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Leinster Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread VII: The Fan-base Awakens

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Comments

  • #2462
    Journeyman_1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 841 ✭✭✭Journeyman_1


    .ak wrote: »
    The only thing on my Christmas list right now is a scrum half and a 10 journeyman

    I've been told I'm a 10...



    Unsure of the scale though


  • #2463
    The Rape of Lucretia
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,440 ✭✭✭The Rape of Lucretia


    AdamD wrote: »
    Am I the only who who thinks Leinster's academy is one of if not the best in Europe? Difficult to think of another producing so many internationals..

    I dont think it is.
    It does produce a good many internationals. But that is due being effective mopper upper of the talent that comes out of the Leinster schools rugby scene that gravitates to it and only looks beyond it only as a second choice on their rugby 'CEO Form' (and almost as failure). Its the schools that do it, with the high intensity, good quality coaching, and sheer competition and drive, from a young age.
    Look through the Leinster team and subs any week. Apart from the mercenaries, it really is all Blackrock, Clongowes, Belvedere, Michaels, etc. And we generally see the good ones coming. Of course, the Academy has to bring them up a level, but fundamentally, it is handed raw material that already has success in its sights.


  • #2464
    RichieRich89
    Users Awaiting Email Confirmation Posts: 511 ✭✭✭RichieRich89


    Journeyman_1 wrote: »
    Are we a development club or a club with ambitions to win?

    I have said it before but there is a real mentality at times in Irish rugby to give the young guys a chance just because they are younger. A professional team with high ambition cannot afford to continuously test new players in the hopes that they become a bit better than the guy that has proven his level. There are simply too many guys that can't make the step up. For every Luke Fitz there are multiple Macken/Reid/SCM type players.

    I don't mean to pick on your post specifically here as you make some good points. At the same time, up until this year there were there any realistic challengers to Reddan/Boss? Same with BOD and Darcy, they were performing well up until retirement. Do you think SOB should be encouraged to move on after his next contract (he'll be 29 I think) to free up back-row spaces? Would you have preferred if Sexton didn't come back this year to give Marsh and Byrne more gametime? The younger guys that are good enough will force their way into the team as guys like Ringrose and VdF have shown this year.

    I don't get this attitude. Teams develop players to strengthen the squad and improve the chances of winning. Unless you're Toulon that's how rugby works. Just because a team is developing players doesn't mean that the ultimate focus isn't to win. It's about getting the balance right when introducing inexperienced players. I think Schmidt got it about right

    You say that guys will come through if they're good enough, and cite Ringrose and van der Flier as examples. Should the bar really be set that high for academy players to be given a go? Those players were good enough to get called into the Ireland squad for the 6N, and start in JvdF's case. Look what Connacht are doing with players like Healy, Robb, Ronaldson, Adeolokun and MacGinty, who weren't even judged good enough to make the Leinster academy. Sometimes it feels as if Leinster academy backs have to be the finished product before they get a shot. Ben Te'o was given a fair chance to develop and improve. I'd like to see academy players given a similar chance to grow into a position.


  • #2465
    Journeyman_1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 841 ✭✭✭Journeyman_1


    RichieRich89 wrote: »
    I don't get this attitude. Teams develop players to strengthen the squad and improve the chances of winning. Unless you're Toulon that's how rugby works. Just because a team is developing players doesn't mean that the ultimate focus isn't to win. It's about getting the balance right when introducing inexperienced players. I think Schmidt got it about right

    You say that guys will come through if they're good enough, and cite Ringrose and van der Flier as examples. Should the bar really be set that high for academy players to be given a go? Those players were good enough to get called into the Ireland squad for the 6N, and start in JvdF's case. Look what Connacht are doing with players like Healy, Robb, Ronaldson, Adeolokun and MacGinty, who weren't even judged good enough to make the Leinster academy. Sometimes it feels as if Leinster academy backs have to be the finished product before they get a shot. Ben Te'o was given a fair chance to develop and improve. I'd like to see academy players given a similar chance to grow into a position.

    Of course we need to continue developing younger players but I dont agree with the idea that younger players should be given a ton of starts each season just because they have shown some talent in age grade or A level in the hopes that they are good enough while dropping good players that are over 25 but have proven they can perform.

    The difference between those guys at Connacht is that Connacht don't have anyone better. It's likely that none of those players would make a full Leinster 23 and many would struggle to make the squad with internationals away.

    Teo was a proven athlete, even if it was league and he is a physically imposing man. If we had a 100kg powerhouse with offloading skills in the academy he'd likely be given time to develop the rest of his game too.


