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DART+ (DART Expansion)

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    #3182
    LeinsterDub
    Registered Users Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭LeinsterDub


    marno21 wrote: »
    New Ross needs its bypass as much as Dublin needs Metro North and Dublin Underground. The point is both should be proceeding, not starving the funding for crucial transport projects.

    In a case where we don't have money for both we should be prioritising the project that will benefit the most people and generate the best roi.


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    #3183
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    murphaph wrote: »
    Time for Dublin and Cork to push for their own directly elected mayor with executive powers including tax raising and spending. Only then will the lunacy end.
    There is only so much money to go around. Dublin and Cork are leading the abolishment of water charges. Charges that were for necessary water infrastructure that made sense.

    Incidentally almost all people outside the cities and towns always have and continue to pay for their own water infrastructure.

    The money is still required for that upgrade or the pipes will stop flowing but it will now likely come from other capital projects instead. I suppose if Dublin/Cork is to get new water infrastructure or the Dart Underground/M20 then it will be an easy choice for the government to make. There certainly won't be the money for all.

    Maybe if those protesters were presented with a trade off between DU/M20 v paying your water bills things might of been different.


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    #3184
    Sam Russell
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,455 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    Deleted User wrote: »
    There is only so much money to go around. Dublin and Cork are leading the abolishment of water charges. Charges that were for necessary water infrastructure that made sense.

    Incidentally almost all people outside the cities and towns always have and continue to pay for their own water infrastructure.

    The money is still required for that upgrade or the pipes will stop flowing but it will now likely come from other capital projects instead. I suppose if Dublin/Cork is to get new water infrastructure or the Dart Underground/M20 then it will be an easy choice for the government to make. There certainly won't be the money for all.

    Maybe if those protesters were presented with a trade off between DU/M20 v paying your water bills things might of been different.

    The trade off does not exist. DU is in the €billions, the water charges were only in the €hundred millions per year. Road tax might have to go up to pay for water - that is where it went anyway.


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    #3185
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Sam Russell wrote: »
    The trade off does not exist. DU is in the €billions, the water charges were only in the €hundred millions per year. Road tax might have to go up to pay for water - that is where it went anyway.

    Except that DU is a once off project for Billions. Irish Water is hundreds of millions of tax income every year that was destined for infrastructure, which no longer exists. The people of Dublin and Cork voted with there feet against investment in infrastructure, it might of been water infrastructure but it still has to be paid for.


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    #3186
    Sam Russell
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,455 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    The funding for DU has to come from an EU backed low interest infrastructure fund - otherwise it will never happen. We built motorways this way, and I think it is the only way the government will go ahead with it. The adverse position that politicians have on CIE prevents them seeing the advantages socially and economically with the project.


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    #3187
    annfield1978
    Registered Users Posts: 566 ✭✭✭annfield1978


    NTA/ TII procuring a Consultant to review collectively DART Underground and New Metro North's Tunnel/ Station Configuration against international best practice.


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    #3188
    murphaph
    Registered Users Posts: 19,018 ✭✭✭✭murphaph


    annfield1978 wrote: »
    NTA/ TII procuring a Consultant to review collectively DART Underground and New Metro North's Tunnel/ Station Configuration against international best practice. Report back within 4 months of appointment
    It's like 1975 all over again. They'll never build a damn thing. They should just admit it and at least stop wasting money on reports that end up in the bin.


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    #3189
    Grandeeod
    Registered Users Posts: 12,122 ✭✭✭✭Grandeeod


    murphaph wrote: »
    It's like 1975 all over again. They'll never build a damn thing. They should just admit it and at least stop wasting money on reports that end up in the bin.

    Ya gotta love it!:D

    At this stage, I feel sorry for the younger generation who still believe all this talk about consultants and plans and sh1t.:rolleyes:


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    #3190
    Reuben1210
    Registered Users Posts: 374 ✭✭Reuben1210


    annfield1978 wrote: »
    NTA/ TII procuring a Consultant to review collectively DART Underground and New Metro North's Tunnel/ Station Configuration against international best practice. Report back within 4 months of appointment

    What is the source? do you have a link?


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    #3191
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users Posts: 34,365 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    marno21 wrote: »
    New Ross needs its bypass as much as Dublin needs Metro North and Dublin Underground.

    Are you being even remotely serious?
    Deleted User wrote: »
    Dublin and Cork are leading the abolishment of water charges.

    You'll find that most of the people who paid their Irish Water charges live in Dublin and Cork.

