BeerNut


    Sky King wrote: »
    They have different ABVs though which (I guess) would make the excise different?
    Yes but the excise is calculated on beer brewed, not beer poured, so will be paid separately for the two components.

    My beer blog | Bluesky | My other beer blog



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  • #61
    Cienciano
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,140 ✭✭✭✭Cienciano


    I sometimes get black Russians with a Guinness head, I'll definitely be reporting these places to the gardai from now on.


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