Leinster Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread VII: The Fan-base Awakens

irishbucsfan · 06-04-2016 03:24PM

leinstertalk wrote: »

Dave Kearney isn't first choice when everyone is healthy and he is hardly a top class wing. Good player as he is.

Define extremely talented at schools level? wouldn't the vast majority of players who join the academy not fit into that definition?

Well I would say Dave Kearney was a level above most but it's extremely difficult to tell across years, and also amplified at 10.

Dave Kearney will be first choice when everyone is healthy, including himself, absolutely.

leinstertalk · 06-04-2016 03:27PM

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Well I would say Dave Kearney was a level above most but it's extremely difficult to tell across years, and also amplified at 10.

Dave Kearney will be first choice when everyone is healthy, including himself, absolutely.

ahead of who? Nacewa?

Buer · 06-04-2016 03:27PM

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Well Dave Kearney obviously qualifies there. And also he was clearly improved in the academy coming in as an out half with a broken leg and leaving as a back 3 player and then going on to start in a world cup.

I've seen this posted before on here. Was DK an outhalf at underage level? I only ever saw him at full back there and he played there for Clongowes too, I believe?

irishbucsfan · 06-04-2016 03:28PM

Buer wrote: »

I've seen this posted before on here. Was DK an outhalf at underage level? I only ever saw him at full back there and he played there for Clongowes too, I believe?

I certainly saw him playing 10 for Clongowes in league games, and also saw him play 10 at club level once (I think it was Lansdowne his first year out of school?).

leinstertalk · 06-04-2016 03:33PM

He never played 10 for Leinster underage anyway, was fullback all the time.

Stainalert · 06-04-2016 04:34PM

irishbucsfan wrote: »

I certainly saw him playing 10 for Clongowes in league games, and also saw him play 10 at club level once (I think it was Lansdowne his first year out of school?).

Was never a 10 at club level - played most of his 1st year out on the seniors in Lansdowne at wing. If he played 10 at 20's level it was to fill an injury

BoardsMember · 06-04-2016 05:45PM

leinstertalk wrote: »

But Leinster aren't producing enough players as it is.. they should increase the academy.. get those players the increased coaching and support and let them play regularly in the AIL with the best performers playing in the A team.

Look at this year u20's as an example, apart from James Ryan there is a lot of similarly talented players in the backline and pack.. it's pretty hard right now to predict which of those will be better than the other so Leinster should take in around 10-12 players and see how they develop.. if the academy can manage to develop them..

There is an argument that Leinster should only take elite talents at positions they are strong in(LH Prop and Backrow) but nearly every other position leinster could do with talent being developed and coming through, especially in the backline.

Surely they produce lots of players...the argument is whether they are good enough.

You're talking about increasing the numbers significantly, with an increase in staffing in all levels of expertise? Who pays for all of this? What is the return/benefit? The business model should surely be to take in as many as you need to keep replenishing from within, with the odd NIQ thrown in. You ideally uncover some international/world class players as part of it. You achieve the best input by selecting the players you think will prosper, presumably based on some informed factors: speed/size/skill/game management etc. But you have to draw the line somewhere, it can't be a bottomless pit, there has to be some cap on the number of players.

CIARAN_BOYLE · 06-04-2016 05:58PM

The Leinster academy is a production line for professionals.

It is not however a production line for internationals. Adding 10 people that are slightly less capable than the 8 a year that make up the current academy is not likely to solve that.

CMOTDibbler · 06-04-2016 06:33PM

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

The Leinster academy is a production line for professionals.

It is not however a production line for internationals. Adding 10 people that are slightly less capable than the 8 a year that make up the current academy is not likely to solve that.

I don't think anyone is suggesting that. Most of the discussion is in the context of squad players for the senior team. Getting internationals is a bonus.

