What the hell has happened to Smithwicks?

jimba

Smithwicks has been my pint of choice for the last few years. I am therefore horrified to see the branding change very recently.

First of all, you will notice that the taps in pubs for Both Normal and Pale varieties are almost the same, with white writing distinguishing the two. No longer the traditional wine coloured tap.

Second, after you declare "a pint of Smithwicks, please" you are asked by the bar lady/man would you like Smithwicks red ale or pale ale. "Eh...normal Smithwicks please".

And to add insult to this great calamity, you are presented with your pint in a new shape of glass. Like some craft beer giant wine glass-yoke. Most unmanly.

What is happening to this fantastic pint? It has gone all Hipster on us.

Todd Toddington III

Tastier Craft beer, that's what's happened.

BeerNut

I wouldn't be choosing a beer based on the brand presentation myself, but each to their own. You've noticed that the way Smithwick's is presented has changed recently. It has, and it will change again in the future, and again after that. My advice is to enjoy the beer while you can because they've changed that in the past and might well do so again at some point.

And if you don't like the glass, ask for a different one.

jimba

Todd Toddington III wrote: »

Tastier Craft beer, that's what's happened.

Yeah I get the feeling instead of trying to beat the competition, they are joining em. I believe their place in the market should be by trying to remain one of the big four draught beer options.

L1011

jimba wrote: »

Yeah I get the feeling instead of trying to beat the competition, they are joining em. I believe their place in the market should be by trying to remain one of the big four draught beer options.

It hasn't been one of the big four for decades. I would imagine that there could easily be 5 or 6 lagers (and Guinness) ahead of it in sales by a decent margin.

Ask for it in a Guinness glass if you wish.

jimba

L1011 wrote: »

It hasn't been one of the big four for decades. I would imagine that there could easily be 5 or 6 lagers (and Guinness) ahead of it in sales by a decent margin.

Ask for it in a Guinness glass if you wish.

Well yeah. Gee good thinking :rolleyes:

Do you not think most people who drink Smithwicks would prefer a normal pint glass over an oversized awkward wine glass?

L1011

jimba wrote: »

Well yeah. Gee good thinking :rolleyes:

Do you not think most people who drink Smithwicks would prefer a normal pint glass over an oversized awkward wine glass?

Very few people drink it anymore - its not really worth their while worrying about the remaining drinkers if they can't get any more. Its extremely old image (reinforced by the ads last time it was properly advertised) would not attract new customers.

TheChizler

Is that what happened? Saw this the other night and got excited cause I thought they'd released a new drink.

L1011

TheChizler wrote: »

Is that what happened? Saw this the other night and got excited cause I thought they'd released a new drink.

They have, a pale ale which is available in a fair few pubs (particularly those that have decided to go with Diageo and Heineken's fraft offerings full-on).

Pawwed Rig

Was always a tasty enough beer especially when compared to some of the other mainstream beers which can often be bland imo. It always suffered from it's image as a pensioners drink though so I would suspect that the rebranding is an attempt to combat this.
The drinks industry is very competitive so you adapt or die.
Harp is another beer that could do with a rebranding.

PaulieBoy

A Smithwicks with a Guinness head. Job done. The good old days!

Lovely Bloke

PaulieBoy wrote: »

A Smithwicks with a Guinness head. Job done. The good old days!

barmen cannot make this any more.

Baldy Conscience

Baldy Conscience wrote: »

barmen cannot make this any more.

Really? Since when?

PaulieBoy

Deleted User wrote: »

Really? Since when?

Probably too complicated for today's breed of bartender. That or legal reasons��

Sky King

jimba wrote: »

Second, after you declare "a pint of Smithwicks, please" you are asked by the bar lady/man would you like Smithwicks red ale or pale ale. "Eh...normal Smithwicks please".

What about Smithwick's Blonde?

TheChizler

L1011 wrote: »

TheChizler wrote: »

Is that what happened? Saw this the other night and got excited cause I thought they'd released a new drink.

