Kilkenny GAA Thread Part 2 MOD NOTE POST 1*

Ceist_Beag · 19-04-2016 04:27PM

PáircLife wrote: »

There is just no interest in football. It doesn't compare to hurling as a spectacle. You can't force football on kids who have zero interest in it! And why would they have interest? You'd fall asleep watching it!

See that's the kind of BS I hate. As a blow in living in KK from a football county, I can tell you that kids enjoy playing football - in fact I would go so far as to say they enjoy it every bit as much as hurling. The problem is not the kids. It's the county board, clubs and parents who are the issue here. There is absolutely no good reason for football not being strong up to minor level in this county other than a complete lack of interest from the adults in facilitating it, it's as simple as that.
I would love to know how it can change but in the meantime I'll be doing my bit at a local level.

Realt Dearg Sec · 19-04-2016 05:07PM

Ceist_Beag wrote: »

See that's the kind of BS I hate. As a blow in living in KK from a football county, I can tell you that kids enjoy playing football - in fact I would go so far as to say they enjoy it every bit as much as hurling. The problem is not the kids. It's the county board, clubs and parents who are the issue here. There is absolutely no good reason for football not being strong up to minor level in this county other than a complete lack of interest from the adults in facilitating it, it's as simple as that.
I would love to know how it can change but in the meantime I'll be doing my bit at a local level.

I wasn't going to post about this football stuff again, but I kind of want to get it off my chest, now that the trolls have gone back under their rock.

First of all, good to hear you're helping out, best of luck to you with it. I think beyond the joking and what have you, most KK people would like to see us being a bit more respectable at the football. I don't see that it needs to have any effect on the quality of the hurlers we're producing. If anything, it would have a benefit in terms of fitness.

Regarding the interest, of course, you can't force parents to put their energy into a sport they don't care about. The impetus to improve has to come from elsewhere. I think it's reasonable enough to say that the county board could be doing a lot more than they are. (Again, I say this from the perspective of someone who honestly couldn't care less about football himself, but still, providing the resources and encouragement is not too hard).

But at inter-county level the CB can't seem to win with the critics. I remember up until a couple of years ago, the usual trolling that we got on internet boards was that "of course ye are good at hurling because you don't put out a football team". That is a flawed argument for various reasons that we have all rehearsed enough at this stage (the fact that other counties all have pockets of hurling in them, the fact that there's a whole heap of counties as bad at hurling as each other giving a false sense that they are putting in more effort than KK, etc etc etc). More recently this argument has morphed into a conspiracy theory, that our CB are taking huge football funding and diverting it into hurling. We had someone on here calling for an investigation, ffs.

Of course this is just a new version of the old argument, and it remains a total fact free zone. I would be happy to see the figures for football funding to KK released, and a transparent account of where it is spent. My suspicion is that we would have no case to answer. But it would be good to clear up the issue all the same. As we've seen, the funding argument is just a stalking horse for having a go at our hurling success, by and large those pedalling it have no interest, whatsoever, in football in Kilkenny. I suspect most of them have no interest in football anywhere else either. But they like to downplay the extraordinary success of our hurlers. Which is understandable, because we're absolutely class.

Often, and last week was no exception, someone will come out and say that we are disrespecting the competition fielding teams like this, and just shouldn't bother (an extension of the "it's just about getting funds" argument). But when we HAVE done that, the same trolls will be on saying that sure, of course we are successful at hurling, we don't even send out a team to get their arses handed to them every year. So you can't win.

The CB did the absolutely right thing by entering the team in the British junior championship. As sad as it is to say, that is the level which we are at, and so they entered them where they'd be competitive (and they were very competitive, but divil a word I heard from the trolls about that at the time). Meanwhile, though, the minors are still forced to go up against teams they have no business on the same field as. So maybe that's where the problem should be identified.