Specifically at wing. Currently the senior squad has the following wingers:
Darragh Fanning: About to retire
Fergus McFadden (29)
Luke FitzGerald (28)
Dave Kearney (26)
Mick McGrath (25)
Isa Nacewa (NIQ)
Zane Kirchener (NIQ)

I'm noting the NIQ players not because they are ineligible for international duty but because they clearly didn't come through the academy or Leinster under age. So that's four wingers since FitzGerald who came in roughly ten years ago. Darragh Fanning came straight in from AIL.

stephen_n · 06-04-2016 06:50PM

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

I don't think anyone is suggesting that. Most of the discussion is in the context of squad players for the senior team. Getting internationals is a bonus.

Specifically at wing. Currently the senior squad has the following wingers:
Darragh Fanning: About to retire
Fergus McFadden (29)
Luke FitzGerald (28)
Dave Kearney (26)
Mick McGrath (25)
Isa Nacewa (NIQ)
Zane Kirchener (NIQ)

I'm noting the NIQ players not because they are ineligible for international duty but because they clearly didn't come through the academy or Leinster under age. So that's four wingers since FitzGerald who came in roughly ten years ago. Darragh Fanning came straight in from AIL.

We have Adam Byrne coming through and we lost Conway because he couldn't get enough game time. Increasing the amount of players in our Academy would certainly benefit other clubs, when they move on to get game time.

CIARAN_BOYLE · 06-04-2016 06:55PM

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

I don't think anyone is suggesting that. Most of the discussion is in the context of squad players for the senior team. Getting internationals is a bonus.

Specifically at wing. Currently the senior squad has the following wingers:
Darragh Fanning: About to retire
Fergus McFadden (29)
Luke FitzGerald (28)
Dave Kearney (26)
Mick McGrath (25)
Isa Nacewa (NIQ)
Zane Kirchener (NIQ)

I'm noting the NIQ players not because they are ineligible for international duty but because they clearly didn't come through the academy or Leinster under age. So that's four wingers since FitzGerald who came in roughly ten years ago. Darragh Fanning came straight in from AIL.

How many Leinster produced wingers have come through since then and are plying their trade in other provinces or abroad. So to put it another way here is 6 professional wingers produced in the last 10 years not in Leinster.

Conway
Morris
Keating
Hudson
Coughlan Murray
Monaghan

With the exception of McGrath, Carr and Fanning every winger produced and retained or signed from outside by Leinster since Fitzgerald is an international.

While Leinster could do with a bigger academy you need to solve another problem first, find them meaningful matches of a quality above the AIL that offer the potential to generate some income or come close to break even.

CMOTDibbler · 06-04-2016 08:10PM

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

How many Leinster produced wingers have come through since then and are plying their trade in other provinces or abroad. So to put it another way here is 6 professional wingers produced in the last 10 years not in Leinster.

Conway
Morris
Keating
Hudson
Coughlan Murray
Monaghan

With the exception of McGrath, Carr and Fanning every winger produced and retained or signed from outside by Leinster since Fitzgerald is an international.

While Leinster could do with a bigger academy you need to solve another problem first, find them meaningful matches of a quality above the AIL that offer the potential to generate some income or come close to break even.

We lost a good few of those players during MOC's tenure. That's probably the worst legacy of his time at the helm.

I'm not sure that the AIL isn't capable of providing meaningful matches. My solution would be to have academy teams compete there and this would provide both a useful outlet for the players but also a higher profile for the AIL itself. There a disconnect between the AIL and the provinces and this would help bridge that. It would also give academy coaches a closer look at the AIL and the players in other clubs which would in turn hopefully lead to more crossover betwwen the AIL and the academies/senior provincial squads.

Initially it wouldn't be able to wash its face, but over time it should generate a bit more interest. Interpros in Donnybrook and other provinicial centres between the provincial academies could be quite a draw.

dubal · 06-04-2016 08:14PM

leinstertalk wrote: »

I can see that hope when he entered the academy, but now..
Leinster rugby seem incapable of producing a Matthew Morgan type.. Billy Dardis was my biggest hope for that type of player but doesn't look to be working out.

