How much do we respect a culture if it demeans others

steddyeddy · 09-05-2016 08:42AM #1

A member of our project team is from Sri Lanka and although he's a lovely guy he still puts a lot of faith in his country's caste system. He's a scientist and frankly I don't think he should believe in such nonsense. Especially if that belief is about perceived cultures.

A girl in the institute here is from Saudia Arabia and seems to think the segregation of women is justified based on an old book.

Now I'll be honest I think segregation and discrimination and BS and should be tackled in polite society. My colleagues and I had a debate on whether it's right to challenge a person's whole culture. I think it's right to do so if that aspect of their culture is based on hate or denigration. In other words I don't think culture should get a free pass. The Orange Order spread bigotry in northern Ireland and used the word culture as a some sort of defence. We shouldn't be afraid of insulting someone's culture if it means pointing out wrongdoing.

I don't think we should automatically challenge people on aspects of their culture. In fact I think that sort of behaviour belongs in the "warning signs someone's a tosser" thread.

The Sri Lankan dude moved to North India when he was a kid and during lab time he was talking about the caste system in a manner which led me to think he was looking for someone to challenge it. He said his father was a wealthy man (Indian) who used to walk on his servants (lower caste) in order to avoid walking on an animal that was on the floor (he was an animal lover apparently). The Sri Lankan dude when challenged was saying the caste system is part of his culture and it's not a matter of right or wrong just a different culture.

So basically this is where I was going when I started the thread. I don't want to call people out on things because they are from a different culture. I'm wondering to we have a right to criticise that culture if it has beliefs that demean another group of people or does it get a free pass because it is someone's culture?

Joxer_Daly · 09-05-2016 08:46AM

Where is this? If it's in Ireland/Europe then they can **** off. If it's outside of Europe/the west then you probably just have to suck it up. When in Rome and all that.

steddyeddy · 09-05-2016 08:47AM

Joxer_Daly wrote: »

Where is this? If it's in Ireland/Europe then they can **** off. If it's outside of Europe/the west then you probably just have to suck it up. When in Rome and all that.

I'm based in the UK right now.

MarkR · 09-05-2016 08:53AM

I'd choose yakult over actimel, it just looks more efficient.

kneemos · 09-05-2016 08:57AM

MarkR wrote: »

I'd choose yakult over actimel, it just looks more efficient.

yakult.

biko · 09-05-2016 09:01AM

I think it's right to challenge their culture if it clashes with yours. They sure as hell would do it if you were in their country.

If no-one ever challenged things, how would they change (hopefully improve)?

Fire away and let the PC brigade wring their hands in anxiousness.

Joxer_Daly · 09-05-2016 09:09AM

steddyeddy wrote: »

I'm based in the UK right now.

In that case I'd keep shtum.

looksee · 09-05-2016 09:09AM

Right on! And I know someone who believes that its ok to discriminate against children getting an education because they are not signed on to the majority religion. And a woman who believes that she should not be allowed to have any authority in her religion, because that is a man's role. I also know someone who thinks that religious beliefs should dictate decisions in medicine and politics. Its all a disgrace!!!

thattequilagirl · 09-05-2016 09:13AM

I think you can challenge aspects of a culture that don't fit with modern Western life without challenging the culture as a whole e.g. I don't care what religion you are you have no right to gay bash, but if you want to pray 5 times a day or say the Angelus at 6 o clock I don't really care as long as it doesn't impact me.

steddyeddy · 09-05-2016 09:15AM

thattequilagirl wrote: »

I think you can challenge aspects of a culture that don't fit with modern Western life without challenging the culture as a whole e.g. I don't care what religion you are you have no right to gay bash, but if you want to pray 5 times a day or say the Angelus at 6 o clock I don't really care as long as it doesn't impact me.

Well in the case of the caste system guy it did effect our team.

gandalf · 09-05-2016 09:20AM

With the caste system guy start treating him differently. If he complains then just say you're practising what he is preaching, same for the Saudi women. 99 times out of a 100 these people change their spots when they aren't top of the pile any longer.

Permabear · 09-05-2016 09:23AM

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steddyeddy · 09-05-2016 09:26AM

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

Once again dude you are displaying an inability to read posts.

Pawwed Rig · 09-05-2016 09:29AM

I don't see any reason to respect anyones culture or religion where it does not equally respect each member of that culture or religion.
This essentially rules out a large proportion of the world.

steddyeddy · 09-05-2016 09:29AM

Just to reiterate my the sentiment of my title guys I'm only wondering how much you have to respect beliefs that denigrate others e.g those that think gay people are evil or that women are lesser. Not how much should we randomly destroy other cultural beliefs.

AtomicHorror · 09-05-2016 09:33AM

steddyeddy wrote: »

We shouldn't be afraid of insulting someone's culture if it means pointing out wrongdoing.

I would add the caveat that we shouldn't be afraid if we can see that the challenge/insult has the desired effect (diminishing the undesirable cultural trait). In some cases this approach may well work, but in others it may lead to a defensive or perhaps even more extreme stance. A lot of cultures- particularly religious ones- seem to thrive off the idea of their being under attack.

I'm not saying the Dawkins-style confrontation and/or ridicule can't work, but it's evidently not a magic bullet.

In my view, the responsibility of a liberal culture is to create an environment which unambiguously demonstrates to members of another culture that 1) our way is materially better, 2) your can join our culture and be treated the same as we are, and 3) if you join our culture we will protect you from reprisals from your previous culture.

I think we're completely failing on points 2 and 3, and sometimes on point 1 as well.

K-9 · 09-05-2016 09:34AM

steddyeddy wrote: »

A girl in the institute here is from Saudia Arabia and seems to think the segregation of women is justified based on an old book.