    Spineless politicians have caved in to a very vocal minority.

    Fingal County Council are certainly not competent to be making decisions about the most important piece of infrastructure on the island. They need to stick to badly designed cycle lanes and deciding on whether Mrs Murphy can have her kitchen extension.



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    #3192
    Charles Babbage
    Registered Users Posts: 5,571 ✭✭✭Charles Babbage


    Sam Russell wrote: »
    The funding for DU has to come from an EU backed low interest infrastructure fund - otherwise it will never happen. We built motorways this way, and I think it is the only way the government will go ahead with it. The adverse position that politicians have on CIE prevents them seeing the advantages socially and economically with the project.

    The Irish government recently sold a 100 year bond for 2.35% and is selling short term paper for 1% odd. The cost of funds is not the issue here, although it is likely the EU would lend funds for this.


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    #3193
    Carawaystick
    Registered Users Posts: 8,779 ✭✭✭Carawaystick


    Deleted User wrote: »
    There is only so much money to go around. Dublin and Cork are leading the abolishment of water charges. Charges that were for necessary water infrastructure that made sense.

    How much Development Levy money was collected in Dublin or Cork, which would have funded necessary infrastructure?

    How much do IW charge commercial/non-residential concerns for their fresh water/ waste water treatment?


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    #3194
    marno21
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,371 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    Hotblack Desiato wrote: »
    Are you being even remotely serious?

    I'm being very serious. Day after day New Ross is jammed with large volumes of traffic, what happens if the bridge ever collapses?

    Dublin & New Ross are both transport deficient. Both need solutions (N25 & MN/DU) as much as the other.


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    #3195
    Sam Russell
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,455 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    Well New Ross is getting its bypass, but Dublin is not getting its DU, nor its MN, nor its Airport link.

    But there is a New Ross in the Dept. of Transport.


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    #3196
    strassenwo!f
    Registered Users Posts: 1,512 ✭✭✭strassenwo!f


    annfield1978 wrote: »
    NTA/ TII procuring a Consultant to review collectively DART Underground and New Metro North's Tunnel/ Station Configuration against international best practice.

    No source has been provided for this, as mentioned above, but if it is true it would certainly be sensible.

    In the earlier planning applications for railway orders for these projects, The RPA stated that there were a number of locations in the city suitable for interchange of these projects; Irish Rail said that only one of the options they'd looked at was suitable.

    This glaring discrepancy in the stories from two major state companies about two major projects - either of which would be very comfortably the largest infrastructure project the state has ever been involved in - was either missed or ignored by An Bord Pleanala.

    There was obviously a lack of communication between Irish Rail and the RPA about this interchange issue, and between them and their superiors (the Department of Transport) who allowed them both to proceed for a railway order with such obviously disparate stories.

    It also doesn't reflect well on An Bord Pleanala, who of course waved both projects through.


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    #3197
    Zebra3
    Registered Users Posts: 13,860 ✭✭✭✭Zebra3


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Except that DU is a once off project for Billions. Irish Water is hundreds of millions of tax income every year that was destined for infrastructure, which no longer exists. The people of Dublin and Cork voted with there feet against investment in infrastructure, it might of been water infrastructure but it still has to be paid for.

    Nobody voted against investment in water infrastructure. People voted against paying directly for water as opposed to indirectly and against the setting up of a public utility that can be easily privatised in the future. Privitisation of public utilities is one of the major goals of the EU.

    But yeah, feel free to make things up. :rolleyes:


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    #3198
    Reuben1210
    Registered Users Posts: 374 ✭✭Reuben1210


    Zebra3 wrote: »
    Nobody voted against investment in water infrastructure. People voted against paying directly for water as opposed to indirectly and against the setting up of a public utility that can be easily privatised in the future. Privitisation of public utilities is one of the major goals of the EU.

    But yeah, feel free to make things up. :rolleyes:

    Paying for water indirectly doesn't work as a model, as it never gets directed at the infrastructure, and keeps it politicised. A separate entity for water is necessary to ring-fence the investment and direct investment.

    As i've said before, we need to do like other European countries and ring-fence all capital investment requirements to take the politics out of it. This goes for transport and utilities infrastructure.


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    #3199
    spacetweek
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 4,985 Mod ✭✭✭✭spacetweek


    Back on topic please. This isn't an IW thread.


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    #3200
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Reuben1210 wrote: »
    Paying for water indirectly doesn't work as a model, as it never gets directed at the infrastructure, and keeps it politicised. A separate entity for water is necessary to ring-fence the investment and direct investment.