Meantime some proper investment of time and energy in football at underage would pay quick dividends. We aren't genetically incapable of football. But to an extent that I think is not true for any other county, the entire identity of KK as a place, as a community, is bound up in hurling. There's no point pretending that this is a conspiracy against football, it is just the way things have developed. The problems facing football in KK don't stem so much from deliberate suppression (though there's probably a fair bit of that, same as there is in pretty much every club and county in Ireland) as from neglect, because nobody's identity is bound up in the sport in that way. We can do better than a 77 point hiding, but what annoys me is the total incapacity of those criticising KK to detach that argument from the success of the hurlers. They are different things. But as I say, those people aren't actually interested in KK football, they are only interested in denigrating the hurling.

If we want a serious discussion about developing football in KK, then grand, but something tells me the trolls who were here last week won't be too involved in that debate. As it happens, of course, it's people like yourself, Ceist Beag, who will be at the centre of any such discussion. And you'll have a major uphill battle.

But yeah, the idea that KK kids are intrinsically not interested in football is not realistic. They aren't interested because nobody is interesting them in it. (And, again, disclaimer: I'm absolutely not interested in it)

Ceist_Beag · 19-04-2016 05:22PM

Realt Dearg Sec wrote: »

I don't see that it needs to have any effect on the quality of the hurlers we're producing. If anything, it would have a benefit in terms of fitness.

See this is exactly it. They don't conflict with each other, they actually compliment each other. This is why it is so frustrating to see absolutely zero interest in promoting the football at a younger age.

Realt Dearg Sec wrote: »

The CB did the absolutely right thing by entering the team in the British junior championship. As sad as it is to say, that is the level which we are at, and so they entered them where they'd be competitive (and they were very competitive, but divil a word I heard from the trolls about that at the time). Meanwhile, though, the minors are still forced to go up against teams they have no business on the same field as. So maybe that's where the problem should be identified.

Agreed on the adult team Realt but I cannot accept that a minor team cannot compete against other counties. We're talking about Wexford here - another county where hurling is strong. There is absolutely no excuse for not being able to compete with them at underage level imho. The reason is obvious that secondary schools and clubs do not bother with the sport but I don't buy the argument that they cannot put time into both football and hurling without hurting hurling. The biggest problem seems to be getting coaches and parents to actually see that.

kk1970 · 19-04-2016 05:51PM

Ceist_Beag wrote: »

See that's the kind of BS I hate. As a blow in living in KK from a football county, I can tell you that kids enjoy playing football - in fact I would go so far as to say they enjoy it every bit as much as hurling. The problem is not the kids. It's the county board, clubs and parents who are the issue here. There is absolutely no good reason for football not being strong up to minor level in this county other than a complete lack of interest from the adults in facilitating it, it's as simple as that.
I would love to know how it can change but in the meantime I'll be doing my bit at a local level.

I am a parent of a few kids and we are living in kilkenny, I don't mind saying I have zero interest in football in kilkenny. Also don't try and force me to make the kids play it I could'nt care less about football. It's hurling 1st ,2nd,3rd, bit of soccer then maybe an odd mess around playing football

Faugheen · 19-04-2016 05:58PM

Ceist_Beag wrote: »

See this is exactly it. They don't conflict with each other, they actually compliment each other. This is why it is so frustrating to see absolutely zero interest in promoting the football at a younger age.

Agreed on the adult team Realt but I cannot accept that a minor team cannot compete against other counties. We're talking about Wexford here - another county where hurling is strong. There is absolutely no excuse for not being able to compete with them at underage level imho. The reason is obvious that secondary schools and clubs do not bother with the sport but I don't buy the argument that they cannot put time into both football and hurling without hurting hurling. The biggest problem seems to be getting coaches and parents to actually see that.

Exactly this. As someone who played minor football for Kilkenny, it's a simple fact that the adults involved have little interest in facilitating football in the county past u14s.

There are numerous talented footballers in the county. If there was any interest in implementing football in Kilkenny then they'd at least be competitive in Division 4 at adult level. The team has won games in the League in the last 10 years, the fall the county has taken has been awful.