The younger Dardis looks bigger and better already so there is hope...

salmocab · 06-04-2016 08:16PM

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

I'm not sure that the AIL isn't capable of providing meaningful matches. My solution would be to have academy teams compete there and this would provide both a useful outlet for the players but also a higher profile for the AIL itself. There a disconnect between the AIL and the provinces and this would help bridge that. It would also give academy coaches a closer look at the AIL and the players in other clubs which would in turn hopefully lead to more crossover betwwen the AIL and the academies/senior provincial squads.

As oppose to bridging the gap I would imagine that AIL clubs would take exception to having what would basically be 4 full time pro teams with the cream of young Irish talent thrust into their league. It would mean weakening the current AIL teams and creating stronger teams for them to play against. I do think the A team need more games but the AIL is not the answer.

irishbucsfan · 06-04-2016 08:17PM

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

We lost a good few of those players during MOC's tenure. That's probably the worst legacy of his time at the helm.

We lost one or two of them during his time?

Conway/Morris/Keating/Hudson left during Schmidts time I think?

CMOTDibbler · 06-04-2016 08:23PM

irishbucsfan wrote: »

We lost one or two of them during his time?

Conway/Morris/Keating/Hudson left during Schmidts time I think?

Conway left at the end of Schmidt's tenure in 2013. Darren Hudson left in 2014. The other two left after their first year under Schmidt.

CMOTDibbler · 06-04-2016 08:30PM

salmocab wrote: »

As oppose to bridging the gap I would imagine that AIL clubs would take exception to having what would basically be 4 full time pro teams with the cream of young Irish talent thrust into their league. It would mean weakening the current AIL teams and creating stronger teams for them to play against. I do think the A team need more games but the AIL is not the answer.

There'd be an element of that. However the lack of experience would temper that somewhat if not completely. There's also the regular appearances for their clubs by provincial players that would also offset that.

I wouldn't be convinced that all academy teams would by right end up in division 1A for starters. I suspect it would be 50/50 between 1A and 1B.

irishbucsfan · 06-04-2016 08:30PM

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

Conway left at the end of Schmidt's tenure in 2013. Darren Hudson left in 2014. The other two left after their first year under Schmidt.

Ah yeah, so just Coghlan-Murray and Hudson.

Andy Boyle is another I suppose.

CIARAN_BOYLE · 06-04-2016 08:31PM

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Andy Boyle is another I suppose.

Did he get a contract somewhere as a professional? I was just naming those who 'made it' as a professional.

CMOTDibbler · 06-04-2016 08:37PM

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

Did he get a contract somewhere as a professional? I was just naming those who 'made it' as a professional.

He's the guy I mentioned who's playing in NZ. Playing with Ponsonby Rugby as far as i know.

stephen_n · 07-04-2016 07:32AM

Anyone know the ratio of players who go into the academy to the ones that get senior contracts?

leinstertalk · 07-04-2016 09:05AM

There was a clear need for young back three players to emerge and play for the senior team in the past 3 years, no more so was this evident in Darragh Fanning playing so much for the senior team, the signing of Zane Kirchner, the signing of Mick McGrath and the resigning of Nacewa. There was a failure to develop a quality player to fill that gap. Perhaps even two players.. that may now be being relieved with Adam Byrne & Cian Kelleher developing to replace Kirchner/Nacewa.. maybe.

Replacing Teo has been done by poaching Henshaw, and it seems like Boss will be replaced by a fellow New Zealander. 12 & 9 are both places leinster have struggled in developing players for years now.

Leinster will in the near future have to identify & develop the replacements for Sexton, Kearney, McFadden & Luke Fitzgerald.. and the recent record wouldn't fill you with confidence that they will be able to replace these players.