  • #2466
    RichieRich89
    Users Awaiting Email Confirmation Posts: 511 ✭✭✭RichieRich89


    Journeyman_1 wrote: »
    Of course we need to continue developing younger players but I dont agree with the idea that younger players should be given a ton of starts each season just because they have shown some talent in age grade or A level in the hopes that they are good enough while dropping good players that are over 25 but have proven they can perform.

    The difference between those guys at Connacht is that Connacht don't have anyone better. It's likely that none of those players would make a full Leinster 23 and many would struggle to make the squad with internationals away.

    Teo was a proven athlete, even if it was league and he is a physically imposing man. If we had a 100kg powerhouse with offloading skills in the academy he'd likely be given time to develop the rest of his game too.

    With McFadden able to play 11, 12, 13 and 14, Te'o able to play 12 and 13, and Nacewa and Kirchner both able to play all three back-three positions it must be very tempting to go for the safe option and use their versatility when naming teams. Leo hasn't done badly but I think he could maybe have played Kelleher a bit more, and possibly given Daly a chance. Obviously it's about striking a balance. There should be more scope to trial an academy centre next season with Henshaw replacing Te'o because he'll be away on international duty.

    Daly is 102kg, and should have developed a good long-passing game playing 7s. Tom Farrell is listed at 97kg, and has looked pretty skillful handling-wise when he's played for Lansdowne. I can't find any stats for Brewer but he's pretty big as well


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  • #2467
    awec
    Administrators Posts: 55,085 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »
    I dont think it is.
    It does produce a good many internationals. But that is due being effective mopper upper of the talent that comes out of the Leinster schools rugby scene that gravitates to it and only looks beyond it only as a second choice on their rugby 'CEO Form' (and almost as failure). Its the schools that do it, with the high intensity, good quality coaching, and sheer competition and drive, from a young age.
    Look through the Leinster team and subs any week. Apart from the mercenaries, it really is all Blackrock, Clongowes, Belvedere, Michaels, etc. And we generally see the good ones coming. Of course, the Academy has to bring them up a level, but fundamentally, it is handed raw material that already has success in its sights.

    Is there another rugby club in the world with the talent pool to choose from of Leinster? I don't know, genuinely asking.

    The nature of Irish rugby suits Leinster massively. The fact the provinces are still seen as representative sides and don't really act like normal clubs is a big help.


  • #2468
    Billysays no
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,204 ✭✭✭Billysays no


    Journeyman_1 wrote: »
    I've been told I'm a 10...



    Unsure of the scale though
    I've been told I'm bitter. Over 50 but young at heart. So if you divide by 5 I could be a 10 also. Age thing :-)


  • #2469
    neelia11
    Closed Accounts Posts: 424 ✭✭neelia11


    RichieRich89 wrote: »
    With McFadden able to play 11, 12, 13 and 14, Te'o able to play 12 and 13, and Nacewa and Kirchner both able to play all three back-three positions it must be very tempting to go for the safe option and use their versatility when naming teams. Leo hasn't done badly but I think he could maybe have played Kelleher a bit more, and possibly given Daly a chance. Obviously it's about striking a balance. There should be more scope to trial an academy centre next season with Henshaw replacing Te'o because he'll be away on international duty.

    Daly is 102kg, and should have developed a good long-passing game playing 7s. Tom Farrell is listed at 97kg, and has looked pretty skillful handling-wise when he's played for Lansdowne. I can't find any stats for Brewer but he's pretty big as well

    Leinster have used 53 players this season. Ultimately leo's job is to win games and try and win trophies.


  • #2470
    leinstertalk
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 131 ✭✭leinstertalk


    Journeyman_1 wrote: »

    The difference between those guys at Connacht is that Connacht don't have anyone better. It's likely that none of those players would make a full Leinster 23 and many would struggle to make the squad with internationals away.

    that's odd considering how well connacht are performing with those players in their team..


  • #2471
    leinstertalk
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 131 ✭✭leinstertalk


    awec wrote: »
    Is there another rugby club in the world with the talent pool to choose from of Leinster? I don't know, genuinely asking.

    any NZ franchise to begin with.


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  • #2472
    leinstertalk
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 131 ✭✭leinstertalk


    The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »
    I dont think it is.
    It does produce a good many internationals. But that is due being effective mopper upper of the talent that comes out of the Leinster schools rugby scene that gravitates to it and only looks beyond it only as a second choice on their rugby 'CEO Form' (and almost as failure). Its the schools that do it, with the high intensity, good quality coaching, and sheer competition and drive, from a young age.
    Look through the Leinster team and subs any week. Apart from the mercenaries, it really is all Blackrock, Clongowes, Belvedere, Michaels, etc. And we generally see the good ones coming. Of course, the Academy has to bring them up a level, but fundamentally, it is handed raw material that already has success in its sights.

