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Dairy Chit Chat- Please read Mod note in post #1

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  • #5522
    freedominacup
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,920 ✭✭✭freedominacup


    Milked out wrote: »
    Wouldn't say impossible Tim but more margin for error alrite. With strip wire here would give them a bit more for first grazing and leave em tidy it up over second or third or depending on paddock sizes may alternate day and night time grazing depending on what's left. Will try 36 and 48 hrs blocks on some paddocks this year but heavier ground wouldn't suit it as the "giving out" walking on the last grazing would possibly do more damage and walking the whole field in first grazings would dirty or lose more grass than on dry paddocks

    There id very little giving out walking done. One of the things I was most surprised by. Cows much more content on 36hr blocks. As Tim said they're always full on at least 2 out of the 3 grazings. And on the last one they're starting with a full belly so less of a hit on yield if you get it wrong. The biggest advantage beyond a reduction in the pita quantum of constantly moving fences is how much better heifers and lighter cows do on it. Much harder for the bullies to impose their will on an area three or four times the size they can control on 12hr breaks.

    Gg who many of us would consider to be a very tuned in young man used to call 12hr breaks controlled starvation. It's one of those things like dismissing 305 day yields in favour of kgs/ms sold and concentrating on reducing your calving index that you wonder why you weren't doing it all along once you start.

    Afaics the best managers have been doing it for a while (not incl myself in that catergory) and it's working for those of us who follow their lead. The one thing that's an absolute with me is that every management and husbandry practice we follow is completely open to question every day. If someone reliable/independent comes along and says try something different it will at least be considered.


  • #5523
    Brown Podzol
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,847 ✭✭✭Brown Podzol


    freedominacup wrote: »
    There id very little giving out walking done. One of the things I was most surprised by. Cows much more content on 36hr blocks. As Tim said they're always full on at least 2 out of the 3 grazings. And on the last one they're starting with a full belly so less of a hit on yield if you get it wrong. The biggest advantage beyond a reduction in the pita quantum of constantly moving fences is how much better heifers and lighter cows do on it. Much harder for the bullies to impose their will on an area three or four times the size they can control on 12hr breaks.

    Gg who many of us would consider to be a very tuned in young man used to call 12hr breaks controlled starvation. It's one of those things like dismissing 305 day yields in favour of kgs/ms sold and concentrating on reducing your calving index that you wonder why you weren't doing it all along once you start.

    Afaics the best managers have been doing it for a while (not incl myself in that catergory) and it's working for those of us who follow their lead. The one thing that's an absolute with me is that every management and husbandry practice we follow is completely open to question every day. If someone reliable/independent comes along and says try something different it will at least be considered.

    Agree with all of that and the only thing I would add is that your herd will find it harder to express their potential on twelve hour blocks, be it litres, solids or fertility. Give them 36/48 hour blocks quality grass and let them show you what they can do.


  • #5524
    kevthegaff
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,084 ✭✭✭kevthegaff


    On 24,36 hr blocks here. If tight as Tim says let into new block 2/3 hrs later. I have gravity flow system for 1/2 the paddocks so doesn't suit strip wire atm until more work on added/moving troughs in the future.


  • #5525
    jaymla627
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,128 ✭✭✭jaymla627


    Brown Podzol wrote: »
    Agree with all of that and the only thing I would add is that your herd will find it harder to express their potential on twelve hour blocks, be it litres, solids or fertility. Give them 36/48 hour blocks quality grass and let them show you what they can do.

    Cows hit 33 litres here this morning 3.75bf 3.5pr, 534 kgs sent on co-op report last year 45% heifers, should hit 580kgs this year of 1.3-1.5 ton of meal.....
    If I was only feeding 300-500 kgs a cow I'd probably pinch cows for feed alright but with 4-8kg going into cows nearly all year have no issues that way


  • #5526
    trixi2011
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,538 ✭✭✭trixi2011


    not the biggest man of 36hr breaks prefer to use 24hr breaks myself. the problem with 36 hour breaks in my mind is that cows end up finishing paddocks at night when your not round to see them. If the cows are back in the paddock at 6pm and have paddock cleared by 10pm they could end up at the gate for 5/6 hours not eating. Allways start a 24hr here in the evening when sugars are highest in grass and finish during the day, will be let on early if tight on grass and back to the paddock to clean up for an hour after milking if not fully cleaned out. Hate 12hr breaks with a passion


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  • #5527
    Dawggone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,506 ✭✭✭Dawggone


    Dawggone wrote: »
    Open day Sun24 next.
    "Low cost, high output"
    All welco
    Add your reply here.

