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94 year old Former Auschwitz guard on trial in Germany

  • 29-04-2016 08:09PM
    #1
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    http://www.reuters.com/article/us-germany-nazi-trial-victims-idUSKCN0XQ1GM?utm_source=Facebook&utm_medium=Social
    What do people think about this guy here?

    On one hand I know he was part of the machine that was involved in the slaughter of millions of people. On the other hand he was only a lowly guard and had no direct involvement in any of the killings.

    What happened during the holocaust was undoubtedly the most horrible event in human history, but I do think tracking this guy down at 94 and trialing him is a bit pointless. He is just an old man who unfortunately at a younger age was living in a country that was run by a horrible regime.

    edit: Sorry meant to say 94 year old in the title, if a mod could change that it would be nice. It now looks like 94 people are on trial, sorry for my cock up there.


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Comments

  • #2
    uck51js9zml2yt
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,268 ✭✭✭✭uck51js9zml2yt


    Seems he apologized for his part I'm it. Faces a possible 15 years in jail


  • #3
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Zaire Big Thundershower wrote: »
    Seems he apologized for his part I'm it. Faces a possible 15 years in jail

    He apologized for being there and by being a guard helping facilitate it. He didn't apologize for any killing, he denies he had anything to do with any murders.


  • #4
    KingBrian2
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,363 ✭✭✭KingBrian2


    Deleted User wrote: »
    http://www.reuters.com/article/us-germany-nazi-trial-victims-idUSKCN0XQ1GM?utm_source=Facebook&utm_medium=Social
    What do people think about this guy here?

    On one hand I know he was part of the machine that was involved in the slaughter of millions of people. On the other hand he was only a lowly guard and had no direct involvement in any of the killings.

    What happened during the holocaust was undoubtedly the most horrible event in human history, but I do think tracking this guy down at 94 and trialing him is a bit pointless. He is just an old man who unfortunately at a younger age was living in a country that was run by a horrible regime.

    edit: Sorry meant to say 94 year old in the title, if a mod could change that it would be nice. It now looks like 94 people are on trial, sorry for my cock up there.

    You don't know much history but it is getting to the stage that these trial have to be wound down.


  • #5
    eviltwin
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    I've been to Auschwitz and it affected me for weeks after. The guy deserves everything he gets imo.


  • #6
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    KingBrian2 wrote: »
    You don't know much history but it is getting to the stage that these trial have to be wound down.

    Ok, one of the worst events then.


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  • #7
    The_Valeyard
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,452 ✭✭✭✭The_Valeyard


    I dont think the time matters. He helped facilitate the mass murder of thousands.


  • #8
    bilston
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,986 ✭✭✭✭bilston


    KingBrian2 wrote: »
    Deleted User wrote: »
    http://www.reuters.com/article/us-germany-nazi-trial-victims-idUSKCN0XQ1GM?utm_source=Facebook&utm_medium=Social
    What do people think about this guy here?

    On one hand I know he was part of the machine that was involved in the slaughter of millions of people. On the other hand he was only a lowly guard and had no direct involvement in any of the killings.

    What happened during the holocaust was undoubtedly the most horrible event in human history, but I do think tracking this guy down at 94 and trialing him is a bit pointless. He is just an old man who unfortunately at a younger age was living in a country that was run by a horrible regime.

    edit: Sorry meant to say 94 year old in the title, if a mod could change that it would be nice. It now looks like 94 people are on trial, sorry for my cock up there.

    You don't know much history but it is getting to the stage that these trial have to be wound down.

    Why should they be wound down? If someone is still alive and responsible for these heinous crimes then they should face justice.


  • #9
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    The_Valeyard wrote: »
    I dont think the time matters. He helped facilitate the mass murder of thousands.

    I am not trying to troll here or anything, but should say a US soldier who was in a squadron with US soldiers who killed innocent people be prosecuted years later for something that he didn't directly do?

    This guy has stated he didn't want to be at Auschwitz and described his time there as the worst time of his life. It's not as if he could have just went "I dont agree with this I want to leave", him and his family could then be in trouble.


  • #10
    tomwaterford
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,768 ✭✭✭✭tomwaterford


    Would be interesting to see what actual evidence they have againest him


  • #11
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    bilston wrote: »
    Why should they be wound down? If someone is still alive and responsible for these heinous crimes then they should face justice.

    He was never directly involved with any murders and he couldn't just walk away. Its not as if he was ordering the murders or doing them, he probably didn't even agree with them.


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  • #12
    tomwaterford
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,768 ✭✭✭✭tomwaterford


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    I am not trying to troll here or anything, but should say a US soldier who was in a squadron with US soldiers who killed innocent people be prosecuted years later for something that he didn't directly do?

    If he/she helped it and didn't try to stop knowingly killing innocent people why would they not?


  • #13
    esforum
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,420 ✭✭✭esforum


    well first off, at what age should you be considered immune to prosecution?