I feel bad for the 15 boys who took to that field in a complete mismatch, but it should never have been a mismatch. As the OP said, there's no reason why Kilkenny can't at least be competitive at minor level. I don't think anybody expects Kilkenny to put all their resources into football, but a time needs to come where young lads are being humiliated through no fault of their own. Why do the county board insist on entering a team? For funding?

If there's no interest in coaches/parents/county board to promote the game then they need to stop entering teams to get funding. It's not fair on those young lads who would have returned to schoolyesterday a laughing stock, and it's a disgrace that it's allowed happen.

Either make a real effort to make teams competitive or pull out the team. That's the way I look at it.

Cornerback1 · 19-04-2016 06:27PM

According to Hogan Stand, James Maher is gone for the season. Fractured kneecap.

Unlucky on the young lad.

Realt Dearg Sec · 19-04-2016 06:32PM

Faugheen wrote: »

If there's no interest in coaches/parents/county board to promote the game then they need to stop entering teams to get funding.

Again with the funding. It used to be that when we didn't field teams, people would claim we were SAVING money by not doing it, then using the savings to fund hurling. Now we are GAINING money by fielding and using the funds for hurling. So, whether they play or not, the case against them is identical. Which is it?

Ceist_Beag · 19-04-2016 08:27PM

kk1970 wrote: »

I am a parent of a few kids and we are living in kilkenny, I don't mind saying I have zero interest in football in kilkenny. Also don't try and force me to make the kids play it I could'nt care less about football. It's hurling 1st ,2nd,3rd, bit of soccer then maybe an odd mess around playing football

... which is fair enough except I really don't understand the sentiment "don't try and force me to make the kids play it". Could you not actually let your kids decide for themselves if they like it ... and if they do could you not find it in your heart to actually support them in that and encourage them if you see that they have an interest in it? I don't like ballet or swimming but if any of my kids want to have a go and show an interest I'll damn well do my best by them to encourage and support them as much as I can. This idea that "I have no interest in football so that's it as far as our house goes" is pretty sad I have to say.

bruschi · 19-04-2016 08:43PM

Realt Dearg Sec wrote: »

Again with the funding. It used to be that when we didn't field teams, people would claim we were SAVING money by not doing it, then using the savings to fund hurling. Now we are GAINING money by fielding and using the funds for hurling. So, whether they play or not, the case against them is identical. Which is it?

I would have been one of the ones who spoke about the funding aspect previously. whether or not you believe it is out of jealousy as you mentioned earlier is your own opinion. To be honest, I couldnt give a crap if Kilkenny play football or not, it's absolutely their own decision. But they have done, and continue to enter teams into development squad tournaments at U14/15/16 for football but yet do not fully participate. By this, in some cases they will play in the first organised blitz and after that they may not participate again for the rest of the year in any of the other arranged ones. I saw Kilkenny play in an U14 blitz 3 years ago and ran a Wexford B team close and I think may have beaten Wicklow, I dont quite remember. But they werent bad. But they didnt play again that year.

Now you may say so what, they enter a team and thats that. But if you take that the average cost for attending a blitz is €2k (between bus, food and any other expenses), by not entering 2 or 3 blitzes at 3 age groups means they can save on that expense.

However, the Leinster grant money goes through on application, not on participation. So if Kilkenny fill the forms that they are entering a team, that's it, the money goes through. I have been at other blitzes where Kilkenny were to be involved but never showed up.

So, what money do they get. I dont know. I dont have their accounts. What I do know is that Wexford got €85k in recent years for Games Development, which is effectively the Development squad grant. That is to cover all age groups in both codes. I'd be surprised if that is not a standard across the board figure for all counties in Leinster. Wexford mainly spent more than that for their squads (4 age groups at hurling, 3 at football, taking an average of 4 blitzes each is approx €60k, plus other trips, gear, food, training venues etc). You take away the 3 football age groups, and there is a considerable amount of additional money that can be diverted to hurling.

Now I dont know either what the split is from Leinster if they have one for only picking one code over the other. Maybe they do, maybe they dont.

