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Metro South proposed in Dublin transport plan

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13

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    #62
    Carawaystick
    Registered Users Posts: 8,779 ✭✭✭Carawaystick


    mhge wrote: »
    We do, the leap card.

    How do you get money onto the leap card if you've no bank account? and live in the sticks? You can't get a bus to a shop like.


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    #63
    strandroad
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,676 ✭✭✭strandroad


    Carawaystick wrote: »
    How do you get money onto the leap card if you've no bank account? and live in the sticks? You can't get a bus to a shop like.

    Online or by text, we're nearly there. Also the point of the deposit on your card is to get you out of the sticks. And if none of these options works for you, not even one, perhaps you should still be able to pay the driver, but at punitive rates like double or triple the fare. You'll learn very quickly to make sure you have credit, just like people do with phones all the time and have for a long time.


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    #64
    LXFlyer
    Registered Users Posts: 17,579 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    mhge wrote: »
    Online or by text, we're nearly there. Also the point of the deposit on your card is to get you out of the sticks. And if none of these options works for you, not even one, perhaps you should still be able to pay the driver, but at punitive rates like double or triple the fare. You'll learn very quickly to make sure you have credit, just like people do with phones all the time and have for a long time.

    As I said above doing something like this should involve bringing people with you and making it as user friendly as it can be, rather than beating people with a stick.


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    #65
    strandroad
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,676 ✭✭✭strandroad


    lxflyer wrote: »
    It's not enough to go cashless - forcing everyone to get a LEAP card isn't the solution. The contactless payment option needs to be live as well.

    Why? Ticket card solutions were popular long before contactless cards even existed. If you can't get someone to get a leap card, you can't make them get a contactless card either. It's actually much easier to get the former than the latter if you have none.


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    #66
    strandroad
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,676 ✭✭✭strandroad


    lxflyer wrote: »
    As I said above doing something like this should involve bringing people with you and making it as user friendly as it can be, rather than beating people with a stick.

    Did people have to be beaten with a stick to accept how to handle mobile credit?
    People are crying out for better and faster public transport but all we hear is excuses.


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    #67
    LXFlyer
    Registered Users Posts: 17,579 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    mhge wrote: »
    Did people have to be beaten with a stick to accept how to handle mobile credit?
    People are crying out for better and faster public transport but all we hear is excuses.

    Well respectfully I think bus fares and mobile credit are two different things.

    Lack of funds on a LEAP card could leave someone with no way of getting home if somewhere to top it up were not to hand.

    Making it as easy as possible for people to use has to be the key and I do believe using contactless payment cards is an essential element.


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    #68
    strandroad
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,676 ✭✭✭strandroad


    lxflyer wrote: »
    Well respectfully I think bus fares and mobile credit are two different things.

    Lack of funds on a LEAP card could leave someone with no way of getting home if somewhere to top it up were not to hand.

    Making it as easy as possible for people to use has to be the key and I do believe using contactless payment cards is an essential element.

    Integrated transport payments and mobile credit are not at all different in 2016, in fact we should be offering the option to pay by swiping your mobile and not defending lining up to the metal fare box with buses clogging the city as a result.

    In what I outlined for someone to be stranded with a leap card they would need to have no credit, no deposit on the card, no phone or internet access and no cash to pay the punitive rate. Which sounds like a mugging victim more than anything else and they would have no contactless card on them anyway.

    Why is everything so difficult and impossible? Lxflyer you are clearly clued in, why is efficiency or speed such a dirty word in Dublin transport? It's a small system which should make it easy to turn around with some joined up thinking but it just seems to take pride in staying antiquated.