They have, a pale ale which is available in a fair few pubs (particularly those that have decided to go with Diageo and Heineken's fraft offerings full-on).

Been drinking that a few years. It's the new tap and Red Ale sign that threw me.

jack presley

There was a stage a few years back when it was very hard to find bottles of Smithwicks in off licences.

At least with this rebranding that isn't the case anymore.

Sam Kade

Smithwicks I used to drink it one time, pure dyke water.

Pawwed Rig

Sam Kade wrote: »

Smithwicks I used to drink it one time, pure dyke water.

Why did you drink it then? If you didn't like it surely you tried it once and then moved on? 'used to drink it one time' would imply a sustained period.

hardCopy

It makes a lot of sense for them. I'm a pretty regular Smithwicks drinker now but came to it by way of craft red ales like Rebel Red and Sunburnt Red. Rebel Red is pretty easy to get on tap now but a couple of years ago Smithwicks was the closest thing I could get in a lot of pubs. Why wouldn't their marketing team tap into an explosion in popularity of red ales?

SmartinMartin

Their pale ale is superb

L1011

Deleted User wrote: »

Really? Since when?

NSAI Legal Metrology rules would forbid it.

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

Harp is another beer that could do with a rebranding.

Diageo seem to have decided that HH13 is their sole lager now - can't see Harp surviving outside its heartlands

BeerNut

L1011 wrote: »

NSAI Legal Metrology rules would forbid it.

Link?

ciaran76

PaulieBoy wrote: »

A Smithwicks with a Guinness head. Job done. The good old days!

Slightly off topic but I was drinking Hophouse 13 with a Guinness head in the Guinness brewery recently.

L1011

BeerNut wrote: »

Link?

They aren't delivering a fixed or even quantifiable measure of either product.

Sky King

L1011 wrote: »

They aren't delivering a fixed or even quantifiable measure of either product.

What about a shandy? Or a 'snakebite' (beer and cider)?

L1011

Sky King wrote: »

What about a shandy? Or a 'snakebite' (beer and cider)?

All similarly affected - although for a snakebite you can fudge it by serving two halves and an empty full glass (and a table load of bar mats!)

Doesn't stop many places actually doing it though.

Lovely Bloke

I meant "can't" in the sense they haven't a clue how to, not in some legal restrictive sense.

Sam Kade

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

Why did you drink it then? If you didn't like it surely you tried it once and then moved on? 'used to drink it one time' would imply a sustained period.

I started drinking harp and it would cut the stomach out of me the following day, smithwicks was easier on the stomach but didn't taste great. This was back in 1983 when there wasn't much choice, I'd say I drank it for two years, it was the lesser of two evils. I didn't look back since I got used to drinking Guinness.

smallgarden

Ive still got it in places with a guinness style head but assumed it came like that as only started drinking it recently. Its like water in some bars. I find rebel red can be a little sweet

Tom1991

Baldy Conscience wrote: »

barmen cannot make this any more.

You mean the mystical splash of guinness in a pint of smithwicks that literally any goon can do.
Probably think that Guinness tasted different in the new glass aswell probably?

GLaDOS

Baldy Conscience wrote: »

I meant "can't" in the sense they haven't a clue how to, not in some legal restrictive sense.

My dad loves a Smithwicks with a Guinness head, it's quite amusing to watch barman struggle with it :pac:

Tom1991

L1011 wrote: »

NSAI Legal Metrology rules would forbid it.

It's beer not petrol or diesel.if you can't mix drinks legally we may aswell close every cocktail bar in Ireland.

A pint is qualified as 568ml and is to served in stamped glasses.Whatever way a customer wants there pint or smithwicks head or Guinness with black current or lime.cordial in a lager is there business after.

BeerNut

L1011 wrote: »

They aren't delivering a fixed or even quantifiable measure of either product.

I'm not arguing about the legality what anyone's doing, I'm just looking for the text of the NSAI rule you've referred to. Do you have a link or a reference?

kupus

Vchrist, no more pint of special, half and half, black and tan. The old world is gone and lost forever.

