What are typical topics First year secondary students struggle with in Maths?

markslattery · 25-04-2016 09:43PM #1

To any secondary school maths teachers, what are some topics that students just coming into secondary school tend to struggle with? Thanks in advance!

spurious · 25-04-2016 09:59PM

I have known children coming in who had not grasped multiplication or division.

r93kaey5p2izun · 25-04-2016 10:48PM

Well it's usually a given that they couldn't do long multiplication or long division without a calculator unfortunately, but this doesn't really hold them back in the new syllabus. They usually really struggle with fractions and then decimals and percentages to a lesser extent. Many don't know the order/priority of operations or have been taught it incorrectly. Rounding and estimating is also often poor.

Chilli Con Kearney · 25-04-2016 10:57PM

Stevie Tender Cookout wrote: »

Well it's usually a given that they couldn't do long multiplication or long division without a calculator unfortunately, but this doesn't really hold them back in the new syllabus. They usually really struggle with fractions and then decimals and percentages to a lesser extent. Many don't know the order/priority of operations or have been taught it incorrectly. Rounding and estimating is also often poor.

I agree with this. I think fractions is too complex a subject for first years and would tend to leave a focus on them until later.

mirrorwall14 · 26-04-2016 06:35AM

At a project maths inservice we were told to assume zero knowledge of fractions from primary school

silverharp · 26-04-2016 12:37PM

Chilli Con Kearney wrote: »

I agree with this. I think fractions is too complex a subject for first years and would tend to leave a focus on them until later.

as a parent my view is that kids are not taught enough in primary. My son is in 5th class now and a recent test still had a bunch of differences between 2 clock times on them so thats only addition and subtraction. in the US fractions are done at 4th and 5th grade and they dont exactly have a great reputation.

byhookorbycrook · 26-04-2016 05:39PM

Fractions start in the primary in a basic way in 1st class.

r93kaey5p2izun · 26-04-2016 05:55PM

mirrorwall14 wrote: »

At a project maths inservice we were told to assume zero knowledge of fractions from primary school

Yes. We were told to assume nothing more than the ability to count and add/subtract. Unfortunately, my experience is that that's about right.

RealJohn · 27-04-2016 12:19PM

I believe the answer to the OP's question is 'basic arithmetic'.

Say what you want about rote learning but knowing your multiplication tables and not understanding them is better than not knowing them and not understanding them. Primary teachers would be doing a great service to secondary maths teachers if they simply ensured that children could perform all of the basic operations, one way or another (but without using a calculator), and can deal with fractions when they come in in first year.

evolving_doors · 27-04-2016 08:26PM

I asked my first years last year to bring in their 6th class copies if they still had them. All were pretty much the same, (3different schools) pages and pages of answers. No words/sentences, no sketches, no rough work, just lists upon lists of numbers. I suppose all the questions and stages are laid out in the text books.

Anyhow it's probably partly my fault for not taking time out to visit a 6th class teacher to see what goes on. In saying all that though some had fractions/percentages down pat and others from the same schools were just lost, so maybe it's a transition/confidence thing too. But ask them to draw a picture, take down the question or show their workings and you get 'the slackjaw stare'.

Tis always the same though, I'm sure 3Rd level are scratching their heads too wondering what went on in secondary.

markslattery · 27-04-2016 08:42PM

Common theme seems to be fractions and basic operations. Apart from a grasp of the basics are there many concepts that students struggle tp get their heads around? Thanks for all the replies, very insightful.

markslattery · 27-04-2016 08:43PM

Common theme seems to be fractions and basic operations. Apart from a grasp of the basics are there many concepts/chapters that students struggle to get their heads around? Thanks for all the replies, very insightful.

doc_17 · 27-04-2016 08:49PM

Algebra. Every kind of it

mirrorwall14 · 27-04-2016 09:12PM

If they aren't a visual learner then geometry questions involving multiple shapes are difficult for students to 'see'. When parallel lines are combined with a triangle for example

evolving_doors · 27-04-2016 10:43PM

Just to throw it out there... are we in danger of generalising too much, do ' some ' students cope quite well and others won't no matter what the 'topic'. I know algebra might be a case of throwing enough mud and eventually it sticks. Like I've seen one student who couldn't get equations / fractions for 2 years, but they stuck with it and it's all clicking until place just before the JC.

