94 year old Former Auschwitz guard on trial in Germany

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-germany-nazi-trial-victims-idUSKCN0XQ1GM?utm_source=Facebook&utm_medium=Social
What do people think about this guy here?

On one hand I know he was part of the machine that was involved in the slaughter of millions of people. On the other hand he was only a lowly guard and had no direct involvement in any of the killings.

What happened during the holocaust was undoubtedly the most horrible event in human history, but I do think tracking this guy down at 94 and trialing him is a bit pointless. He is just an old man who unfortunately at a younger age was living in a country that was run by a horrible regime.

edit: Sorry meant to say 94 year old in the title, if a mod could change that it would be nice. It now looks like 94 people are on trial, sorry for my cock up there.

uck51js9zml2yt

Seems he apologized for his part I'm it. Faces a possible 15 years in jail

Zaire Big Thundershower

Zaire Big Thundershower wrote: »

Seems he apologized for his part I'm it. Faces a possible 15 years in jail

He apologized for being there and by being a guard helping facilitate it. He didn't apologize for any killing, he denies he had anything to do with any murders.

KingBrian2

Deleted User wrote: »

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-germany-nazi-trial-victims-idUSKCN0XQ1GM?utm_source=Facebook&utm_medium=Social
What do people think about this guy here?

On one hand I know he was part of the machine that was involved in the slaughter of millions of people. On the other hand he was only a lowly guard and had no direct involvement in any of the killings.

What happened during the holocaust was undoubtedly the most horrible event in human history, but I do think tracking this guy down at 94 and trialing him is a bit pointless. He is just an old man who unfortunately at a younger age was living in a country that was run by a horrible regime.

edit: Sorry meant to say 94 year old in the title, if a mod could change that it would be nice. It now looks like 94 people are on trial, sorry for my cock up there.

You don't know much history but it is getting to the stage that these trial have to be wound down.

eviltwin

I've been to Auschwitz and it affected me for weeks after. The guy deserves everything he gets imo.

KingBrian2

KingBrian2 wrote: »

You don't know much history but it is getting to the stage that these trial have to be wound down.

Ok, one of the worst events then.

The_Valeyard

I dont think the time matters. He helped facilitate the mass murder of thousands.

bilston

KingBrian2 wrote: »

Deleted User wrote: »

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-germany-nazi-trial-victims-idUSKCN0XQ1GM?utm_source=Facebook&utm_medium=Social
What do people think about this guy here?

On one hand I know he was part of the machine that was involved in the slaughter of millions of people. On the other hand he was only a lowly guard and had no direct involvement in any of the killings.

What happened during the holocaust was undoubtedly the most horrible event in human history, but I do think tracking this guy down at 94 and trialing him is a bit pointless. He is just an old man who unfortunately at a younger age was living in a country that was run by a horrible regime.

edit: Sorry meant to say 94 year old in the title, if a mod could change that it would be nice. It now looks like 94 people are on trial, sorry for my cock up there.

You don't know much history but it is getting to the stage that these trial have to be wound down.

Why should they be wound down? If someone is still alive and responsible for these heinous crimes then they should face justice.

The_Valeyard

The_Valeyard wrote: »

I dont think the time matters. He helped facilitate the mass murder of thousands.

I am not trying to troll here or anything, but should say a US soldier who was in a squadron with US soldiers who killed innocent people be prosecuted years later for something that he didn't directly do?

This guy has stated he didn't want to be at Auschwitz and described his time there as the worst time of his life. It's not as if he could have just went "I dont agree with this I want to leave", him and his family could then be in trouble.

tomwaterford

Would be interesting to see what actual evidence they have againest him

bilston

bilston wrote: »

Why should they be wound down? If someone is still alive and responsible for these heinous crimes then they should face justice.

He was never directly involved with any murders and he couldn't just walk away. Its not as if he was ordering the murders or doing them, he probably didn't even agree with them.

tomwaterford

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I am not trying to troll here or anything, but should say a US soldier who was in a squadron with US soldiers who killed innocent people be prosecuted years later for something that he didn't directly do?

