The Academies

ArmchairQB wrote: »

There will be under 20 camps this summer but no inter provincial 20s games, in it place will be a development inter pro series so no age limits but by its nature under 23 to include most academy players and will run the same time as the old 20s camps ran

But as these games are all about development is that not better that its development styled games involved more of the academy players? With the best academy players playing in Pro12. It may affect 20s but should also improve the players as development styled games with teams not limited by age be a higher standard than strictly under 20 games.

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

I did wink

But regardless of who's making the point, the current setup really doesn't give a lot of playing time to academy players. The number of matches at B+I and 'A' level for a third year academy player is miniscule. He's also right in saying that the AIL players aren't as far apart from the standard of the academy players as some would think.

It is 6 A interpros and 6 B&I cup but most don't play that much. When you say AIL players compared to academy players there is a huge range of AIL players so you mean who exactly???

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

He's saying that the academy players playing at 'A' level and B+I cup (and if you check, they get very little of this anyway) is a waste of time and they should be playing full time in the AIL. I was saying the same except that they play as a squad but I'm not hung up on that. The point about them not being available week in, week out to their supposed AIL clubs is the reason I suggested this in the first place.

I don't think less A games will happen and academy teams playing in AIL shouldn't happen. Academy players should be playing A games within provincial set up/style that isn't possible in the club game. If academy players are not made available to clubs in your opinion then what gives you the idea that this would happen?

Bazzo wrote: »

Unless I'm mistaken the A teams are getting around 9 or 10 games a season at the minute but that only includes one match with each other province's a team. Why not set up a home and away game with each and up the amount of games they're playing by a third for a start? It will hardly cost anything extra and get some more meaningful derbies going.

It has varied season by season how many times each provinces a teams have played each other. Like last season Munster A played Ulster 3 times but Leinster and Connacht once.

RobbieRuns wrote: »

I think they will scrap the U20 interpros soon and have an academies competition.

But is that best for irish 20s and prep for that? An academies competition will mainly have players older than 20s. How do you pick irish 20s squad then?

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

It is 6 A interpros and 6 B&I cup but most don't play that much. When you say AIL players compared to academy players there is a huge range of AIL players so you mean who exactly???

Did you even read Corkery's interview? Corkery didn't specifically name any AIL players :rolleyes:, one would assume he's talking about division 1A or 1B where the standard is quite high and where the academy players are supposed to be playing when they're available.

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

I don't think less A games will happen and academy teams playing in AIL shouldn't happen. Academy players should be playing A games within provincial set up/style that isn't possible in the club game. If academy players are not made available to clubs in your opinion then what gives you the idea that this would happen?

What does this even mean? I'm sure you're trying to make a point, but you don't seem to understand mine.
The academy players barely play any A games or B+I cup games. Some of them have never played at all and others like the example I gave have played 3 A games in three years in the academy. Then there's their supposed availability for their AIL clubs which is patchy and a frustration to the AIL clubs concerned.
Playing in their provincial 'style' isn't happening anyway because they barely get any run outs in the few games that are available to them within the provincial structure. The few that are picked to play with the senior team are the lucky ones, but the rest just kick their heels playing the odd AIL game and (if lucky enough) a B+I/A game or two every year.

By all means, leave them play the odd A games that come their way, but either let them play week in, week out for their AIL club or else form a provincial academy team and have that play 'in the provinicial style' in the AIL.

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Ah lads this is just silly, the AIL is a great amateur league but its a step down and always will be.

The A teams are the answer for development of both players and coaches. They're working exactly as intended. Academy players don't need to be playing full time at all, due to their semesterisation, they actually specifically need more freedom than senior players. This is something coaches have learned through years and years of developmental work inside and outside of Ireland, and it was kiwi coaches who worked through it with us when I was that age. Maybe it's hard to understand but suggestions of scrapping the A sides are absolutely hilarious.

Well at least you've given an insight into what the purpose of the current structure is rather than muddled explanations and flat out negatives dressed up as discussion.

I certainly wasn't suggesting scrapping the A sides. Just pointing out the fallacy of saying that academy players get to play in the A sides when they clearly don't get anything more than crumbs.

seliot1 wrote: »

Your stat about Crosbie playing 3 A games in 3 years in not accurate:

Thanks. That'll teach me to take the Leinster website for gospel

seliot1 wrote: »

You can complain about it or accept it's the reality of having academy players at your club, they are being developed for the province and professional rugby, club rugby is just a part of that process. Either make the most of it or don't rely on them as much.

I think the latter choice is being adopted by and large. To the detriment of the academy player's development as players imo.

The problem with that, is a widening of the gap between clubs and provinces and a growing disconnect to the detriment of the game in general.

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

I think the latter choice is being adopted by and large. To the detriment of the academy player's development as players imo.

The problem with that, is a widening of the gap between clubs and provinces and a growing disconnect to the detriment of the game in general.

Absolutely agree with the above. Whatever side of the argument you are on nothing productive is going to come of the current situation continuing.

seliot1 wrote: »

There should be a gap between a professional team and amateurs. Leinster should be looking to widen that gap, clubs can't realistically do what a professional setup can and leinster should be aiming to be playing rugby at a much higher level than an AIL club is.