However, my main issue is that Kilkenny do get funding for football, but they do not spend it on the development of that. And its not that it is helping hurling, they would be good regardless of the income or not, but they have money there to spend on football and help the very small minority who actually might want to play it, but they do not give them that support that they could if they really wanted.

I know plenty of lads who played football for Kilkenny. I played with some of them and they were as good a footballer as youd find. 9 of that squad Saturday are in Good Counsel and play in there. Some of them have Leinster an all Ireland medals for football. There is quality there enough that what happened Saturday should not have occurred.

If Kilkenny arent bothered with football at underage, then forget about it. Sending lambs out for the slaughter to tick boxes in HQ in Portlaoise so the cheques are issued is not fair on those lads getting destroyed.

JJs Left Hand · 19-04-2016 08:58PM

Couple of things on the football argument:

At extreme youth level, I'm talking ages 6-12, training in football is a great tool for improving hand-eye co-ordination, positional sense and movement skills. I coach my kids in football exclusively from about October - February. Most kids only do it to keep active. A lot don't bother showing up. There are schools competitions however there is no Go Games model for football like there is in hurling. We are asked to play 10 minutes of football after each hurling game during the summer. This is mandatory but most of the time it doesn't happen. When they play football they generally enjoy it however once the hurls come out it all changes and its all they want to do.
It's a culture thing. As said above Kilkenny and hurling are intrinsically linked. Kids are surrounded by hurling so its a self fulfilling prophecy that will constantly get re-inforced.

To the people saying that we should be at least competitive at minor grade. This is bull****. With the advancements in training methods and near professionalism even at minor level you'd need to have a panel of 30 kids aged 13 now and build them for 5 years to make them competitive. The idea that you can just do it within a year or 2 is wrong. We could've taken those same footballers and trained them like dogs for the last 3 months and they might only have lost by 60 points. Hurling and football training methods are really not that similar. Football is like long distance running to hurling being about sprinting. It's a completely different kind of fitness and a completely different kind of strength needed. It's naive to think you can marry the 2.

As a coach, in an ideal world I'd be able to coach my team in both codes simultaneously. That's just unrealistic however. If I want these lads to be competitive even at Go Games level I have to dedicate any time I have to improving their hurling skills. If I start splitting time between codes they'll get blown out of the water in the hurling and it'll destroy their confidence.

Michael Kavanagh · 19-04-2016 11:08PM

Ceist_Beag wrote: »

See this is exactly it. They don't conflict with each other, they actually compliment each other. This is why it is so frustrating to see absolutely zero interest in promoting the football at a younger age.

Agreed on the adult team Realt but I cannot accept that a minor team cannot compete against other counties. We're talking about Wexford here - another county where hurling is strong. There is absolutely no excuse for not being able to compete with them at underage level imho. The reason is obvious that secondary schools and clubs do not bother with the sport but I don't buy the argument that they cannot put time into both football and hurling without hurting hurling. The biggest problem seems to be getting coaches and parents to actually see that.

Wexford wouldn't like to hear you say that they have there own issues with the two codes down there, I don't know where you would start as a sport I think it is very slow it would put you to sleep.

Michael Kavanagh · 19-04-2016 11:16PM

Cornerback1 wrote: »

According to Hogan Stand, James Maher is gone for the season. Fractured kneecap.

Unlucky on the young lad.

He must have been more serious than they thought because I was talking to somebody from Freshford last Saturday they were saying it would be two months .

Hawkeye6 · 21-04-2016 09:24PM

Leinster Minor Football Championship Results 2016

28/02/2016 Kilkenny 6-9 Longford 1-1
06/02/2016 Kilkenny 4-5 Louth 2-7
See leinsterladiesgaelic.ie

Yes, It is ladies Football, but the same comparison can be drawn with ladies football and camogie in Kilkenny. Camogie has a huge precedence. However, the point is... you can be competitive in both.

The blame lies with the clubs. Look at the number of walk overs clubs are giving in the championships/leagues on the Kilkenny GAA website. County board sets up plenty of fixtures but clubs are refusing to play "ball". How many clubs are promoting football? Maybe their funding or All-Ireland ticket supply should be cut. I heard of one club who recently trained hurling for the hour immediately before the throw in of a football championship game.!!

adrian522 · 21-04-2016 09:37PM

The solution shouldn't always be to cut funding. What will that achieve? At club level or at county level?