2012 Cup winning backline:

15. Rob Kearney - still here but now in his 30s, struggled to play much for Leinster this season.
14. Fergus McFadden - still here but now in his 30s, but has had a poor season. Remains a squad player.
13. Brian O'Driscoll - retired, replaced in house by Ringrose.
12. Gordon D'Arcy - retired, failed to replace in house. Long term solution - Robbie Henshaw.
11. Isa Nacewa - retired and returned, looks to have one season left. Replacement?
10. Jonathan Sexton - still here now in his 30s, shows no major signs of slowing down bar injury concerns.
9. Eoin Reddan - still here but very near end of career, Replacement hopefully Luke McGrath or a NZer.

21. John Cooney - left for Connacht
22. Ian Madigan - left for Bordeaux
23. Dave Kearney - still here, is he 1st choice wing now?

Notable absentees:
Issac Boss - still here, but expected to leave at end of the season.
Luke Fitzgerald - still here, nearing his 30s, effective player but will always have questions over fitness.

former total · 07-04-2016 09:07AM

F**king hell. Is this still going on?

leinstertalk · 07-04-2016 09:10AM

stephen_n wrote: »

Anyone know the ratio of players who go into the academy to the ones that get senior contracts?

Here are the backs through the academy this decade and where they are next season:

Scrumhalf: John Cooney[1990] - Connacht
Scrumhalf: Luke McGrath[1993] - Leinster
Scrumhalf: Nick McCarthy[1995] - Academy Year 3
Scrumhalf: Charlie Rock[1995] - Academy Year 2
Outhalf: Cathal Marsh[1992] - Leinster
Outhalf/Centre: Steve Crosbie[1993] - out of contract
Outhalf: Ross Byrne[1995] - Academy Year 3
Outhalf: Joey Carbery[1995] - Academy Year 2
Centre: Noel Reid[1990] - Leinster
Centre: Colm O'Shea[1991] - Out of contract
Centre: Brendan Macken[1991] - Wasps
Centre: Tom Daly[1993] - Leinster
Centre: Tom Farrell[1993] - Out of contract
Centre: Garry Ringrose[1995] - Leinster
Centre: Harrison Brewer[1995] - Academy Year 3
Wing/Fullback: Darren Hudson[1990] - Out of contract
Wing: Andrew Boyle[1991] - AIL
Wing/Fullback: Andrew Conway[1991] - Munster
Wing: Sam Coghlan Murray[1992] - out of contract
Wing: Adam Byrne[1994] - Leinster
Wing: Ian Fitzpatrick[1994] - Academy Year 3
Wing/Fullback: Cian Kelleher[1994] - Academy Year 3
Wing/Centre: Rory O'Loughlin[1994] - Academy Year 3
Fullback: Billy Dardis[1995] - out of contract

leinstertalk · 07-04-2016 09:13AM

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

There'd be an element of that. However the lack of experience would temper that somewhat if not completely. There's also the regular appearances for their clubs by provincial players that would also offset that.

I wouldn't be convinced that all academy teams would by right end up in division 1A for starters. I suspect it would be 50/50 between 1A and 1B.

all academy teams aren't feasilble at all.. increased academy numbers and support, academy size of approx 30 players each year.. because bar the 1 or 2 truely elite talents in every age group there isn't much difference between the 5th best player and the 10th best player in leinster.

leinstertalk · 07-04-2016 09:14AM

dubal wrote: »

The younger Dardis looks bigger and better already so there is hope...

given leinsters record of success in recent years I won't hold my breath.

07-04-2016 09:25AM

former total wrote: »

F**king hell. Is this still going on?

This is what happens when you have no European rugby this weekend

:pac:

CMOTDibbler · 07-04-2016 10:40AM

stephen_n wrote: »

Anyone know the ratio of players who go into the academy to the ones that get senior contracts?