    Agreed, very rarely does the academy take a back who is not at an already very high level entering the academy and improve them massively.

    For instance I think Peter Robb was much better off going to Connacht where his skills were developed and where has improved. In the Leinster academy he'd still be twiddling his thumbs in the gym room.

    Also I think the leinster academy is too narrow and predefined in it's thinking development, just look at Noel Reid, a player with his skillset(pace, good skills, poor defender in traffic) would probably have ended up on the wing in NZ.

    Look at how little Madigan developed as an outhalf who can control games, might he have been better at a younger age focusing on a position he may have been better at, scrumhalf maybe?

    Who was the last 1st choice back, before Ringrose, developed by the academy? Sexton?

    Kearney/McFadden have never been 1st choice players when everyone was fit and available, solid squad players for sure and certainly fit the Schmidt model for wingers.
    Madigan, failed to step up and if anything has regressed, he is off now.
    Reid, decent backup but not good enough at 12 for top level.
    McGrath, is the best hope.. hopefully he can cement that place between now and next season.


  • #2473
    irishbucsfan
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 37,978 ✭✭✭✭irishbucsfan


    The kiwi and some areas of South Africa are way ahead of us. The Kiwi academy system is ahead of us as well but that's on a national level so it's a different issue. It's a completely different environment in those countries. Leinster's youth system over the past 5-10 years is outperforming pretty much every other side in Europe and that's why coaches from France came here to look at how we do things. I think Ulster though could have the same raw materials, maybe not the same pipeline.


  • #2474
    CMOTDibbler
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,833 ✭✭✭CMOTDibbler


    AdamD wrote: »
    Am I the only who who thinks Leinster's academy is one of if not the best in Europe? Difficult to think of another producing so many internationals..
    If you look at the academy as a development 'school' for Leinster players then you would say it's very successful. I looked at its output a few months back and there are very few that don't make it through to a full contract. Whether or not they make international grade is probably a statistical exercise as well. i.e 90% make full contract, 10% make international level. It's actually about 90% that make a full contract somewhere (not necessarily Leinster). This is how the success is measured but my view is that it's skewed by harvesting positions that are needed and the small size of the academy.

    One particular year's intake (2015 iirc) was taken exclusively from the two year previous senior cup final. That to me seems ludicrous. No doubt the intake were of a high standard but there's no way you can persuade me that out of the other almost 100 channels (schools and clubs) there wasn't one other player deserving of an academy spot.


  • #2475
    leinstertalk
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 131 ✭✭leinstertalk


    CMOTDibbler wrote: »
    If you look at the academy as a development 'school' for Leinster players then you would say it's very successful. I looked at its output a few months back and there are very few that don't make it through to a full contract. Whether or not they make international grade is probably a statistical exercise as well. i.e 90% make full contract, 10% make international level. It's actually about 90% that make a full contract somewhere (not necessarily Leinster). This is how the success is measured but my view is that it's skewed by harvesting positions that are needed and the small size of the academy.

    One particular year's intake (2015 iirc) was taken exclusively from the two year previous senior cup final. That to me seems ludicrous. No doubt the intake were of a high standard but there's no way you can persuade me that out of the other almost 100 channels (schools and clubs) there wasn't one other player deserving of an academy spot.

    2015 class
    Oisin Heffernan(Roscrea)
    Jeremy Loughman(Athy RFC-> Blackrock)
    Sean McNulty(Rockwell)
    David O'Connor(Skerries RFC-> Blackrock)
    Josh Murphy(St. Michaels)
    Charlie Rock(Blackrock)
    Joey Carbery(Athy RFC-> Blackrock)

    2014 class
    Peadar Timmins(Clongowes)
    Nick McCarthy(St. Michaels)
    Ross Byrne(St. Michaels)
    Harrison Brewer(Terenure)
    Garry Ringrose(Blackrock)
    Rory O'Loughlin(St. Michaels)
    Ian Fitzpatrick(Kings Hospital)
    Cian Kelleher(St. Michaels)

    2013 class
    Peter Dooley(Birr RFC)
    Ross Molony(St. Michaels)
    Steve Corsbie(St. Gerards)
    Tom Daly(Carlow RFC)
    Tom Farrell(Castleknock)
    Bill Dardis(Newbridge -> Terenure)
    Adam Byrne(Naas)

    So that's:
    St. Michaels: 6
    Blackrock: 5 - with 3 moving to the school from club backgrounds
    Club: 3 - with 3 more club players finishing their development playing schools rugby
    Terenure: 2
    Castleknock: 1
    St. Gerards: 1
    Kings Hospital: 1
    Clongowes: 1
    Roscrea: 1
    Rockwell: 1

    Personally i'd be in favour of taking 10 to 12 players every year, therefore broadening the areas players are taken from.