The days of club rugby being anywhere near the standard of pro rugby should be long gone and if the gap is closing it's reflection on the provinces falling off.

It's not like AIL is producing professional players of a standard higher than that of the academies, the handful of decent players are brought into the professional setup and most are nothing more than squad players. Some improve massively under the guidance of pro coaches, most go back to the AIL or head to the championship.

Could you have picked a worse season to make that ridiculous point? Healy, Ronaldson, Adeoloken..... really have proved to be awful

How many academy guys have gone on to be AIL players or head of to the championship or ProD?

seliot1 wrote: »

There are a small percentage in touching distance of pro rugby, but most of them are at best squad players at a province. The clubs aren't producing internationals that have been overlooked by the academy setup.

Really?

Internationals now? We were talking about professional players and now you've upped the ante to internationals? I'm sorry but that's the very tip of the pyramid and you can't expect an overlap from amateur level to international level and I've never said that.

At pro level, Munster weren't prepared to offer Ultan Dillane anything more than a sub-academy slot when Connacht stepped in and snapped him up. Finlay Bealham was let go from Ulster. Dave McSharry was taken directly from AIL as was Darragh Fanning and even going back as far as Jerry Flannery there's been a connection between AIL and professional rugby and in some cases (yes I'm bringing it up now ) that has continued on up to international level; but not before those players have proven themselves at the next level down first.

irishbucsfan wrote: »

AIL is a long way off pro rugby. There are other leagues that exist in the gap between the two and even they're quite a ways off the provinces (Chamionship is a good example, upper echelons of the ITM as well).

In its generality, yes it is and that's to be expected. I'm not making any kind of blanket comparison, all I'm saying is that at a certain level within AIL, there should be a crossover to pro level. It can be a very small intersection and it's rare enough that players cross the line, but to put them in separate boxes and say they should never intersect is wrong.

Tarf1234 wrote: »

Both of your examples are pro or semi pro.... Not really a decent comparison.

I don't think anyone has suggested that every AIL player is good enough to go pro. There are players like Danny Riordan and Scott Deasy who clearly were and are and have decided to give up playing pro rugby. There are other like Healy, McGrath, Fanning, Ronaldson, Adeoken, James Hart who were 'not good enough' for academies but were later given pro rugby contracts. Some of these have actually managed to prove that the AIL is not full of people who struggle to tie their laces despite what some of you might believe.

It is actually a decent comparison. It's a description of the gap that exists between clubs and their provinces. That gap widens and narrows all the time based on various things (mostly coaching in my opinion). The B&I Cup gives the provinces an opportunity to see their young guys competing at a higher standard so that they can better gauge their readiness for Pro 12 rugby during periods when the senior squad is focused on elite level rugby.

Noone is saying the AIL is full of people who struggle to tie their laces. I played for an AIL club after leaving school before emigrating to England, and honestly the main/only reason I would want to move home is so that I can return to the club!

RobbieRuns wrote: »

You don't actually think that the Irish U20 squad is picked from the interpro games?

The prior Irish U18 squads, the schools games, the Irish U19 squads and training camps will have decided who goes in the U20 squads. The interpro games at U20 have become more and more irrelevant.

I would say that the majority if not all of the squad that the McEntee/Carolan coaching ticket want will play in the new academy games (most will be academy or sub academy anyways) alongside older players, but nearly all will be no more than 23. The only real lads who will lose out are those who are on the edge of provincial squads who would have had a highlight of representing their province. Just a decision that has been taken as I believe, a Nucifora thing, shaking it up a bit.

The 20s squads is based significantly on the interpros. The prior under 18 and 19 squads have virtually no relevance on picking the 20s as that could be 4-16 months prior to the under 20 internationals. But you lose out on selection of the overall squad. If you have less under 20s players and less under 19 players playing it hurts the picking of the squad overall and quality.

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

The academy players barely play any A games or B+I cup games. Some of them have never played at all and others like the example I gave have played 3 A games in three years in the academy. Then there's their supposed availability for their AIL clubs which is patchy and a frustration to the AIL clubs concerned.
Playing in their provincial 'style' isn't happening anyway because they barely get any run outs in the few games that are available to them within the provincial structure. The few that are picked to play with the senior team are the lucky ones, but the rest just kick their heels playing the odd AIL game and (if lucky enough) a B+I/A game or two every year.

By all means, leave them play the odd A games that come their way, but either let them play week in, week out for their AIL club or else form a provincial academy team and have that play 'in the provinicial style' in the AIL.

Having a provincial academy team in the AIL hurts the clubs and wont ever happen. Playing A teams elsewhere will always happen and the AIL clubs just have to accept that. The Academy players are playing a significant amount of AIL bar injury and if in irish 20s

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

IRFU have appointed provincial talent coaches in each of the provinces and they will work with domestic rugby staff, looking at kids from the age of 15 and 16 to ensure the best structures are in place to identify talent and then bring that best talent into the development pathways
Trevor Hogan will be the coach in Leinster, while Mark Butler has been appointed in Munster.
Michael Black will work in Ulster, while Colm Tucker will be in Connacht.

I saw that but don't really get the remit. Is it just under 15/16 club inter pro players?