    Second, does that not basically mean as long as you keep your head down long enough you have legally gotten away with it?

    three, the article states he was an ss officer. As far I am aware, the SS guards at the camps were all voluntary SS. I am unsure whether they mean officer in rank or more in the police OFFICER way, was he a ranked member of the ss do you know? Voluntary SS knew well what they were getting involved in so no, his age should not be a factor and his apology is hollow. Genuine remorse would have meant handing himself in, not doing his best to dodge.

    Was he involved in murder? possible not gassing but even if he stood at the fence, he stopped escapes and probable did do some sick ****.


  • #14
    karma_
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,798 ✭✭✭karma_


    tomwaterford wrote: »
    If he/she helped it and didn't try to stop knowingly killing innocent people why would they not?

    There was no justice post WW2. So many nazis got away with blessing, the Allies, courts, everyone lost all interest in prosecuting them for many years. All business who helped actually got away scot-free, not a single prosecution from IG Farben or IBM, and without IBM the very holocaust could not have been run as efficiently.


  • #15
    esforum
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,420 ✭✭✭esforum


    Deleted User wrote: »
    I am not trying to troll here or anything, but should say a US soldier who was in a squadron with US soldiers who killed innocent people be prosecuted years later for something that he didn't directly do?

    This guy has stated he didn't want to be at Auschwitz and described his time there as the worst time of his life. It's not as if he could have just went "I dont agree with this I want to leave", him and his family could then be in trouble.

    the SS were not the wermacht, they were not soldiers that were ordered to do stuff not within the normal remit or just happened to be there. They were the Nazi party murderers who willfully went in and killed Jews.

    Later in the war, Russians and some French, etc were forced but Germans werent.

    (The US did indeed murder and rape thousands of German civilians following victory and occupation. )


  • #16
    KingBrian2
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,363 ✭✭✭KingBrian2


    esforum wrote: »
    well first off, at what age should you be considered immune to prosecution?

    Second, does that not basically mean as long as you keep your head down long enough you have legally gotten away with it?

    three, the article states he was an ss officer. As far I am aware, the SS guards at the camps were all voluntary SS. I am unsure whether they mean officer in rank or more in the police OFFICER way, was he a ranked member of the ss do you know? Voluntary SS knew well what they were getting involved in so no, his age should not be a factor and his apology is hollow. Genuine remorse would have meant handing himself in, not doing his best to dodge.

    Was he involved in murder? possible not gassing but even if he stood at the fence, he stopped escapes and probable did do some sick ****.

    Well at the time of WW2's immediate end all members of the SS were classified as terrorists. So not even entitled POW status not exactly the same as a US marine.


  • #17
    kneemos
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,883 ✭✭✭✭kneemos


    It was war,many ordinary people on both sides did very unspeakable things.If he was one of the heads fair enough,but a 94 year old guard is pushing it a bit.


    As an aside an item on "Unreported World" last night covered the treatment of some of the survivors of the Holocaust in Israel. Quiet a few of them are living on handouts and in poor conditions.


  • #18
    MarkY91
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,071 ✭✭✭MarkY91


    KingBrian2 wrote: »
    You don't know much history but it is getting to the stage that these trial have to be wound down.

    In your opinion, which historical events is worse?


  • #19
    Felix Jones is God
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,160 ✭✭✭Felix Jones is God


    eviltwin wrote: »
    I've been to Auschwitz and it affected me for weeks after. The guy deserves everything he gets imo.

    Guard at Auschwitz... I don't want to be here,
    Bang!/..... Dead guard
    I don't hold everyone accountable for the actions of the minority leadership


  • #20
    karma_
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,798 ✭✭✭karma_


    KingBrian2 wrote: »
    Well at the time of WW2's immediate end all members of the SS were classified as terrorists. So not even entitled POW status not exactly the same as a US marine.

    I don't think they were. Many Waffen SS even ended up in politics with their war pensions. The clean-up didn't even start until the 80's.


  • #21
    KingBrian2
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,363 ✭✭✭KingBrian2


    MarkY91 wrote: »
    In your opinion, which historical events is worse?

    Not a Question of worse only that I disagree with saying oh this is bad and this not as bad. Slavery was pretty wicked for the Blacks, Mexican Indians were conquered by European imperialists.


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  • #22
    karma_
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,798 ✭✭✭karma_


    KingBrian2 wrote: »
    Not a Question of worse only that I disagree with saying oh this is bad and this not as bad. Slavery was pretty wicked for the Blacks, Mexican Indians were conquered by European imperialists.

    Planned, industrialised, ethnic specific genocide could definitely be argued to be the worst.


  • #23
    Avatar MIA
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,750 ✭✭✭Avatar MIA


    He was only 23 at war's end, towards the end I would think it would become quite easy to become an officer in the SS.

    It's very easy for us to judge someone like this guy with some 70 years remove. Very many of us would have done very similar if we had been born ind 1920's Germany - hopefully not the Dr Mengele types, but very easily concentration camp guards. The alternative might be the Eastern Front facing the Russians.