If he/she helped it and didn't try to stop knowingly killing innocent people why would they not?

esforum

well first off, at what age should you be considered immune to prosecution?

Second, does that not basically mean as long as you keep your head down long enough you have legally gotten away with it?

three, the article states he was an ss officer. As far I am aware, the SS guards at the camps were all voluntary SS. I am unsure whether they mean officer in rank or more in the police OFFICER way, was he a ranked member of the ss do you know? Voluntary SS knew well what they were getting involved in so no, his age should not be a factor and his apology is hollow. Genuine remorse would have meant handing himself in, not doing his best to dodge.

Was he involved in murder? possible not gassing but even if he stood at the fence, he stopped escapes and probable did do some sick ****.

karma_

tomwaterford wrote: »

If he/she helped it and didn't try to stop knowingly killing innocent people why would they not?

There was no justice post WW2. So many nazis got away with blessing, the Allies, courts, everyone lost all interest in prosecuting them for many years. All business who helped actually got away scot-free, not a single prosecution from IG Farben or IBM, and without IBM the very holocaust could not have been run as efficiently.

esforum

Deleted User wrote: »

I am not trying to troll here or anything, but should say a US soldier who was in a squadron with US soldiers who killed innocent people be prosecuted years later for something that he didn't directly do?

This guy has stated he didn't want to be at Auschwitz and described his time there as the worst time of his life. It's not as if he could have just went "I dont agree with this I want to leave", him and his family could then be in trouble.

the SS were not the wermacht, they were not soldiers that were ordered to do stuff not within the normal remit or just happened to be there. They were the Nazi party murderers who willfully went in and killed Jews.

Later in the war, Russians and some French, etc were forced but Germans werent.

(The US did indeed murder and rape thousands of German civilians following victory and occupation. )

KingBrian2

esforum wrote: »

well first off, at what age should you be considered immune to prosecution?

Second, does that not basically mean as long as you keep your head down long enough you have legally gotten away with it?

three, the article states he was an ss officer. As far I am aware, the SS guards at the camps were all voluntary SS. I am unsure whether they mean officer in rank or more in the police OFFICER way, was he a ranked member of the ss do you know? Voluntary SS knew well what they were getting involved in so no, his age should not be a factor and his apology is hollow. Genuine remorse would have meant handing himself in, not doing his best to dodge.

Was he involved in murder? possible not gassing but even if he stood at the fence, he stopped escapes and probable did do some sick ****.

Well at the time of WW2's immediate end all members of the SS were classified as terrorists. So not even entitled POW status not exactly the same as a US marine.

kneemos

It was war,many ordinary people on both sides did very unspeakable things.If he was one of the heads fair enough,but a 94 year old guard is pushing it a bit.


As an aside an item on "Unreported World" last night covered the treatment of some of the survivors of the Holocaust in Israel. Quiet a few of them are living on handouts and in poor conditions.

MarkY91

KingBrian2 wrote: »

You don't know much history but it is getting to the stage that these trial have to be wound down.

In your opinion, which historical events is worse?

Felix Jones is God

eviltwin wrote: »

I've been to Auschwitz and it affected me for weeks after. The guy deserves everything he gets imo.

Guard at Auschwitz... I don't want to be here,
Bang!/..... Dead guard
I don't hold everyone accountable for the actions of the minority leadership

karma_

KingBrian2 wrote: »

Well at the time of WW2's immediate end all members of the SS were classified as terrorists. So not even entitled POW status not exactly the same as a US marine.

I don't think they were. Many Waffen SS even ended up in politics with their war pensions. The clean-up didn't even start until the 80's.

KingBrian2

MarkY91 wrote: »

In your opinion, which historical events is worse?

Not a Question of worse only that I disagree with saying oh this is bad and this not as bad. Slavery was pretty wicked for the Blacks, Mexican Indians were conquered by European imperialists.

karma_

KingBrian2 wrote: »

Not a Question of worse only that I disagree with saying oh this is bad and this not as bad. Slavery was pretty wicked for the Blacks, Mexican Indians were conquered by European imperialists.