Lovely Bloke

Tom1991 wrote: »

Probably think that Guinness tasted different in the new glass aswell probably?

what?

L1011

Tom1991 wrote: »

It's beer not petrol or diesel.if you can't mix drinks legally we may aswell close every cocktail bar in Ireland.

A pint is qualified as 568ml and is to served in stamped glasses.Whatever way a customer wants there pint or smithwicks head or Guinness with black current or lime.cordial in a lager is there business after.

Cocktails are composed of known measures (or are meant to be). Its not mixing drinks that's the issue, its the selling of unknown quantities.

BeerNut wrote: »

I'm not arguing about the legality what anyone's doing, I'm just looking for the text of the NSAI rule you've referred to. Do you have a link or a reference?

Its the entire corpus of legal metrology regulations.

Basically they are selling a short measure of Smithwicks, regardless of the pint being topped up with another product.

Does this stop bars doing it? No. Does it make sense? Not really.

irish_goat

L1011 wrote: »

Cocktails are composed of known measures (or are meant to be).

No they're not. Plenty of cocktail bartenders will pour free hand so there's no way of knowing precisely what amount of alcohol you're getting.

A pub is allowed to sell any measure of beer, hence why a lot of craft beer bars offer 0.3cl glasses of beer.

Tom1991

L1011 wrote: »

Cocktails are composed of known measures (or are meant to be). Its not mixing drinks that's the issue, its the selling of unknown quantities.



Its the entire corpus of legal metrology regulations.

Basically they are selling a short measure of Smithwicks, regardless of the pint being topped up with another product.

Does this stop bars doing it? No. Does it make sense? Not really.

Do you work in the industry or are you trying to put perspective on why some places don't do it.
A cocktail in most places has a list of ingredients but no proportions specified ie ml measures.

L1011

irish_goat wrote: »

No they're not. Plenty of cocktail bartenders will pour free hand so there's no way of knowing precisely what amount of alcohol you're getting.

Something being done doesn't mean its legal.

irish_goat wrote: »

A pub is allowed to sell any measure of beer, hence why a lot of craft beer bars offer 0.3cl glasses of beer.

In glasses designed and marked for that amount.

A Smithwicks glass doesn't have a mark for "510ml, ish, sort of" towards the top.

Alcoholic drinks have to be sold by actual measures - that is the law.

Tom1991

L1011 wrote: »

Something being done doesn't mean its legal.



In glasses designed and marked for that amount.

A Smithwicks glass doesn't have a mark for "510ml, ish, sort of" towards the top.

Alcoholic drinks have to be sold by actual measures - that is the law.

Yes and a smithwicks with a Guinness head is 568 ml in volume as if it were smithwicks.
There's also the convention that Guinness and regular smithwicks are almost always the same price.So your not topping off with a cheaper product but an equivalently priced one.So again no short changing has occurred.

L1011

Tom1991 wrote: »

Yes and a smithwicks with a Guinness head is 568 ml in volume as if it were smithwicks.
There's also the convention that Guinness and regular smithwicks are almost always the same price.So your not topping off with a cheaper product but an equivalently priced one.So again no short changing has occurred.

That's not legally relevant though. They failed to sell 568ml of Guinness or indeed any proven measure of Guinness.

Its pedantic as hell but it is the law. Prosecution would be infinitesimally unlikely also.

irish_goat

L1011 wrote: »

In glasses designed and marked for that amount.

A Smithwicks glass doesn't have a mark for "510ml, ish, sort of" towards the top.

Alcoholic drinks have to be sold by actual measures - that is the law.

Pubs are allowed to sell "by the glass". So if they want to serve a "Smithwicks with Guinness head by the pint glass" then it's perfectly fine. Which law states alcoholic drinks have to be sold by actual measures?

L1011

irish_goat wrote: »

Pubs are allowed to sell "by the glass". So if they want to serve a "Smithwicks with Guinness head by the pint glass" then it's perfectly fine. Which law states alcoholic drinks have to be sold by actual measures?