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    #69
    Dyr
    Registered Users Posts: 23,246 ✭✭✭✭Dyr


    mhge wrote: »
    Why is everything so difficult and impossible? Lxflyer you are clearly clued in, why is efficiency or speed such a dirty word in Dublin transport? It's a small system which should make it easy to turn around with some joined up thinking but it just seems to take pride in staying antiquated.

    two words:
    Dublin bus

    two more words:
    vested interest


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    #70
    LXFlyer
    Registered Users Posts: 17,579 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    mhge wrote: »
    Integrated transport payments and mobile credit are not at all different in 2016, in fact we should be offering the option to pay by swiping your mobile and not defending lining up to the metal fare box with buses clogging the city as a result.

    In what I outlined for someone to be stranded with a leap card they would need to have no credit, no deposit on the card, no phone or internet access and no cash to pay the punitive rate. Which sounds like a mugging victim more than anything else and they would have no contactless card on them anyway.

    Why is everything so difficult and impossible? Lxflyer you are clearly clued in, why is efficiency or speed such a dirty word in Dublin transport? It's a small system which should make it easy to turn around with some joined up thinking but it just seems to take pride in staying antiquated.

    Contrary to what the previous poster believes, most of the issues boil down to funding or the lack of it.

    To fundamentally improve the bus service in this city requires:
    - An increase in public funding and a change in the funding model to allow for simplification of the fare structure
    - New more powerful ticket machines (these are planned but require NTA funding)
    - An audit of every bus stop in the city for suitability of dual-door operation and necessary remedial action taken
    - Enforcement of bus lanes and parking around bus stops
    - Increased bus priority measures

    The NTA are currently looking at the possibility of using mobiles and contactless cards for payment.

    While I'd love to see this all happen immediately, I'm a realist. The funding simply isn't there to do all of this overnight, and as a result what's happening is a slow process.


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    #71
    Markcheese
    Registered Users Posts: 8,431 ✭✭✭Markcheese


    mhge wrote:
    Why? Ticket card solutions were popular long before contactless cards even existed. If you can't get someone to get a leap card, you can't make them get a contactless card either. It's actually much easier to get the former than the latter if you have none.

    Used to use the magnetic strip cards in sydney 20 years ago , and they werent new then.. basic tickets were available from newsagent and machines gave basic, daily and weekly tickets, two validators at front of the bus , exit from the middle .. oh and buses always had right of way ,so if you crashed into a bus pulling out of a bus stop its your fault...

    Slava ukraini 🇺🇦



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    #72
    Sam Russell
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,421 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    Markcheese wrote: »
    .. .. oh and buses always had right of way ,so if you crashed into a bus pulling out of a bus stop its your fault...

    That would be a zero cost option for speeding up the buses.

    Reminds me of the sign you would see on the back of cars 'Waning - No hand signals - Ex Bus Driver'.


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    #73
    strandroad
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,676 ✭✭✭strandroad


    Markcheese wrote: »
    Used to use the magnetic strip cards in sydney 20 years ago , and they werent new then.. basic tickets were available from newsagent and machines gave basic, daily and weekly tickets, two validators at front of the bus , exit from the middle .. oh and buses always had right of way ,so if you crashed into a bus pulling out of a bus stop its your fault...

    Yeah I know... It really is not hard. People are able to plan ahead enough to make sure they have their wallet/phone/prescription on them, they would be able to handle their tickets too. Where there is a will, there is a way.


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    #74
    LXFlyer
    Registered Users Posts: 17,579 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    They had mag stripe 10 journey tickets in Dublin too but the abuse of them was unbelievable.


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    #75
    anothernight
    Registered Users Posts: 2,541 ✭✭✭anothernight


    lxflyer wrote: »
    They had mag stripe 10 journey tickets in Dublin too but the abuse of them was unbelievable.

    How were they abused?


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    #76
    Carawaystick
    Registered Users Posts: 8,779 ✭✭✭Carawaystick


    mhge wrote: »
    Integrated transport payments and mobile credit are not at all different in 2016, in fact we should be offering the option to pay by swiping your mobile and not defending lining up to the metal fare box with buses clogging the city as a result.