Planned, industrialised, ethnic specific genocide could definitely be argued to be the worst.

Avatar MIA

He was only 23 at war's end, towards the end I would think it would become quite easy to become an officer in the SS.

It's very easy for us to judge someone like this guy with some 70 years remove. Very many of us would have done very similar if we had been born ind 1920's Germany - hopefully not the Dr Mengele types, but very easily concentration camp guards. The alternative might be the Eastern Front facing the Russians.

Unless they can pin direct involvement in gassing or torture he should not get a custodial sentence.

karma_

Avatar MIA wrote: »

He was only 23 at war's end, towards the end I would think it would become quite easy to become an officer in the SS.

It's very easy for us to judge someone like this guy with some 70 years remove. Very many of us would have done very similar if we had been born ind 1920's Germany - hopefully not the Dr Mengele types, but very easily concentration camp guards. The alternative might be the Eastern Front facing the Russians.

Unless they can pin direct involvement in gassing or torture he should not get a custodial sentence.

Look no farther than the Milgram experiment, all most people require is an authority figure to tell them to do something. Results of that experiment are truly terrifying.

KingBrian2

karma_ wrote: »

Look no farther than the Milgram experiment, all most people require is an authority figure to tell them to do something. Results of that experiment are truly terrifying.

As I said terrorists. The SS were a terrorist organization and the leaders were trialed and executed and all the remaining SS officers were tracked around the world caught and delivered to justice. In the countries they were hidden in they either continued to commit crimes or else vanished into exile.

karma_

KingBrian2 wrote: »

As I said terrorists. The SS were a terrorist organization and the leaders were trialed and executed and all the remaining SS officers were tracked around the world caught and delivered to justice. In the countries they were hidden in they either continued to commit crimes or else vanished into exile.

Your information is just plain wrong.

Sand

esforum wrote: »

the SS were not the wermacht, they were not soldiers that were ordered to do stuff not within the normal remit or just happened to be there. They were the Nazi party murderers who willfully went in and killed Jews.

Later in the war, Russians and some French, etc were forced but Germans werent.

(The US did indeed murder and rape thousands of German civilians following victory and occupation. )

Plenty of SS were indeed soldiers ordered to do stuff within the normal remit, who just happened to volunteer and serve in a (then) prestigious unit. Plenty of Wehrmacht soldiers were war criminals who happily committed crimes they were ordered to do and not ordered to do. There are myths that the Wehrmacht were honourable enemies, and the baddies were limited to the SS who were black hearted bastards to a man but its overly simplistic. There are cases of SS officers (and members of the Wehrmacht) saving Jewish families from pogroms and death camps. Schindler too was a member of the Nazi Party, and he is recognised as a Righteous Gentile. Guilt by association is not enough.

This chap says he was only assigned to the camp after being wounded and being twice denied permission to return to his unit on the front line. There is no evidence directly linking him to any murder and nobody claims he murdered anyone in the camps. The threshold of guilt is being set so low that I cant see how any German over the age of 70 should not be joining him in his cell if he is convicted.

bilston

esforum wrote: »

Deleted User wrote: »

I am not trying to troll here or anything, but should say a US soldier who was in a squadron with US soldiers who killed innocent people be prosecuted years later for something that he didn't directly do?

This guy has stated he didn't want to be at Auschwitz and described his time there as the worst time of his life. It's not as if he could have just went "I dont agree with this I want to leave", him and his family could then be in trouble.

the SS were not the wermacht, they were not soldiers that were ordered to do stuff not within the normal remit or just happened to be there. They were the Nazi party murderers who willfully went in and killed Jews.

Later in the war, Russians and some French, etc were forced but Germans werent.

(The US did indeed murder and rape thousands of German civilians following victory and occupation. )

I've read about American and Allied soldiers committing rape following the end of WW2. It wasn't just German women who suffered at the hands of Americans soldiers, but French and even British women suffered too. The Russians of course went to a completely different level in sexual crimes against German women.