    Over and done.
    Poor turnout as most doing 1st cut and planting maize...

    Whole load of stupid Q's....
    Can the Irish produce for 12cpl...
    Why concentrate on margin...
    Why spend money on paddocks....
    Etc etc. Annoying!

    Opinions were...
    I'm crazy for going to flying herd...
    Indoor system more industrial ( even though less profitable!)
    I'm over dependent on clover...grass too rich etc.

    They did listen when copies of the recent stress test were handed out...


  • #5528
    Sam Kade
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,297 ✭✭✭✭Sam Kade


    mf240 wrote: »
    Thats good going.

    They are mostly second calvers which is a great help. Even though my vacuum pump is not putting out enough vacuum for the new regulations.


  • #5529
    Buford T. Justice XIX
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,633 ✭✭✭✭Buford T. Justice XIX


    trixi2011 wrote: »
    not the biggest man of 36hr breaks prefer to use 24hr breaks myself. the problem with 36 hour breaks in my mind is that cows end up finishing paddocks at night when your not round to see them. If the cows are back in the paddock at 6pm and have paddock cleared by 10pm they could end up at the gate for 5/6 hours not eating. Allways start a 24hr here in the evening when sugars are highest in grass and finish during the day, will be let on early if tight on grass and back to the paddock to clean up for an hour after milking if not fully cleaned out. Hate 12hr breaks with a passion
    A friend has a gap between each paddock and will allocate a bit of extra grass from the next paddock if he thinks they will be finished too early. We were talking about using the gate opening text yoke to drop the fence after the cows had finished up the old paddock, opening at, say, 12-1 am so they will have a fresh paddock but still finish off the old paddock.


  • #5530
    Milked out
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,433 ✭✭✭Milked out


    Dawggone wrote: »
    Add your reply here.

    Over and done.
    Poor turnout as most doing 1st cut and planting maize...

    Whole load of stupid Q's....
    Can the Irish produce for 12cpl...
    Why concentrate on margin...
    Why spend money on paddocks....
    Etc etc. Annoying!

    Opinions were...
    I'm crazy for going to flying herd...
    Indoor system more industrial ( even though less profitable!)
    I'm over dependent on clover...grass too rich etc.

    They did listen when copies of the recent stress test were handed out...

    Would tb or other diseases restrictions in movement be a worry for you dawg?


  • #5531
    Buford T. Justice XIX
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,633 ✭✭✭✭Buford T. Justice XIX


    Dawggone wrote: »
    Add your reply here.

    Over and done.
    Poor turnout as most doing 1st cut and planting maize...

    Whole load of stupid Q's....
    Can the Irish produce for 12cpl...
    Why concentrate on margin...
    Why spend money on paddocks....
    Etc etc. Annoying!

    Opinions were...
    I'm crazy for going to flying herd...
    Indoor system more industrial ( even though less profitable!)
    I'm over dependent on clover...grass too rich etc.

    They did listen when copies of the recent stress test were handed out...
    Think of yourself as a farming missionary, teaching the heathen masses the true belief of letting the cows do the work they were designed for themselves:p


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  • #5532
    Dawggone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,506 ✭✭✭Dawggone


    Milked out wrote: »
    Would tb or other diseases restrictions in movement be a worry for you dawg?

    Nope. The only problem here is IBR and now Bluetongue.
    Their query was why lose your best breeding after so many years of putting it together...ye know my answer!
    Then what will I do when replacements get expensive...breed my own!


    I honestly will never again waste my time with a bunch of spoiled/spoonfed egits. Saying that there were quite a few sharp operators there also.


    Crop walk here next week. Much better crowd. Well used to ducking and diving.


  • #5533
    Dawggone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,506 ✭✭✭Dawggone


    Buford T. Justice V wrote: »
    Think of yourself as a farming missionary, teaching the heathen masses the true belief of letting the cows do the work they were designed for themselves:p

    I wasn't preaching grass Sheriff.
    Low cost was the theme. Dept of Ag organised the day.
    One guy there was losing €18k/month and was demanding that market changes...not *him*!

    Jesus wept.