Seems like more of a punishment to me than any sort of solution. I mean you cut the funding, what happens then, does this help football? Does it harm hurling? What is the objective of people who arguing for funding to be cut. All it would mean is no football teams would be entered into competitions.

bruschi · 21-04-2016 09:44PM

adrian522 wrote: »

The solution shouldn't always be to cut funding. What will that achieve? At club level or at county level?

Seems like more of a punishment to me than any sort of solution. I mean you cut the funding, what happens then, does this help football? Does it harm hurling? What is the objective of people who arguing for funding to be cut. All it would mean is no football teams would be entered into competitions.

I dont particularly want to keep this going,as I'm not from Kilkenny so dont really want to be going on and on in your thread. But I'd agree. I dont agree with cutting funding. But if they arent going to enter the football teams properly and use that funding for that, then dont bother with it. It might be better in the long run, the devotion given to football is absolute minimal anyway, so just cut it off. however, if they do want to keep it going, and keep the funding coming for it, then they should be making a better effort with it. I think Leinster council need to step in, if they and Kilkenny want, and appoint a football development officer and try promote the game and spend the funding wisely on improving it in the county.

The big thing there though is if they want to. I dont really see anything that says anyone in KK co board or in the majority of the county actually want it. And there are plenty of counties playing football. Its the less than half hearted effort and putting teams out for the sake of fulfilling requirements is what would annoy me most.

citykat · 22-04-2016 12:37AM

Busy weekend ahead. Minors are out in their first game of the season. Thought the team would've been announced by now. Clubs also kick off their campaigns. Personally only interested in how the IC absentees are fixed.

citykat · 22-04-2016 12:41AM

Is it too late to get this thread renamed the Kilkenny Hurling thread? If yes, whoever starts the next thread please note.

Michael Kavanagh · 22-04-2016 09:18AM

citykat wrote: »

Busy weekend ahead. Minors are out in their first game of the season. Thought the team would've been announced by now. Clubs also kick off their campaigns. Personally only interested in how the IC absentees are fixed.

How do you think results will go this weekend a lot of clubs are down players.It is suprising that the minor team is not picked yet.

droppingball · 22-04-2016 09:34AM

Senior

Mullinavat V Danesfort, Mullinavat by 1 with Paul Murphy out
Clara V Ballyhale, Clara by 3, Shamrocks could be without a few but could be a corker
Comer v O Loughlins, O Loughlins by 2
Village v BBridge Bridge by 6 Village missing a few and were poor last year whilst BBridge will be full of confidence
Fenians v Rower Rower by 3 tight to call with Joyce possibly out
St Martins v Dicksboro Dicksboro by 1

Intermediate

Tullogher v St Lactains, ST Lactains by 4
Lisdowney v Carrickshock, Cshock by 5 Should have the know how
Thomastown v Dunamaggin, Ttown by 2
Graigballycallan v Glenmore Draw Glenmore should be brimming with confidence but GBC won't lie down easy
Tullaroan v Gowran Tullaroan by 1
Conahy v St Patricks St Patricks by 5, should be skin and hair flying in this one.

Tough on the minors as many of them will end up playing twice, a lot of them would be starting for the intermediate teams anyway. Hopefully they can get off to a good start, it will be interesting to see the line up, up to a few weeks ago I heard the competition for places on the team is more intense than in other years so hopefully this will also serve them well.

brookville · 22-04-2016 12:00PM

Heard rob lennon done his cruiciate any truth in this?

droppingball · 22-04-2016 01:43PM

Bad news if true, the panel is getting stretched to say the least, any word on joyce?

