Removal of Aggressive Tennant

pnormal44 · 19-04-2016 10:28pm #1

Any Tenancy / PRTB experts out there - Advice very welcome. I am a Landlord with 4 bedroom house with 4 tenants. I recently issued termination notices and 3 of the tenants departed but I am having difficulty evicting the one remaining tenant who has been a tenant since 2009. This particular tenant has a history of aggressive and intimidating behaviour. To complicate matters further, I also live at the address in a quality Wooden/Seomra unit in the back garden. I have my own separate entrance and the Seomra area is only accessible by me. The remaining tenant is currently under service of an “”Intention to Sell”” 168 day notice which stipulates a July 15 termination date and I fully expect him to over hold beyond this date and I also expect he will play the situation out until the District Court / Sherriff procedure comes into play. My calculation is that it might be mid 2017 before I can finally close the situation. This tenant is aggressive and has been a thorn in my side since he moved on 6/7 years ago. The current situation is that this tenant now occupies the 4 bedroom house and I no longer receive the rent from the departed tenants. I have offered him a payment to depart but to no avail. One last complication is that I pay the utility bills and previously each of the 4 tenants contributed a fixed amount – now I must pay the bills with only one fixed amount being contributed. Am I legally obliged to continue paying the bills considering there is no written contract? I have got myself into an awful mess. Anyone any idea how I can avoid waiting til mid 2017 for closure?

Michael D Not Higgins · 19-04-2016 10:38pm

pnormal44 wrote: »

Would an illegal eviction be advisable?

No

Anyone advising illegal actions will be infracted

Gatling · 19-04-2016 10:48pm

Could actually moving into the house yourself and make the difficulty tenant a licencee, then be able to make it easier getting rid of said tenant

pnormal44 · 19-04-2016 11:05pm

Gatling - interesting suggestion but I don't think a Landlord can simply move into a house with his tenant as it changes the terms of his tenancy. But once the notice has reached its end date - it might be possible. Any elaboration from you or other members would be appreciated.

athtrasna · 19-04-2016 11:08pm

pnormal44 wrote: »

Gatling - interesting suggestion but I don't think a Landlord can simply move into a house with his tenant as it changes the terms of his tenancy. But once the notice has reached its end date - it might be possible. Any elaboration from you or other members would be appreciated.

You should seek legal advice before considering this. Our forum members are very knowledgeable but still it is better to speak to a professional rather than take the advice of strangers on an internet forum. (No disrespect to Gatling, just a general caveat)

ED E · 19-04-2016 11:12pm

Correct me if I'm wrong here but if you rented 4 rooms individually and not the whole house doesn't that automatically classify the individuals as licensees not tenants? (Much easier to remove).

amcalester · 19-04-2016 11:13pm

Could you close off the utility accounts at least?

pnormal44 · 19-04-2016 11:18pm

The 4 tenants shared the whole house - now the one remaining tenant has the whole house to himself. As I live in separate dwelling even though it is on the site - he / they have tenant status. I would need to live in actual house for non tenant status to be the case.

pnormal44 · 19-04-2016 11:21pm

As far as I am aware - my payment of utility bills is part of the unwritten contract I have agreed to as this has been status quo for years. Also, my dwelling in part of same electricity connection / bill.

19-04-2016 11:22pm

If you rented the rooms seperately to each person there is a strong case for them being licensees not tenants as none of them had exclusive use of the property.

Also the suggestion of moving in yourself is a good one. There are 3 spare rooms, I don't see any reason why you couldn't "rent" one to yourself rather than any other random person on the planet.

MarkAnthony · 19-04-2016 11:28pm

He's been a thorn in your side for goin on seven years which presumably made him a thorn in various other people's sides, especially the ones that didn't get to live in a shed away from it all.

I've no sympathy but I will offer some advice; you've messed about for the better part of a decade, now that the chickens have come home to roost do what you should have done 6 years ago and get along to a solicitor.

pnormal44 · 19-04-2016 11:35pm

Have done that already MarkAnthony. Problem is that even solicitors have difficulty dissecting some of the complex minutia regarding rental law. The whole system is now totally biased towards the tenant and Landlords have very limited rights despite being the property owner. It is a disgrace and I cannot wait to cease being a Landlord. The effect of the ridiculous new rules will be fewer Landlords and fewer dwellings available for rent. The opposite effect that was intended!!!

MarkAnthony · 19-04-2016 11:38pm

pnormal44 wrote: »

Have done that already MarkAnthony. Problem is that even solicitors have difficulty dissecting some of the complex minutia regarding rental law.

Not the competent ones or the ones with access to barristers (which is all of them).

Anyway, my particular bee in my bonnet about landlords not resolving issues are my own. You need to get along to a competent solicitor who may need to seek a specialist opinion. Once that's done hopefully you'll be in a position to treat him as a licencee, get the guards involved. The longer you leave it the more of a pain in the arse this thorn is going to become so I'd suggest tomorrow you're on the phone to a half decent solicitors firm.

rawn · 19-04-2016 11:50pm

MarkAnthony wrote: »

He's been a thorn in your side for goin on seven years which presumably made him a thorn in various other people's sides, especially the ones that didn't get to live in a shed away from it all.