In saying that this is the first time I've ever heard of Americans murdering thousands of German civilians after the war. I've read about SS officers being held prisoner being massacred, but not civilians.

KingBrian2

karma_ wrote: »

Your information is just plain wrong.

Which part? I know the SS were classed as terrorists and escaped to foreign countries. So tell me how am I wrong?

karma_

KingBrian2 wrote: »

Which part? I know the SS were classed as terrorists and escaped to foreign countries. So tell me how am I wrong?

None of what you describe happened, at all. There's a thread next door to this one about the Ukrainian SS Galacian unit. Something like 7000 of it's members were relocated to Britain post war because the Allied powers didn;t want to send them back to the USSR in case they were persecuted, essentially protecting them.

Many other veterans like I said ended up in mainstream German political parties.

MarkY91

MarkY91 wrote: »

In your opinion, which historical events is worse?

Basically he just wanted to find a part of my post to pick at, I quite obviously wasn't saying that slavery etc wasn't bad.

Sand

Sand wrote: »

Plenty of SS were indeed soldiers ordered to do stuff within the normal remit, who just happened to volunteer and serve in a (then) prestigious unit. Plenty of Wehrmacht soldiers were war criminals who happily committed crimes they were ordered to do and not ordered to do. There are myths that the Wehrmacht were honourable enemies, and the baddies were limited to the SS who were black hearted bastards to a man but its overly simplistic. There are cases of SS officers (and members of the Wehrmacht) saving Jewish families from pogroms and death camps. Schindler too was a member of the Nazi Party, and he is recognised as a Righteous Gentile. Guilt by association is not enough.

This chap says he was only assigned to the camp after being wounded and being twice denied permission to return to his unit on the front line. There is no evidence directly linking him to any murder and nobody claims he murdered anyone in the camps. The threshold of guilt is being set so low that I cant see how any German over the age of 70 should not be joining him in his cell if he is convicted.

This is the exact point I was making. I just didn't word it right.

This guy didn't want to be at Auschwitz and also required to leave twice, he was also only a guard and had no connection to any murders. I don't see how anyone can argue that he should be convicted 70 years later, if he had of killed people then he should be prosecuted but there is no evidence that he did.

KingBrian2

Deleted User wrote: »

Basically he just wanted to find a part of my post to pick at, I quite obviously wasn't saying that slavery etc wasn't bad.

No it not like that. You came out with a stupid statement.

KingBrian2

KingBrian2 wrote: »

No it not like that. You came out with a stupid statement.

The holocaust was one of, if not the worst tragedy in human history. How can you say that is a stupid statement?

SEPT 23 1989

A young guard who faced a bullet if he didn't follow orders

15 years seems very fair alright

Really scraping the barrel

OttoPilot

I would be in favour of prosecution because it might act as a deterrent to people in similar situations in future.

I would be against prosecution if he would be shot for disobeying orders, because I have no doubt the majority of people would do the same in his position. It's a tough one. Overall, I'm probably in favour of prosecution.

Hypothetical question: if I was abducted by a serial killer and ordered to kill someone else they had captured under threat of being killed myself, would I be held responsible?

KingBrian2

Deleted User wrote: »

The holocaust was one of, if not the worst tragedy in human history. How can you say that is a stupid statement?

What you said.

"What happened during the holocaust was undoubtedly the most horrible event in human history".


That is not true. That line is ridiculous to say. You can't have a hierarchy of bad. You have equally bad events in human history. Apartheid South Africa being one.

OttoPilot

OttoPilot wrote: »

I would be in favour of prosecution because it might act as a deterrent to people in similar situations in future.

I would be against prosecution if he would be shot for disobeying orders, because I have no doubt the majority of people would do the same in his position. It's a tough one. Overall, I'm probably in favour of prosecution.

Hypothetical question: if I was abducted by a serial killer and ordered to kill someone else they had captured under threat of being killed myself, would I be held responsible?

I don't think people in that dire situation will worry that they might get prosecuted in decades time, sure imagine you have two choices 1. do your job and risk getting prosecuted decades later or 2. don't do your job and get a bullet. I know what most people would do.