    As i've said before, we need to do like other European countries and ring-fence all capital investment requirements to take the politics out of it. This goes for transport and utilities infrastructure.

    I agree, Likewise capital investment in DU will not happen or be allocated while every champagne socialist in RTE bleat about the governments responsibility to provide accommodation for everybody including those that we plan on transporting to Ireland. There are too many vested interests without any long term view that have access to taxpayers money. DU should of been completed 20 years ago but it will always be at the bottom of an ever changing list of "priorities".

    The only way i can see once off large ticket items getting done is with large private sector input that allow them to make a profit. But that would mean charging realistic prices and paying realistic wages(not Luas type wages), another thing which would not be tolerated in this country as the last couple of years has demonstrated.

    Did a Chinese company not propose a competitive turnkey project for the DU a few years ago ?


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    #3201
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users Posts: 34,365 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    marno21 wrote: »
    I'm being very serious. Day after day New Ross is jammed with large volumes of traffic, what happens if the bridge ever collapses?

    Does this affect hundreds of thousands of people every day? Dublin's gross infrastructure deficits do.

    Fingal County Council are certainly not competent to be making decisions about the most important piece of infrastructure on the island. They need to stick to badly designed cycle lanes and deciding on whether Mrs Murphy can have her kitchen extension.



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    #3202
    marno21
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 14,371 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    Hotblack Desiato wrote: »
    Does this affect hundreds of thousands of people every day? Dublin's gross infrastructure deficits do.
    No, but it affects a proportional amount of people.

    If New Ross was the size of Dublin and had Dublin related issues, we wouldn't be building a 4 lane dual carraigeway bypass with one roundabout junction on it


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    #3203
    LeinsterDub
    Registered Users Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭LeinsterDub


    marno21 wrote: »
    If New Ross was the size of Dublin and had Dublin related issues, we wouldn't be building a 4 lane dual carraigeway bypass with one roundabout junction on it

    What?!?


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    #3204
    tharlear
    Registered Users Posts: 130 ✭✭tharlear


    I think the point here is about priority. Is the development of this section of the national motorway network of greater or lesser importance than DART underground? It might be, the problem in Ireland is there is no debate, no prioritisation, and that's deeply unsatisfying for a great many of us here

    Agreed, because of the refusal of every government to stick to any long term national development plan for roads and rail, rather than pet projects of a particular minister, we have a patchwork. Each project is isolate from the whole.

    A plan is put in place, its starts and the next shower in power have to reinvent it
    DU is important and vital for PT in Dublin, it's a key step in producing a coherent PT system in Dublin, which should easy congestion. M17/M18 is also the first step in producing a national motorway system. All the other motorways lead to Dublin and increase congestion. The priority given will generally depend on where your looking from.

    If one looks at the building of the motorways over the last 15 years it be mainly from Dublin out. In general the further the piece of road from Dublin is the newer it is. I have no issue with this, is was a reasonable way to proceed, but to suggest that we don't need to complete the system by connecting other parts of the county is short sighted.


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    #3205
    Grandeeod
    Registered Users Posts: 12,122 ✭✭✭✭Grandeeod


    tharlear wrote: »
    Agreed, because of the refusal of every government to stick to any long term national development plan for roads and rail, rather than pet projects of a particular minister, we have a patchwork. Each project is isolate from the whole.

    A plan is put in place, its starts and the next shower in power have to reinvent it
    DU is important and vital for PT in Dublin, it's a key step in producing a coherent PT system in Dublin, which should easy congestion. M17/M18 is also the first step in producing a national motorway system. All the other motorways lead to Dublin and increase congestion. The priority given will generally depend on where your looking from.

    If one looks at the building of the motorways over the last 15 years it be mainly from Dublin out. In general the further the piece of road from Dublin is the newer it is. I have no issue with this, is was a reasonable way to proceed, but to suggest that we don't need to complete the system by connecting other parts of the county is short sighted.

    Even within the development of the motorway network, there are issues. We are currently on our way to completing a motorway between our 3rd and 4th cities, yet the road between our 2nd and 3rd cities is poor. (M20 off the radar.)

    You have alluded to the issue. No plan stays in place and in general, there is no actual plan. Ultimately its based on parish pump politics.