I've no sympathy but I will offer some advice; you've messed about for the better part of a decade, now that the chickens have come home to roost do what you should have done 6 years ago and get along to a solicitor.

That's a bit harsh, he hardly forced the other tenants to live there!

Anyways, OP I would suggest engaging with the PRTB asap to figure out the best, legal solution to ridding him from your property. Best of luck.

MarkAnthony · 19-04-2016 11:54pm

rawn wrote: »

That's a bit harsh, he hardly forced the other tenants to live there!

Anyways, OP I would suggest engaging with the PRTB asap to figure out the best, legal solution to ridding him from your property. Best of luck.

Firstly neighbours aren't so mobile, secondly do you think he declared to potential renters that there was an aggressive tenant in situ or do you think they found out after all their stuff was in and deposits paid?

newacc2015 · 20-04-2016 12:29am

Did you ever go to a solicitor about this? I dont think the Residential tenancy act applied if the landlord lived at the accommodation. Did you check to see if your living situation counts as being an owner occupier? Did you formally split the deeds on the house from the seomra? Do you have a separate water and ESB connection?

pnormal44 · 20-04-2016 12:39am

Primarily the tenant has only been aggressive towards me. If a new tenant moved in that he did not approve of - he made their life difficult and that tenant didn't stay long. In actual fact he was quite good at forming a community as long as his fellow tenants were on his wavelength. Examples of his behaviors over the years has been illegal drug usage, late night parties (til 8am!!!!), - he actually once urinated on a female tenants bedroom door after disturbing her at 5am during one of his parties. He is a nightmare but knows how to play the system. I should have addressed this years ago.

MarkAnthony · 20-04-2016 12:39am

I wish I'd never happened across this thread. That extension is going to end up being expensive!

pnormal44 · 20-04-2016 12:43am

Unsure what you mean MarkAnthony? Have no idea what u mean?

MarkAnthony · 20-04-2016 12:44am

pnormal44 wrote: »

Unsure what you mean MarkAnthony? Have no idea what u mean?

http://www.shomera.ie/garden-rooms/

pnormal44 · 20-04-2016 12:48am

So you thinking of building one yourself? LOL

MarkAnthony · 20-04-2016 12:49am

pnormal44 wrote: »

So you thinking of building one yourself? LOL

I am now!

To drag this back on topic as it was my derailment, sorry. If this thing is attached I'd be quietly optimistic about getting advice to the effect that the tenants were infact licensees. However don't take that as legal advice in any shape or form!

Did you register with the PRTB?

tinpib · 20-04-2016 12:50am

pnormal44 wrote: »

Examples of his behaviors over the years has been illegal drug usage, late night parties (til 8am!!!!), - he actually once urinated on a female tenants bedroom door after disturbing her at 5am during one of his parties.

That all sounds like perfectly normal behaviour for a huge chunk of the population from 18-30 OP.

You could be the most caring, decent, honest person while doing all the above.
8am parties regularly and not once-off would be a different story.

Any other details on what he has done in particular his aggression? Just curious.

Spanish Eyes · 20-04-2016 1:02am

I would just say I lived there and three licensees have left and I am left here with this moron.

Clear the Shomera of everything that looks like a living/sleeping place straight away, and move back into the main house now.

I am not sure that Shomera are to be used as living spaces unless you have planning for that, do you? Does it have cooking and sanitary facilities? Sticky wicket maybe.

It is your word against his surely as to where you sleep/live, if all your utilities are on the same bill and you clear out the outbuilding? But if the Shomera is fully equipped as a living space there could be trouble ahead if it doesn't have planning for that. But maybe it has.

Wish you luck. But a solicitor/legal advice is going to be needed in the long run I think.

pnormal44 · 20-04-2016 1:09am

Have registered with the PRTB so as far as I am aware I have just one option. Go through the PRTB route right up until I have a determination and then if necessary, go to the District Court and have the sheriff remove him. Then sell the house. We both still live here. Him in the 4 Bedroom house and me in the Seomra. Disturbing the peace effects my life so I guess, I will have to wait a year or so?

Spanish Eyes · 20-04-2016 1:22am

Could I ask why you renewed the lease with this Difficult tenant for years if he was causing so much grief to you for 7 years.

Something doesn't add up here.

At the first smell of trouble, you should have started the notices.

cocaliquid · 20-04-2016 1:23am

pnormal44 wrote: »

Primarily the tenant has only been aggressive towards me. If a new tenant moved in that he did not approve of - he made their life difficult and that tenant didn't stay long. In actual fact he was quite good at forming a community as long as his fellow tenants were on his wavelength. Examples of his behaviors over the years has been illegal drug usage, late night parties (til 8am!!!!), - he actually once urinated on a female tenants bedroom door after disturbing her at 5am during one of his parties. He is a nightmare but knows how to play the system. I should have addressed this years ago.