All the laws surrounding legal metrology back to the Victorian era. And none of them allow "by the glass" with no definition either - "by the glass" for wine will have a defined size on a price list and is often poured using measures now. Metrology Act 1996, various Intoxicating Liquor Acts going back, various Weights & Measures Acts going back, etc, etc. There isn't one single line of legislation that's going to give you the answer.

There is a reason all glasses have to have calibration marks on them.

Serving over-measures isn't a crime but under is - and with a fairly hefty punishment if they could be bothered in this type of scenario

irish_goat

L1011 wrote: »

All the laws surrounding legal metrology back to the Victorian era. And none of them allow "by the glass" with no definition either.

There is a reason all glasses have to have calibration marks on them.

NSAI website explains it, albeit, in not a lot of detail.

How much can I expect to get if I order a port or sherry in a pub?

You can expect to get what the publican advertises for sale. Some publicans use the same measure as used for whiskey, gin, vodka etc – 35.5 ml. However, others pour directly into a glass and advertise they sell by glass.

There is no law to require the publican to sell these drinks by a particular amount but if it is stated that the sale relates to a particular quantity then you are entitled to that amount. If in doubt as what you are paying for ask the publican to explain how he charges.

http://www.nsai.ie/Our-Services/Measurement/FAQs.aspx

L1011

irish_goat wrote: »

NSAI website explains it, albeit, in not a lot of detail.

That example is for port and sherry. Not beer, not spirits, not wine - all of which are controlled.

Being allowed sell port or sherry by the glass without a volume statement does not allow them to sell beer that way.


I don't have time to waste on this any more - I've pointed you to the huge body of legislation. Selling a sub-568ml volume of Smithwicks at the price of a 568ml volume regardless of what you top it up with is against the law. I doubt it has ever been or ever will be enforced but you will find pubs that refuse to do it.

BeerNut

You can expect to get what the publican advertises for sale.

This would be my understanding of it: if you order a pint of Smithwick's with a Guinness head you are entitled to a 568ml mix of Smithwick's and Guinness, but there is no law to specify the proportions beyond that.

I don't know where L1011 is getting the idea that this is illegal, and I suspect L1011 doesn't know either.

L1011

BeerNut wrote: »

This would be my understanding of it: if you order a pint of Smithwick's with a Guinness head you are entitled to a 568ml mix of Smithwick's and Guinness, but there is no law to specify the proportions beyond that.

I don't know where L1011 is getting the idea that this is illegal, and I suspect L1011 doesn't know either.

Again, you're quoting an example that specifically refers to port and sherry which do not have metrology rules in place. If you read the actual example fully rather than plucking the bits you want you'll even see it specifies that other products have controlled measures!

I'm getting it from understanding metrology legislation.

irish_goat

A quick read of the legislation finds this...

Metrology Act, 1996 wrote:

"Subject to subsection (2), any person who sells, or exposes for sale or offers for sale any product by weight, measure or number shall be guilty of an offence if the quantity of goods sold, exposed for sale or offered for sale is less than that purported to be sold, exposed for sale or offered for sale or than corresponds with the price charged on the basis of—

(a) the total price to be paid for the goods, or

(b) the stated price per number or unit of measurement, as the case may be, used to determine the total price."

In my view, no offence is committed as the person did not ask for a full pint of Smithwicks and was not expecting such.

BeerNut

L1011 wrote: »

metrology legislation.

Without actually referring to any particular piece of legislation, this is not meaningful. It's like saying "the law says" or "my dad says" - it's just an assertion.

I can't find anything on the NSAI site about what you can and can't do with draught beer. The port and sherry example is presumably because measures for these aren't as culturally standardised as they are with spirits and beer, but the same principle applies: you must get what is advertised, and it's OK if that's a pint of Smithwick's with a Guinness head.

Have I missed something on the NSAI site relating to beer? I genuinely want to know what the law is here.

jack presley

After the last couple of pages, I'd love a pint of Smithwicks now.