Could it be an environmental thing that students are struggling with too (new teachers, new class, new style of teaching, not being as good as they thought compared to their 6th class peers etc.

Are we in danger of viewing the problem as coming from 'outside' our classroom only.

silverharp · 28-04-2016 09:04AM

Gebgbegb wrote: »

Just to throw it out there... are we in danger of generalising too much, do ' some ' students cope quite well and others won't no matter what the 'topic'. I know algebra might be a case of throwing enough mud and eventually it sticks. Like I've seen one student who couldn't get equations / fractions for 2 years, but they stuck with it and it's all clicking until place just before the JC.

Could it be an environmental thing that students are struggling with too (new teachers, new class, new style of teaching, not being as good as they thought compared to their 6th class peers etc.

Are we in danger of viewing the problem as coming from 'outside' our classroom only.

maths is just a peculiar beast, its one of the few subjects where cumulative gaps will really kill a student. you would have to question the logic of a kid passing through primary school and into the first couple of years of secondary and only averaging say 60% on class tests. they are still passing the test but something is up at the same time because its more than just making random mistakes, it goes back to something fundamental like the order of operations or the distributive property which pops up all over the place. Maybe it clicks later maybe it doesn't.

RealJohn · 28-04-2016 11:46AM

markslattery wrote: »

Common theme seems to be fractions and basic operations. Apart from a grasp of the basics are there many concepts that students struggle tp get their heads around? Thanks for all the replies, very insightful.

There are many things they don't get their heads around, simply because if multiply or factorise things without being very explicit about it every time, you lose them. In my experience, they don't tend to have a problem grasping the new concepts. They just can't perform them because they're so weak at basic operations.

evolving_doors · 28-04-2016 10:15PM

silverharp wrote: »

maths is just a peculiar beast, its one of the few subjects where cumulative gaps will really kill a student. you would have to question the logic of a kid passing through primary school and into the first couple of years of secondary and only averaging say 60% on class tests. they are still passing the test but something is up at the same time because its more than just making random mistakes, it goes back to something fundamental like the order of operations or the distributive property which pops up all over the place. Maybe it clicks later maybe it doesn't.

Maybe 60% for some is their limit, and getting that 60% is actually an achievement if they are putting in the effort. Of course we all want all of our students to get 100% (and go on to do honours!) but I think it is a case of staying positive and keep on trying and eventually for those weaker students it will click into place.

(BTW the examiners reports for JC and LC are out today on examinations.ie ,interesting to see the increased bunching around the D/E grades in Higher Level.)

silverharp · 29-04-2016 08:31AM

Gebgbegb wrote: »

Maybe 60% for some is their limit, and getting that 60% is actually an achievement if they are putting in the effort. Of course we all want all of our students to get 100% (and go on to do honours!) but I think it is a case of staying positive and keep on trying and eventually for those weaker students it will click into place.

(BTW the examiners reports for JC and LC are out today on examinations.ie ,interesting to see the increased bunching around the D/E grades in Higher Level.)

I'd accept that kids might hit a wall but ideally it should be mostly when the hit things like calculus. The problem is the conveyor belt system and the fact that kids are passed along from class to class without the gaps being corrected.
I started doing Khan Academy with my son back when he was 6 or 7 ( he is in 5th class now) but we are currently working though Algebra 1 (quadratics and similar) which Im guessing puts him about 4 years ahead. The main thing I noticed was the way the exercises are done, for each little group of question you have to get 5 or 6 right in a row, make 1 mistake on the 6th question and you have to do the 6 again. the next level is doing what they call "mastery challenges" so you get 6 random question on the whole grade and you have to get each one right 3 or 4 more times before its considered done or it drops you back a level. I don't think a teacher can keep an eye so closely on 30 kids, they would need to have the kids doing their homework using the program and intervene where a kid is struggling.
the suggestion that comes to mind based on the above is if a student gets "60%" on a mid term or xmas test keep making them retake the test every week until they get 85% or 90%. treat maths like getting "judo belts", the standard is the standard. Most of this comes down to repetition and getting more stuff hard coded in the brain for quick recall.

sryanbruen · 29-04-2016 09:26PM

When I was in first year, the topics that I tended to struggle with are:

- Order of operations
- Fractions
- Algebra (due to the way it was in the book but now it's so easy to me)
- Synthetic geometry

Just thought I'd share me own experience.

What are typical topics First year secondary students struggle with in Maths?

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