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    #3206
    tharlear
    Registered Users Posts: 130 ✭✭tharlear


    Grandeeod said

    You have alluded to the issue. No plan stays in place and in general, there is no actual plan. Ultimately its based on parish pump politics.
    Unfortunately that's the reality, and because it parish pump you end up with "Western rail corridor" and some fool wanting to extent it.
    From schools to hospitals, roads, rail, housing, there is no plan.
    For what ever reason we do not do planning in Ireland. Irish people outside of Ireland appear to have no problem with planning.
    The one thing that has come out of the last 20 years is the beginning of a motorway system. I for one would like to see it finished. m17/18 m20 etc. Then maybe we can brush off the 1970 dart plan, the 80's, 90's, 00's plans for Dublin PT and actually do something that will not be at its capacity within a few years of opening. Not sure we need another plan, committee, review board, panel, experts, quango, etc.
    Reminds me of the Seinfeld episode about renting a car. They make the plans, but they don't implement the plans, and the at the most important part.


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    #3207
    MJohnston
    Registered Users Posts: 10,561 ✭✭✭✭MJohnston


    Lets be clear here - we have plenty of smart experts who work for the relevant agencies like NTA/TII who do know the right decisions, and I don't think the failings of infrastructure planning are anything close to being an innate trait of the Irish people. I believe the problem lies entirely within the Irish political class, how Irish politics is organized, and why politicians strive for power. That whole system is ****ed, and it only ever serves to turn progress into the speed of pitch.


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    #3208
    syklops
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,966 ✭✭✭✭syklops


    MJohnston wrote: »
    Lets be clear here - we have plenty of smart experts who work for the relevant agencies like NTA/TII who do know the right decisions, and I don't think the failings of infrastructure planning are anything close to being an innate trait of the Irish people. I believe the problem lies entirely within the Irish political class, how Irish politics is organized, and why politicians strive for power. That whole system is ****ed, and it only ever serves to turn progress into the speed of pitch.

    I think Berties inability to build a Bertie-bowl demonstrates your point perfectly. Country was booming, plenty of money in government coffers, Bertie is in charge and he wants a stadium built. And? It didn't happen. Never got off the ground.

    If a project like that can't get up and running when we have the money and the political will, what hope have underground rail and childrens hospitals?


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    #3209
    Markcheese
    Registered Users Posts: 8,435 ✭✭✭Markcheese


    syklops wrote:
    I think Berties inability to build a Bertie-bowl demonstrates your point perfectly. Country was booming, plenty of money in government coffers, Bertie is in charge and he wants a stadium built. And? It didn't happen. Never got off the ground.

    A good thing ???
    We've a funny atitude to public infrastructure, eg motorways.. for a long time there was a need for them,but not many and no real plan... then we started getting motorways, yeah, still no plan though.. once its started motorways are expected to be built everywhere.... do we need the waterford to dublin motorway.... a motorway from galway to tuam... an expensive cork limerick motorway plan... pity we didnt have a plan

    Slava ukraini 🇺🇦



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    #3210
    syklops
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,966 ✭✭✭✭syklops


    Markcheese wrote: »
    A good thing ???
    We've a funny atitude to public infrastructure, eg motorways.. for a long time there was a need for them,but not many and no real plan... then we started getting motorways, yeah, still no plan though.. once its started motorways are expected to be built everywhere.... do we need the waterford to dublin motorway.... a motorway from galway to tuam... an expensive cork limerick motorway plan... pity we didnt have a plan

    Where did you see me say it was a good thing?


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    #3211
    D.L.R.
    Registered Users Posts: 1,284 ✭✭✭D.L.R.


    Markcheese wrote: »
    A good thing ???
    We've a funny atitude to public infrastructure, eg motorways.. for a long time there was a need for them,but not many and no real plan... then we started getting motorways, yeah, still no plan though.. once its started motorways are expected to be built everywhere.... do we need the waterford to dublin motorway.... a motorway from galway to tuam... an expensive cork limerick motorway plan... pity we didnt have a plan

    Our sense of "priority" as a state is completely dysfunctional, and at the mercy of career politicians and horse trading local interests. 1,000 km of pristine motorway, much of it quite empty and being subsidised, and more on the way. Gort-Tuam to be subsidised by us the taxpayer for 30 years. Yet not a jot of progress on a Dublin underground line amidst the return of boomtime scale daily gridlock.

    Dysfunctional is the only word for this. We're still living under this warped De Valera delusion of idealistic rural self sufficiency which needs to end if we are seriously about proper urban investment and a functional, productive modern state.

    We need more of this kind of attitude actually impacting policy: State can't afford rural Ireland - Moran


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