As Yes Minister put it:
Civil Servant - "They stone women who commit adultery in West Yemen"
Sir Humpbrey - "Whereas our women commit adultery when they are stoned"

If it's their religion not a whole lot you can do about it, we used to do stupid things when Catholicism had a grip of this country, eat fish on Friday to doing the odd Jewish pogrom.

Speedwell · 09-05-2016 09:34AM

It is unfortunately typical of a member of an oppressive system who benefits or has benefited from that system to defend it, because it is part of their identity and "made them who they are today". It is equally unfortunate and equally typical for a member of an oppressive system who has been the victim of oppression to defend it, and for exactly the same reasons.

Bankers defend the excesses of capitalism because they benefit, of course, but members of the Tea Party in the US defend it because they equate the capability of "rising to the top" as a moral virtue and aspire to become one of the oppressors. There's a quip going around to the effect that Americans are all "temporarily embarrassed millionaires", and as an American, I can tell you this is nothing but the god-honest truth. When I was poor, I blamed myself, not the oppressive system.

You see this in religion as well, as other posters have pointed out. When things are going well with you, you are enjoying the favor of God because you are good. But when things are going badly with you, you are enduring the wrath of God because you are bad. Nobody gets around to blaming God for being unfair.

From an inside viewpoint, God is never unfair, and "the system" is always perfect, and "the man" is always right. Your friend is going to have to learn to apply his scientific critical thinking to the rest of his worldview. It is all right to point out where he is applying emotional and uncritical reasoning, I think, but not to the level of offense or harassment (and only he can determine that level). In general, injustice should never go unchallenged, because not challenging it is usually a sign of tacit approval. But a cool, well-spoken word can have a lot of impact; being emotional about the subject (including being disgusted or offended) can really turn him off.

suicide_circus · 09-05-2016 09:37AM

Which is the more righteous side of the politically correct coin?

a. to accept and celebrate cultural and religious differences even when they include inequality, segregation and bigotry?

b. to challenge inequality, segregation and bigotry even when they they are packaged in the guise of culture and religion?

Speedwell · 09-05-2016 09:40AM

suicide_circus wrote: »

Which is the more righteous side of the politically correct coin?

a. to accept and celebrate cultural and religious differences even when they include inequality, segregation and bigotry?

b. to challenge inequality, segregation and bigotry even when they they are packaged in the guise of culture and religion?

I take it that's a rhetorical question? I think the focus of the discussion at the moment is not whether, but how, to challenge injustice, how to understand its source and psychology, and what methods might be most effective.

People are not free to believe whatever they want. I am not free to believe that green tea and garlic are going to cure my child's meningitis. I am not free to believe that dropped items fall up. People are not in general free to believe that it is right to cause harm to other people.

cowboyBuilder · 09-05-2016 09:42AM

steddyeddy wrote: »

I'm based in the UK right now.

ah well , the UK ... biggest Nazi police state of all .

How anyone can live under that regime is beyond me ... good luck..

Speedwell · 09-05-2016 09:43AM

cowboyBuilder wrote: »

ah well , the UK ... biggest Nazi police state of all .

How anyone can live under that regime is beyond me ... good luck..

Good Godwin, Batman.

Permabear · 09-05-2016 09:46AM

This post has been deleted.

suicide_circus · 09-05-2016 09:47AM

Speedwell wrote: »

I am not free to believe that dropped items fall up.

Why not?

Speedwell · 09-05-2016 09:49AM

suicide_circus wrote: »

Why not?

Try it out and see how you fare

valoren · 09-05-2016 09:51AM

The key thing is to affirm your own beliefs in an assertive way and not being an asshole about it.
You would make the point that you yourself don't believe in a "Them and Us" social system based on ethnicity. You are happy to live as you are.

In this case, you might ask why he believes in the caste system as you are unfamiliar with it yourself. You wouldn't go around ridiculing the person as when you challenge beliefs aggressively you only wind up reaffirming that person's belief.

It's like saying to a deeply religious person that their religion is a load of BS. You would just reaffirm their own faith, you are the devil, you are tempting them, they must keep their faith strong etc etc.

If a culture is brazenly flaunted in an opposing culture, then you run the risk of the cry bully.
Where the very act of questioning is automatically deemed as an attack on them.

Permabear · 09-05-2016 09:53AM

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Permabear · 09-05-2016 10:04AM

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One eyed Jack · 09-05-2016 10:07AM

steddyeddy wrote: »

A member of our project team is from Sri Lanka and although he's a lovely guy he still puts a lot of faith in his country's caste system. He's a scientist and frankly I don't think he should believe in such nonsense. Especially if that belief is about perceived cultures.

A girl in the institute here is from Saudia Arabia and seems to think the segregation of women is justified based on an old book.

Now I'll be honest I think segregation and discrimination and BS and should be tackled in polite society. My colleagues and I had a debate on whether it's right to challenge a person's whole culture. I think it's right to do so if that aspect of their culture is based on hate or denigration. In other words I don't think culture should get a free pass. The Orange Order spread bigotry in northern Ireland and used the word culture as a some sort of defence. We shouldn't be afraid of insulting someone's culture if it means pointing out wrongdoing.

I don't see what insulting people's cultural background ever achieves if your aim is to have them question their cultural values. The examples you give above are fairly benign, and I personally wouldn't be getting any way bent out of shape about them.

I prefer to lead by example, so if you want people to learn what it is not to be ignorant, show them then what it is not to be ignorant, and hope that they'll learn from your example, while at the same time showing them that you're willing and open to learning more about their culture and values.

MRnotlob606 · 09-05-2016 10:09AM

My favourite teddy bear as a child was stuffed dinosaur.It was with me in my imaginations

MRnotlob606 · 09-05-2016 10:11AM

My father played tennis with Adolf Eichman

How much do we respect a culture if it demeans others

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