  • #5534
    freedominacup
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,920 ✭✭✭freedominacup


    Buford T. Justice V wrote: »
    A friend has a gap between each paddock and will allocate a bit of extra grass from the next paddock if he thinks they will be finished too early. We were talking about using the gate opening text yoke to drop the fence after the cows had finished up the old paddock, opening at, say, 12-1 am so they will have a fresh paddock but still finish off the old paddock.

    We had plenty of them. Never a great job. Cows just abandon the old paddock and then you always have water issues. They'd sooner stand at the strip fence bawling than take a single step back and go back around through the gap to get to a water trough.


  • #5535
    blackdog1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,185 ✭✭✭blackdog1


    Dawggone wrote: »
    I wasn't preaching grass Sheriff.
    Low cost was the theme. Dept of Ag organised the day.
    One guy there was losing €18k/month and was demanding that market changes...not *him*!

    Jesus wept.

    Personally I think if you showed your system when milk prices were high you would get a better reaction. I remember Teagasc doing a farm walk in 09 and quoting 16c as cost of production. Farmers probably thought you were there because co-ops wanted to show farmers they are paying a good price for milk. Therefore they just wanted to pick holes in your system.


  • #5536
    rangler1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,497 ✭✭✭rangler1


    Buford T. Justice V wrote: »
    Think of yourself as a farming missionary, teaching the heathen masses the true belief of letting the cows do the work they were designed for themselves:p

    And let me add, he does it so patiently.......would love to hear the heathen masses version of today


  • #5537
    whelan2
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 30,791 ✭✭✭✭whelan2


    cows out tonight, it was a long winter


  • #5538
    Dawggone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,506 ✭✭✭Dawggone


    blackdog1 wrote: »
    Personally I think if you showed your system when milk prices were high you would get a better reaction. I remember Teagasc doing a farm walk in 09 and quoting 16c as cost of production. Farmers probably thought you were there because co-ops wanted to show farmers they are paying a good price for milk. Therefore they just wanted to pick holes in your system.

    This was organised by Dept of Ag.
    The moaners were having a go at the Dept for not wiping their ar*ses for them...

    Quotas spoiled some folk and instilled a sense of entitlement.


  • #5539
    visatorro
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,853 ✭✭✭visatorro


    Milk man let me down. Waiting on tank to wash. I'll be late for work


  • #5540
    RightTurnClyde
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,143 ✭✭✭RightTurnClyde


    Is this the new quota
    http://www.poandpo.com/agrifish/dutch-dairy-farmers-to-reduce-numbers-of-cows-significantly-25-4-2016/


  • #5541
    Dawggone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,506 ✭✭✭Dawggone


    RightTurnClyde wrote: »
    Is this the new quota
    http://www.poandpo.com/agrifish/dutch-dairy-farmers-to-reduce-numbers-of-cows-significantly-25-4-2016/

    It's anticipated that it will reduce Dutch dairy herd by 4 to 8%.


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  • #5542
    Sam Kade
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,297 ✭✭✭✭Sam Kade


    visatorro wrote: »
    Milk man let me down. Waiting on tank to wash. I'll be late for work

    He never turned it on?


  • #5543
    RightTurnClyde
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,143 ✭✭✭RightTurnClyde


    Dawggone wrote: »
    It's anticipated that it will reduce Dutch dairy herd by 4 to 8%.

    A big thumbs up to that.
    But I can't help but think that, with Brussels efforts to protect the small farmers, and with the green agenda, one way or the other we're going to see new quotas in some shape or form across all of Europe


  • #5544
    whelan2
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 30,791 ✭✭✭✭whelan2


    Sam Kade wrote: »
    He never turned it on?
    Does everyone do a full tank wash after every collection? Daily collection here and I just get milkman to turn washer on every second day


  • #5545
    mahoney_j
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,720 ✭✭✭✭mahoney_j


    RightTurnClyde wrote: »
    A big thumbs up to that.
    But I can't help but think that, with Brussels efforts to protect the small farmers, and with the green agenda, one way or the other we're going to see new quotas in some shape or form across all of Europe

    Well if quotas in any form come back they have to be implemented in places like New Zealand ,oz America as well.if not all it'll do is put European farmers at a huge disadvantage once again and give them back the huge open goal they e been using to expand at our loss for over 30 years


  • #5546
    Milked out
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,433 ✭✭✭Milked out


    whelan2 wrote: »
    Sam Kade wrote: »
    He never turned it on?
    Does everyone do a full tank wash after every collection? Daily collection here and I just get milkman to turn washer on every second day
    Add your reply here.
    whelan2 wrote: »
    Sam Kade wrote: »
    He never turned it on?
    Does everyone do a full tank wash after every collection? Daily collection here and I just get milkman to turn washer on every second day
    Add your reply here.