    Unless they can pin direct involvement in gassing or torture he should not get a custodial sentence.


  • #24
    karma_
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,798 ✭✭✭karma_


    Avatar MIA wrote: »
    He was only 23 at war's end, towards the end I would think it would become quite easy to become an officer in the SS.

    It's very easy for us to judge someone like this guy with some 70 years remove. Very many of us would have done very similar if we had been born ind 1920's Germany - hopefully not the Dr Mengele types, but very easily concentration camp guards. The alternative might be the Eastern Front facing the Russians.

    Unless they can pin direct involvement in gassing or torture he should not get a custodial sentence.

    Look no farther than the Milgram experiment, all most people require is an authority figure to tell them to do something. Results of that experiment are truly terrifying.


  • #25
    KingBrian2
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,363 ✭✭✭KingBrian2


    karma_ wrote: »
    Look no farther than the Milgram experiment, all most people require is an authority figure to tell them to do something. Results of that experiment are truly terrifying.

    As I said terrorists. The SS were a terrorist organization and the leaders were trialed and executed and all the remaining SS officers were tracked around the world caught and delivered to justice. In the countries they were hidden in they either continued to commit crimes or else vanished into exile.


  • #26
    karma_
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,798 ✭✭✭karma_


    KingBrian2 wrote: »
    As I said terrorists. The SS were a terrorist organization and the leaders were trialed and executed and all the remaining SS officers were tracked around the world caught and delivered to justice. In the countries they were hidden in they either continued to commit crimes or else vanished into exile.

    Your information is just plain wrong.


  • #27
    Sand
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,000 ✭✭✭✭Sand


    esforum wrote: »
    the SS were not the wermacht, they were not soldiers that were ordered to do stuff not within the normal remit or just happened to be there. They were the Nazi party murderers who willfully went in and killed Jews.

    Later in the war, Russians and some French, etc were forced but Germans werent.

    (The US did indeed murder and rape thousands of German civilians following victory and occupation. )

    Plenty of SS were indeed soldiers ordered to do stuff within the normal remit, who just happened to volunteer and serve in a (then) prestigious unit. Plenty of Wehrmacht soldiers were war criminals who happily committed crimes they were ordered to do and not ordered to do. There are myths that the Wehrmacht were honourable enemies, and the baddies were limited to the SS who were black hearted bastards to a man but its overly simplistic. There are cases of SS officers (and members of the Wehrmacht) saving Jewish families from pogroms and death camps. Schindler too was a member of the Nazi Party, and he is recognised as a Righteous Gentile. Guilt by association is not enough.

    This chap says he was only assigned to the camp after being wounded and being twice denied permission to return to his unit on the front line. There is no evidence directly linking him to any murder and nobody claims he murdered anyone in the camps. The threshold of guilt is being set so low that I cant see how any German over the age of 70 should not be joining him in his cell if he is convicted.


  • #28
    bilston
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,986 ✭✭✭✭bilston


    esforum wrote: »
    Deleted User wrote: »
    I am not trying to troll here or anything, but should say a US soldier who was in a squadron with US soldiers who killed innocent people be prosecuted years later for something that he didn't directly do?

    This guy has stated he didn't want to be at Auschwitz and described his time there as the worst time of his life. It's not as if he could have just went "I dont agree with this I want to leave", him and his family could then be in trouble.

    the SS were not the wermacht, they were not soldiers that were ordered to do stuff not within the normal remit or just happened to be there. They were the Nazi party murderers who willfully went in and killed Jews.

    Later in the war, Russians and some French, etc were forced but Germans werent.

    (The US did indeed murder and rape thousands of German civilians following victory and occupation. )

    I've read about American and Allied soldiers committing rape following the end of WW2. It wasn't just German women who suffered at the hands of Americans soldiers, but French and even British women suffered too. The Russians of course went to a completely different level in sexual crimes against German women.

    In saying that this is the first time I've ever heard of Americans murdering thousands of German civilians after the war. I've read about SS officers being held prisoner being massacred, but not civilians.


  • #29
    KingBrian2
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,363 ✭✭✭KingBrian2


    karma_ wrote: »
    Your information is just plain wrong.

    Which part? I know the SS were classed as terrorists and escaped to foreign countries. So tell me how am I wrong?


  • #30
    karma_
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,798 ✭✭✭karma_


    KingBrian2 wrote: »
    Which part? I know the SS were classed as terrorists and escaped to foreign countries. So tell me how am I wrong?

    None of what you describe happened, at all. There's a thread next door to this one about the Ukrainian SS Galacian unit. Something like 7000 of it's members were relocated to Britain post war because the Allied powers didn;t want to send them back to the USSR in case they were persecuted, essentially protecting them.

    Many other veterans like I said ended up in mainstream German political parties.


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  • #31
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    MarkY91 wrote: »
    In your opinion, which historical events is worse?

    Basically he just wanted to find a part of my post to pick at, I quite obviously wasn't saying that slavery etc wasn't bad.


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