I looked at the output over the last five years. All but one (the aforementioned Andy Boyle) got senior contracts somewhere. The majority were with Leinster. The following came through the academy in that period and got senior contracts:

Tadhg Beirne
Bryan Byrne
Ed Byrne
Jack Conan
Andrew Conway*
John Cooney
Mark Flanagan
Tadhg Furlong
Darren Hudson
Dan Leavy
Cathal Marsh
Ben Marshall
Jack McGrath*
Luke McGrath
Ian Madigan
Ian McKinley
Marty Moore
Jordi Murphy
Jack O'Connell
Colm O'Shea
Noel Reid
Rhys Ruddock*
Dominic Ryan*
Tom Sexton
Gavin Thornbury
James Tracy
Josh van der Flier

That's 27 from a possible 37. Obviously some of the above have moved on (marked in bold) but they all got senior contracts. The ones marked with an asterisk were promoted to senior contracts early (before the period reviewed) but would normally have graduated inside that time period.

The ten that didn't make it are as follows:
Michael Keating (Rotherham)
Stewart Maguire (London Scottish)
Ciaran Ruddock (Retired)
Eamon Sheridan (Oyonnax)
Mikey Sherlock (Retired)
David Doyle ???
Andrew Boyle (Ponsonby Rugby NZ)
Conor Gilsenan (London Irish)
Sam Coghlan-Murray (Nottingham)
Jordi Coghlan (Munster)

leinstertalk · 07-04-2016 10:43AM

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

I looked at the output over the last five years. All but one (the aforementioned Andy Boyle) got senior contracts somewhere. The majority were with Leinster. The following came through the academy in that period and got senior contracts:

Tadhg Beirne
Bryan Byrne
Ed Byrne
Jack Conan
Andrew Conway*
John Cooney
Mark Flanagan
Tadhg Furlong
Darren Hudson
Dan Leavy
Cathal Marsh
Ben Marshall
Jack McGrath*
Luke McGrath
Ian Madigan
Ian McKinley
Marty Moore
Jordi Murphy
Jack O'Connell
Colm O'Shea
Noel Reid
Rhys Ruddock*
Dominic Ryan*
Tom Sexton
Gavin Thornbury
James Tracy
Josh van der Flier

That's 27 from a possible 37. Obviously some of the above have moved on (marked in bold) but they all got senior contracts. The ones marked with an asterisk were promoted to senior contracts early (before the period reviewed) but would normally have graduated inside that time period.

The ten that didn't make it are as follows:
Michael Keating (Rotherham)
Stewart Maguire (London Scottish)
Ciaran Ruddock (Retired)
Eamon Sheridan (Oyonnax)
Mikey Sherlock (Retired)
David Doyle ???
Andrew Boyle (Ponsonby Rugby NZ)
Conor Gilsenan (London Irish)
Sam Coghlan-Murray (Nottingham)
Jordi Coghlan (Munster)

Fairly sure Sheridan got a development contract before leaving but I could be wrong.
David Doyle retired due to injury
Andrew Boyle is back in Ireland afaik
Ciaran Ruddock is playing AIL, think Mikey Sherlock was playing AIL too but not sure.

9 backs got senior deals, none are currently 1st choice. 3 will be with leinster next season, along with 3 graduating academy backs - Ringrose, Daly, A Byrne.
3 backs in the graduating academy class do not have contracts at leinster for next season - Dardis, Crosbie, Farrell.

Tarf1234 · 07-04-2016 10:54AM

leinstertalk wrote: »

Fairly sure Sheridan got a development contract before leaving but I could be wrong.
David Doyle retired due to injury
Andrew Boyle is back in Ireland afaik
Ciaran Ruddock is playing AIL, think Mikey Sherlock was playing AIL too but not sure.

9 backs got senior deals, none are currently 1st choice. 3 will be with leinster next season.

Ruddock and Sherlock both playing AIL, Marys and Skerries respectively.

The highlighted is a very valid. Barring potentially Luke McGrath and Rignrose more then likely none will be first choice next year either. Is Jamieson Gibson Park comes I'd expect McGrath to be behind him.

Leinster Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread VII: The Fan-base Awakens

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