    Yeah but collected every second day, well emptied anyway.


  • #5547
    kowtow
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,135 ✭✭✭kowtow


    mahoney_j wrote: »
    Well if quotas in any form come back they have to be implemented in places like New Zealand ,oz America as well.if not all it'll do is put European farmers at a huge disadvantage once again and give them back the huge open goal they e been using to expand at our loss for over 30 years

    The trouble is the effect of global milk markets (painful or otherwise) is directly related to the ratio of marginal export to local liquid & manufacturing milk in any given market.

    With a big liquid market & a thriving local cheese business, for example, quotas would be enough support to French farmers to turn their eyes away from global powder exports. Same for Germany, UK etc. perhaps to differing degrees.

    In Ireland, OTOH, marginal export is basically 100% of the business so limiting production by quota doesn't change the average selling price one bit - it just gives NZ etc. a free run. The Netherlands would be similar I imagine, perhaps a bit less so.

    I suppose a two tier quota system where - if you wanted quota - you couldn't supply export milk might work for those markets which wanted it but there would certainly be unforeseen consequences and it wouldn't make much difference here as far as I can see.


  • #5548
    Dawggone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,506 ✭✭✭Dawggone


    mahoney_j wrote: »
    Well if quotas in any form come back they have to be implemented in places like New Zealand ,oz America as well.if not all it'll do is put European farmers at a huge disadvantage once again and give them back the huge open goal they e been using to expand at our loss for over 30 years

    As I see it's either...

    1. Keep going as we are with a race to the bottom and see who goes broke first...

    2. Regulate the market...

    Choose 1. and get bigger or get out.

    Choose 2. and smaller producers survive.


    Do we allow a Capitalist or a Socialist to choose? No...we are allowing Politicians to choose. Lovely.


  • #5549
    Dawggone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,506 ✭✭✭Dawggone


    kowtow wrote: »
    The trouble is the effect of global milk markets (painful or otherwise) is directly related to the ratio of marginal export to local liquid & manufacturing milk in any given market.

    With a big liquid market & a thriving local cheese business, for example, quotas would be enough support to French farmers to turn their eyes away from global powder exports. Same for Germany, UK etc. perhaps to differing degrees.

    In Ireland, OTOH, marginal export is basically 100% of the business so limiting production by quota doesn't change the average selling price one bit - it just gives NZ etc. a free run. The Netherlands would be similar I imagine, perhaps a bit less so.

    I suppose a two tier quota system where - if you wanted quota - you couldn't supply export milk might work for those markets which wanted it but there would certainly be unforeseen consequences and it wouldn't make much difference here as far as I can see.

    +1. In a nutshell.

    The Irish and NZ dairy farmers are totally exposed to world market...

    It's really a question of who goes broke first.

    Small producers are leaving dairy here in their droves, but production overall is rising. Big are getting bigger..


  • #5550
    freedominacup
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,920 ✭✭✭freedominacup


    Dawggone wrote: »

    Small producers are leaving dairy here in their droves, but production overall is rising. Big are getting bigger..

    What's droves dawg? On average over the lifetime of quotas around 10 farmers per day stopped producing milk here. Dairy farmer numbers may have risen slightly in the past twelve months though. Where would we be if we'd had no quota? Double current numbers???


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  • #5551
    kowtow
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,135 ✭✭✭kowtow


    Dawggone wrote: »
    As I see it's either...

    Choose 2. and smaller producers survive.

    Although maybe not in Ireland given the dependence on world markets?

    I would add that there is a third option for Ireland (where we are long past the point where regulating the market would help) and that is to somehow develop a local premium value stream for the smaller farms to supply into... a two tier system if you like where those that get big can get big and those that want to stay small can specialise... but it's much easier to say than to do and it won't work at all if we rely on the industry to do it.

    I often wondered, for example, whether young farmer supports for dairy should be ended but co-ops should only hand out winter / liquid milk contracts to young farmers... hard work in return for a leg up... I'm sure there are plenty of reasons why it wouldn't work but it seems a bit less corrupt than handing out extra cash for the concrete suppliers to buy new cars with.


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