KingBrian2

KingBrian2 wrote: »

What you said.

"What happened during the holocaust was undoubtedly the most horrible event in human history".


That is not true. That line is ridiculous to say. You can't have a hierarchy of bad. You have equally bad events in human history. Apartheid South Africa being one.

Oh get a life :rolleyes:

KingBrian2

Deleted User wrote: »

Oh get a life :rolleyes:

Your the one digging up stories about SS guards. This is a forum at the end of the day about debating world news.

enzo roco

eviltwin wrote: »

I've been to Auschwitz and it affected me for weeks after. The guy deserves everything he gets imo.

What did you expect to see??? I dont know why people go there?
Understandable for family members over the years to go to grieve.
But I know I would hate to see the place.

KingBrian2

KingBrian2 wrote: »

Your the one digging up stories about SS guards. This is a forum at the end of the day about debating world news.

Then debate the actual point i was trying to make, I wasn't arguing whether the holocaust was worse than slavery or vice versa. What is your opinion on whether he should be prosecuted or not? you still didn't give your opinion on what the topic of the thread is.

Eugene Norman

KingBrian2 wrote: »

What you said.

"What happened during the holocaust was undoubtedly the most horrible event in human history".


That is not true. That line is ridiculous to say. You can't have a hierarchy of bad. You have equally bad events in human history. Apartheid South Africa being one.

Er, no. Not a genocide.

There have been many genocides though.

Sand

Felix Jones is God wrote: »

Guard at Auschwitz... I don't want to be here,
Bang!/..... Dead guard
I don't hold everyone accountable for the actions of the minority leadership

Just on this point - a lot of Germans (and other nationalities - the holocaust was an international effort with volunteers from the Atlantic to the Urals) post war did point to their fear that if they rebelled against their service that they or their families would be targeted and reprisals would be carried out. There is however almost no occurrences of this ever happening. If anything, the Nazis recognised the evil acts they were carrying out were monstrous, they rationalised them as necessary to 'save' future generations and were if anything sympathetic to those who could not 'bear the burden'.

I referenced a case of a Wehrmacht driver who not only rescued Jews in Latvia but drove them back and forth in his army truck to meetings with the local resistance who were smuggling them out of the country. Now, when caught he was tried and executed for 'treason' but his family were completely unharmed, and he was even allowed to write a letter to his wife apologising to her, saying that she ought to know that with his big heart he couldn't not help people who were so desperate.

The terrifying thing from the holocaust and the nazi era is not that Germany 'went mad' or that there is something particularly bloodythirsty or evil about Germans. That's too easy - its that humans are generally 'followers'. Just like bullying the quiet kid in school, it suddenly became socially acceptable to murder and kill entire groups in WW2 Germany. And human beings fell into line for pretty much the same reason that no one stands up to the bully in school. People take their cues from their leaders - the very few who stand against the tide are sometimes heroes but they are very definitely different. Ex-Nazis might claim they feared for their own lives or the lives of their families, but what they really feared was being excluded by the group. The vast majority of human beings will do anything to avoid being outside the group.

You see the same story with pretty much every brutality, though the scale varies - if you look at war crimes carried out by military units in Afghanistan and Iraq, the root cause in small units is always the NCOs permitting or even encouraging those acts of brutality and the lower ranks trying to impress the NCOs by being brutal enough.

Eugene Norman

OttoPilot wrote: »

I would be in favour of prosecution because it might act as a deterrent to people in similar situations in future.

It would only deter people who thought they were going to lose the war. And then only if the future punishment was more severe than the present day punishment ( presumably death for desertion).

KingBrian2

Deleted User wrote: »

Then debate the actual point i was trying to make, I wasn't arguing whether the holocaust was worse than slavery or vice versa. What is your opinion on whether he should be prosecuted or not? you still didn't give your opinion on what the topic of the thread is.

Just to be clear it was not the worst atrocity in human history but as for prosecution yes he should be sentenced. Their is however a limit to how far the justice system of any nation can prosecute SS officers. A general amnesty should be extended to the remaining SS officers.