Sounds like your a terrible landlord do as little as possible collect rent and hide at the bottom of the garden.

pnormal44 · 20-04-2016 1:28am

The PRTB regulations hand cuff Landlords re house access etc....... Very difficult to intervene in situations.

pnormal44 · 20-04-2016 1:33am

Fair point!! Issued several notices over the years but due to my own incompetence regarding proper research of how to construct PRTB Notices plus a difficulty in dealing with intimidation - I have so far not succeeded in successful termination. The current notice is solicitor assisted and I feel sure will eventually be successful.

MarkAnthony · 20-04-2016 1:35am

pnormal44 wrote: »

Fair point!! Issued several notices over the years but due to my own incompetence regarding proper research of how to construct PRTB Notices plus a difficulty in dealing with intimidation - I have so far not succeeded in successful termination. The current notice is solicitor assisted and I feel sure will eventually be successful.

Okay so registered with the PRTB. It sounds as if you have it handled other than to say you can terminate for anti-social behaviour much faster than a notice to sell. Some solicitors have also been finding novel ways to use the criminal law against tenants overholding.

pnormal44 · 20-04-2016 1:41am

Handled yes - but the required wait for removal is totally unjust. The Law is an Ass!!!

newacc2015 · 20-04-2016 2:23am

MarkAnthony wrote: »

I am now!

To drag this back on topic as it was my derailment, sorry. If this thing is attached I'd be quietly optimistic about getting advice to the effect that the tenants were infact licensees. However don't take that as legal advice in any shape or form!

Did you register with the PRTB?

That what I think too, that the OP might be able to prove they are in fact licensees. He needs to go to a Solicitor to find out obviously.

OP you can still register an licensee agreement incorrectly with the PRTB.

pnormal44 · 20-04-2016 2:43am

OP? Whats that? I already have a ruling from PRTB that they are not licensees.

tinpib · 20-04-2016 3:04am

pnormal44 wrote: »

OP? Whats that? I already have a ruling from PRTB that they are not licensees.

OP = Original Poster, i.e. the person who starts a thread/post online.

20-04-2016 8:58am

pnormal44 wrote: »

OP? Whats that? I already have a ruling from PRTB that they are not licensees.

I wouldn't take that as gospel, they will of course try to side with tenants. If rooms are let separately with no exclusive access to the house its very hard to argue they are full blown tenants.

I still think you should just move yourself in as a new housemate, there are spare rooms, you need to fill them why can't one of them be filled by you? If it really is the case that the only person on the planet you cannot move into the spare rooms is the LL then its gone to levels of crazy never seen before.

If I was you op I'd move in this evening and take it from there.

Irishcrx · 20-04-2016 9:34am

As others have said , move into the house and make him a licensee then evict him. Probably won't be pleasant but just bear with it and get it over with.

If the utilities are seperate from the house , cut them off and force his hand. Won't stay long without electricity , water , heating..

SEPT 23 1989 · 20-04-2016 10:55am

Have you any large friends who could move into the house for a while and make his life a living hell?

ted1 · 20-04-2016 11:02am

Challenge the finding, if there is only one electrical supply then that implies that there is only one dwelling.
There is only one LPT due and not two charges, so there is only one charge.

Are the water systems shared? Same again there is only one premises.
A good solicitor should be able to persuade them

Pat Mustard · 20-04-2016 11:27am

pnormal44 wrote: »

To complicate matters further, I also live at the address in a quality Wooden/Seomra unit in the back garden.

Perhaps I'm wrong here but from what you say, it sounds like the tenant is paying only a portion of the rent and expenses in respect of the house but he has the run of the whole place, while you live a garden shed. Is that right? If so, things are very comfortable for this guy.

You need to get your solicitor to take matters in hand. I agree that the whole area of Landlord & Tenant law is a minefield but you need a strategy and you need it asap.

If you want answers straight away, you will have to be prepared to pay for them but the cost of the advice should be the least of your worries.

Get your solicitor to start moving on this.

Mrs OBumble · 20-04-2016 11:36am

OP, I think you need a multi-faceted approach to this challenge.

You must act legally, of course, or you are cooking your goose re the PRTB case.

But are there are things that you can do which could make the please unpleasant ehough that the tenant changes his mind and decides to leave. I'm thinking very regular inspections, loud and smelly (paint fumes) maintenance on the empty rooms, maybe some short term house-mates (referred to elsewhere as "large friends").

Also, what about some external interest. Maybe the council could do an inspection - they might even order you to move out of your shed and into a room. Is the drug-use enough of an issue that the guards could be got interested? Is he on Welfare - are there any issues which should be reported to them? Is his car-tax and insurance up to date? Does he have a TV license? Have you got assurance that Irish Water charges are being paid?

And the neighbours - could any of them make complaints about him or his behaviour, not only to you but also to external agencies?

Is there a chance he would be aggressive towards real-estate agents who are part of the sales process. Any aggression should be reported to the guards.

Etc.

I'm sure there are other totally legal things you can think of, too. By themselves, they may not be enough. But collectively they may make him decide that a different neighbourhood would be a good idea.

Paulw · 20-04-2016 11:40am

Mod Note: Too much advice coming in here is boardering on illegal, never mind the explicitly illegal advice. OP needs to consult a solicitor for proper legal advice.

Thread Closed

Removal of Aggressive Tennant

Comments