tbiggertycome · 22-04-2016 05:02PM

Haven't heard anything about Lennon or Joyce but was talking to one of the management during the week and he said both Fennellys and Fogarty would have started if we were playing a Championship match last weekend. He also gave the impression that the beating might be the best thing for a few of the lads on the panel as they were beginning to think they just had to turn up! That is me reading between the lines so take that with a healthy pinch of salt. I also heard that Kilkenny hadn't prepared in the usual way before the game. I know it sounds a bit nuts but I'm nearly wondering did they send them out undercooked to let them see how good/bad they really are unless their completely focused. It's just me creating my own conspiracy theory here. It's counter to everything we know about Cody but it could just be how it went down but probably not. Either way the management team member I met gave the impression that a good few of them had a huge job to do to keep there place and for some I suspect he mean't keeping their place on the panel. I would not be surprised if a 2-3 lads or more were cut in the next few weeks. They have the next 3 weeks together then 2 back with the clubs and then 3 more back with the county before the Leinster semi.

I heard from a different but very good source that the lads had strips tore off them for ages on Sunday night when they got back (as well you might expect). I wouldn't like to be going back into county training next week having been identified as being one of the lads not working hard enough.

Larkin is back from the family hols a few days ago so I would expect him to line out for the Village on Sunday.

Our bad injuries that we definitely know of are
Paul Murphy- Shoulder AC joint- hopefully back for the championship
James Maher- fractured kneecap- gone for the season
Ger Aylward- cruciate- gone for the season
Light injuries
Michael Fennelly- hamstring- would expect to hurl for the club this weekend
Colin Fennelly- hamstring- would expect to hurl for the club this weekend
Jackie Tyrrell- hamstring- might hurl for the club this weekend didn't look to bad
Robbie Lennon- hamstring- probably gone for another few weeks to a month as he keeps rushing back and doing it again
Conor Fogarty- heavy bruising, shin- would expect to hurl for the club this weekend
Richie Hogan- hamstring- I don't know if this is still at him but he's form has been well off what we expect from Richie at this time of the year i expect him to play for the club
Kieran Joyce- unknown leg complaint- no idea

brookville · 22-04-2016 08:02PM

http://m.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-games/hurling/heavy-loss-leaves-codys-kilkenny-at-familiar-crossroads-34639352.html

barneygumble99 · 22-04-2016 08:55PM

Six St Kieran's Croke Cup winners named in Kilkenny team for Offaly minor clash
http://the42.ie/2730823

dirkmeister · 22-04-2016 09:34PM

brookville wrote: »

http://m.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-games/hurling/heavy-loss-leaves-codys-kilkenny-at-familiar-crossroads-34639352.html

Fair play to Clare and Waterford for reinventing the game.

Speak Now · 22-04-2016 10:02PM

dirkmeister wrote: »

Fair play to Clare and Waterford for reinventing the game.

Did you read the article? Tongue firmly in cheek.

dastardly00 · 22-04-2016 10:14PM

dirkmeister wrote: »

Fair play to Clare and Waterford for reinventing the game.

Huh??

brookville · 22-04-2016 10:58PM

barneygumble99 wrote: »

Six St Kieran's Croke Cup winners named in Kilkenny team for Offaly minor clash
http://the42.ie/2730823

Is adrian mullen injured?

dirkmeister · 22-04-2016 11:52PM

Speak Now wrote: »

Did you read the article? Tongue firmly in cheek.

Yes,response was firmly tongue in cheek.

mountgomery burns · 23-04-2016 09:45AM

Wouldn't say there's much wrong with a forward line that scored 2-19 to be honest. Richie Hogan didn't get much rope, but John Power getting a lot of stick. Would not cast aside anyone who scored 1-1 in all ireland final. His brother had quiet games too at the same age. God knows Walter Walsh has had plenty of quiet games since the 2012 all ireland final.

As for lads being dropped off the panel, well the wing back was in there as a stop gap on account of injuries so he was thrown in to the deep end. Eoin Murphy was yer worst player, not a hope hell even be dropped from the starting team. Can't see any of that team that started being dropped from the panel.

Kilkenny GAA Thread Part 2 **MOD NOTE POST 1***

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Kilkenny GAA Thread Part 2 MOD NOTE POST 1*