    But it's slower to pay certain fares by leap than by cash as it is. I can't see how allowing a phone to pay will be faster...


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    #77
    LXFlyer
    Registered Users Posts: 17,579 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    anothernight wrote: »
    How were they abused?

    People not validating them or using incorrect fares - it was rife.


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    #78
    loyatemu
    Registered Users Posts: 14,808 ✭✭✭✭loyatemu


    Carawaystick wrote: »
    But it's slower to pay certain fares by leap than by cash as it is. I can't see how allowing a phone to pay will be faster...

    there's your problem right there. there shouldn't be "certain fares" - it should be flat fare or tag on/off


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    #79
    anothernight
    Registered Users Posts: 2,541 ✭✭✭anothernight


    lxflyer wrote: »
    People not validating them or using incorrect fares - it was rife.

    Weren't they watched by the driver as they validated them?
    Using incorrect fares will be a problem with any pricing structure that doesn't use flat fares but also doesn't have a tag on and off system. I've paid the wrong fare in Dublin by accident before, not remembering that I was going somewhere else!


    Just for comparison:

    The system we had in Madrid involved validating the ticket in front of the driver (the machine was placed right next to the driver). It was his job to watch you putting the ticket in. Flat fare, so you couldn't pay an incorrect fare. The machine beeped once if the ticket was valid, and emitted a series of short beeps if the ticket had already been used up or was otherwise not suitable. Single and 10 trip tickets were stamped by the machine with the date and time, so inspectors could easily check that you validated it when you got on the bus. The stamp was also useful in that you could count how many there were, and that's how you knew how many journeys were left on the ticket.


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    #80
    Stephen15
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,907 ✭✭✭Stephen15


    What about having tickets you buy in shop and validate on the the bus. A complaint I have about irish rail is the ticket barriers the stations why can't get rid of them at the exits instead of having to hold on to them and put them through the barriers again.


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    #81
    LXFlyer
    Registered Users Posts: 17,579 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    Carawaystick wrote: »
    But it's slower to pay certain fares by leap than by cash as it is. I can't see how allowing a phone to pay will be faster...

    That's down to the memory power of the ticket machines. They are all due to be upgraded subject to funding from the NTA.


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    #82
    strandroad
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,676 ✭✭✭strandroad


    Carawaystick wrote: »
    But it's slower to pay certain fares by leap than by cash as it is. I can't see how allowing a phone to pay will be faster...

    I suppose I'm making a wildly optimistic assumption that one day driver machines won't be as slow as they are now (if that's what you mean).

    Dreaming on, with single fare in place everybody swipes themselves through anyway (phone, leap or card), and they have more validators to use. Multi door operation sees the bus departing in seconds not minutes. City clogging vastly reduced, journey times slashed. Just like in the eighties elsewhere!


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    #83
    LXFlyer
    Registered Users Posts: 17,579 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    anothernight wrote: »
    Weren't they watched by the driver as they validated them?
    Using incorrect fares will be a problem with any pricing structure that doesn't use flat fares but also doesn't have a tag on and off system. I've paid the wrong fare in Dublin by accident before, not remembering that I was going somewhere else!


    Just for comparison:

    The system we had in Madrid involved validating the ticket in front of the driver (the machine was placed right next to the driver). It was his job to watch you putting the ticket in. Flat fare, so you couldn't pay an incorrect fare. The machine beeped once if the ticket was valid, and emitted a series of short beeps if the ticket had already been used up or was otherwise not suitable. Single and 10 trip tickets were stamped by the machine with the date and time, so inspectors could easily check that you validated it when you got on the bus. The stamp was also useful in that you could count how many there were, and that's how you knew how many journeys were left on the ticket.

    Checking people's tickets is not the driver's job in Dublin. Even with the RPU out and about there was more abuse than you would expect.

    Given that they were using the remote validator it was more difficult - the drivers can't check everyone validating via the remote validator while issuing tickets as well.