Sand

KingBrian2 wrote: »

Just to be clear it was not the worst atrocity in human history but as for prosecution yes he should be sentenced. Their is however a limit to how far the justice system of any nation can prosecute SS officers. A general amnesty should be extended to the remaining SS officers.

Bollocks - no one who can be proven to have committed crimes of the scale we are discussing ought to escape justice, least of all being given an amnesty. They ought to be pursued to their graves.

esforum

OttoPilot wrote: »

Hypothetical question: if I was abducted by a serial killer and ordered to kill someone else they had captured under threat of being killed myself, would I be held responsible?

yes, no, maybe.

Ultimately it would depend on a jury and what your defence was.

KingBrian2 wrote: »

Well at the time of WW2's immediate end all members of the SS were classified as terrorists. So not even entitled POW status not exactly the same as a US marine.

dunno why you quoted me on this one. I didnt compare them

Felix Jones is God wrote: »

Guard at Auschwitz... I don't want to be here,
Bang!/..... Dead guard
I don't hold everyone accountable for the actions of the minority leadership

theres no evidence of an SS man being shot for refusing an order, there is however evidence of SS men disobeying orders and not being shot.

Avatar MIA wrote: »

He was only 23 at war's end, towards the end I would think it would become quite easy to become an officer in the SS.

But not mandatory within Germany. not Mandatory, thats a pretty important part.

Sand wrote: »

Plenty of SS were indeed soldiers ordered to do stuff within the normal remit, who just happened to volunteer and serve in a (then) prestigious unit.

considering the SS were not part of the German military but were a fascist armed section of a political party, thats not true, They were not soldiers and they didnt select a prestigious unit within the army. THey were a seperate entity that were in many cases, not liked within the regular military

Sand wrote: »

Plenty of Wehrmacht soldiers were war criminals who happily committed crimes they were ordered to do and not ordered to do. There are myths that the Wehrmacht were honourable enemies, and the baddies were limited to the SS who were black hearted bastards to a man but its overly simplistic.

Correct, so what?

The ones that werent bastards were the Lorraine French and Russian POWs forced at gunpoint to join up. the VOLUNTEER German can make no such claim.

Sand wrote: »

There are cases of SS officers (and members of the Wehrmacht) saving Jewish families from pogroms and death camps. Schindler too was a member of the Nazi Party, and he is recognised as a Righteous Gentile. Guilt by association is not enough.

Also correct and that kinda proves the point against this man doesnt it? Others saved lives, he helped to keep them locked in a camp where he knew they would be killed and were being tortured. Including children.

Schindler was a Nazi member after it became cool and good for busineess and again, used his position to save lives. He didnt sign up to the SS and shoot people.

Sand wrote: »

any German over the age of 70 should not be joining him in his cell if he is convicted.

All Germans pointed guns at Jews in auschwitz and prevented them from escaping while making no attempt to aid them? Hmmm, not sure about that.

I get that the war was at a time when he was young, 17 when war broke out, but plenty when all is said and done, didnt wear that uniform and he COULD have done something for the prisoners, as you yourself say, SS officers did assist Jews in some cases.

"He was said to have joined the SS forces voluntarily in 1940 at the age of 18 at the urging of his stepmother." (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-36168688)

An adult that made a conscience decision to join an organisation that was openly and actively harassing, abusing and killing Jews. Being naive or stupid is not a defence.

KingBrian2

Sand wrote: »

Bollocks - no one who can be proven to have committed crimes of the scale we are discussing ought to escape justice, least of all being given an amnesty. They ought to be pursued to their graves.

I knew you would answer that. These people are old men.

Sand

KingBrian2 wrote: »

I knew you would answer that. These people are old men.

Yes, and their victims never got the chance to be old men. They should never sleep easy.

KingBrian2

Sand wrote: »

Yes, and their victims never got the chance to be old men. They should never sleep easy.

Their must not be many of them left. Are these trials going to continue into the mid 21st century.