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    #84
    anothernight
    Registered Users Posts: 2,541 ✭✭✭anothernight


    lxflyer wrote: »
    Checking people's tickets is not the driver's job in Dublin. Even with the RPU out and about there was more abuse than you would expect.

    Given that they were using the remote validator it was more difficult - the drivers can't check everyone validating via the remote validator while issuing tickets as well.


    Fair enough.
    I would consider that a badly planned system if there was that much abuse for something so simple to implement.


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    #85
    LXFlyer
    Registered Users Posts: 17,579 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    anothernight wrote: »
    Fair enough.
    I would consider that a badly planned system if there was that much abuse for something so simple to implement.

    Well if our politicians were prepared to fund public transport properly then maybe we could have a decent system.

    But they are not.


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    #86
    strandroad
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,676 ✭✭✭strandroad


    anothernight wrote: »

    The system we had in Madrid involved validating the ticket in front of the driver (the machine was placed right next to the driver). It was his job to watch you putting the ticket in. Flat fare, so you couldn't pay an incorrect fare. The machine beeped once if the ticket was valid, and emitted a series of short beeps if the ticket had already been used up or was otherwise not suitable. Single and 10 trip tickets were stamped by the machine with the date and time, so inspectors could easily check that you validated it when you got on the bus. The stamp was also useful in that you could count how many there were, and that's how you knew how many journeys were left on the ticket.

    Apparently it's not a driver's job to enforce correct fares (same with fake social passes). Even though the whole "driver as a point of entry" system is justified as preventing fare evasion.


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    #87
    LeinsterDub
    Registered Users Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭LeinsterDub


    Isn't this thread meant to be about MS?


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    #88
    strandroad
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,676 ✭✭✭strandroad


    LeinsterDub wrote: »
    Isn't this thread meant to be about MS?

    I suppose it's just a sign that no one believes it will ever materialise...


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    #89
    anothernight
    Registered Users Posts: 2,541 ✭✭✭anothernight


    lxflyer wrote: »
    Well if our politicians were prepared to fund public transport properly then maybe we could have a decent system.

    But they are not.

    I think a lot of it is down to bad implementation, before we go into funding issues. I don't know if the situation has changed now, but my memory of Dublin Bus is one where customers were choosing to drive rather than to use the bus, because the service was leaving a lot to be desired. I remember that one of the fare increases was justified by saying that there was a decrease in number of bus users!

    I see the website has a fare calculator and I know the stops are now shown in the bus itself, but for many years those two simple things weren't used at all. When I lived in Ireland, the "real time" information was as useful as if it wasn't there to begin with. It took more than €50 million to design and implement the Leap card, yet they didn't think to design it without requiring driver interaction for many fares. That was just shortsighted.

    Hell, even the bus stop names are, in some places, completely irrelevant names instead of the names of landmarks that people would recognise.


    I agree that there isn't enough funding going towards transport in Ireland, but there's also not enough thinking, and a lot of resistance to change. It's like the HSE, throwing more money at it won't help if you don't want to think progressively.


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    #90
    LeinsterDub
    Registered Users Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭LeinsterDub


    strassenwo!f wrote: »
    .

    The current transport outfit (apparently called the NTA) produces a plan for the next number of years, nobody believes it, and if you look at the form they're quite right not to.

    Meant to be called the DTA until it was decided it would be a cold, cold day in hell when the jackeens have their own transport authority


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    #91
    strandroad
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,676 ✭✭✭strandroad


    lxflyer wrote: »
    Well if our politicians were prepared to fund public transport properly then maybe we could have a decent system.

    But they are not.

    How can we blame the customer friendly practice of forcing busloads of passengers to sit and wait for drivers in Donnybrook etc. on politicians?
    Or having nothing but a yellow pole with a number on top as a bus stop? Great for tourists or visitors when you don't even know route numbers, not to mention any timetables...


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