  • #2476
    irishbucsfan
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 37,978 ✭✭✭✭irishbucsfan


    CMOTDibbler wrote: »
    If you look at the academy as a development 'school' for Leinster players then you would say it's very successful. I looked at its output a few months back and there are very few that don't make it through to a full contract. Whether or not they make international grade is probably a statistical exercise as well. i.e 90% make full contract, 10% make international level. It's actually about 90% that make a full contract somewhere (not necessarily Leinster). This is how the success is measured but my view is that it's skewed by harvesting positions that are needed and the small size of the academy.

    One particular year's intake (2015 iirc) was taken exclusively from the two year previous senior cup final. That to me seems ludicrous. No doubt the intake were of a high standard but there's no way you can persuade me that out of the other almost 100 channels (schools and clubs) there wasn't one other player deserving of an academy spot.

    You're describing a problem with development in the province from u15-u19, not a problem with the academy.

    That's something that they're trying to fix nationwide, not just in Leinster, but it will take a long time. Both Schmidt and Murphy are involved in that process.


  • #2477
    CMOTDibbler
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,833 ✭✭✭CMOTDibbler


    irishbucsfan wrote: »
    You're describing a problem with development in the province from u15-u19, not a problem with the academy.

    That's something that they're trying to fix nationwide, not just in Leinster, but it will take a long time. Both Schmidt and Murphy are involved in that process.
    You could look at it that way but I think that's a stretch. I think it's too easy to select players for the sub-academy or academy from 100 channels when you've only eight places to fill. Easier still if you're only looking in particular positions.
    leinstertalk wrote: »

    So that's:
    St. Michaels: 6
    Blackrock: 5 - with 3 moving to the school from club backgrounds
    Club: 3 - with 3 more club players finishing their development playing schools rugby
    Terenure: 2
    Castleknock: 1
    St. Gerards: 1
    Kings Hospital: 1
    Clongowes: 1
    Roscrea: 1
    Rockwell: 1

    Personally i'd be in favour of taking 10 to 12 players every year, therefore broadening the areas players are taken from.
    Go back to the 2013 Senior Cup final and you'll find that eight of the players who played in that match are in the academy now. Often you get players fast tracked into the academy or into the senior squad before their 'time'. Jack Conan played on the same Senior Cup team as Steve Crosbie and they were in the same year in St. Gerards for example.


  • #2478
    leinstertalk
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 131 ✭✭leinstertalk


    CMOTDibbler wrote: »
    You could look at it that way but I think that's a stretch. I think it's too easy to select players for the sub-academy or academy from 100 channels when you've only eight places to fill. Easier still if you're only looking in particular positions.


    Go back to the 2013 Senior Cup final and you'll find that eight of the players who played in that match are in the academy now. Often you get players fast tracked into the academy or into the senior squad before their 'time'. Jack Conan played on the same Senior Cup team as Steve Crosbie and they were in the same year in St. Gerards for example.

    the 2013 cup final features two very talented teams playing great rugby.. I don't see the problem in 9 players making the academy from that final:

    Jeremy Loughman
    Ross Molony
    David O'Connor
    Josh Murphy
    Nick McCarthy
    Charlie Rock
    Ross Byrne
    Garry Ringrose
    Cian Kelleher

    6 of those players have already played for Leinster.

    Which of those 9 didn't deserve an academy place? Only argument I could see is O'Connor who is pretty small for a second row.
    It will soon by 10 by the way with James Ryan, but maybe would should exclude him because we have already taken so many players from that game into the academy.

    Nick Timoney, Oliver Jager and Denis Coulson were also playing in that game, and are involved with professional rugby aswell.

    Looking at the game gives a false impression, as it was a once off featuring two very talented sides.

    The 2014 final has produced 3 Leinster academy players so far: Carbery, Loughman & O'Connor. It may produce a few more, that won't be a problem.


  • #2479
    leinstertalk
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 131 ✭✭leinstertalk


    CMOTDibbler wrote: »
    You could look at it that way but I think that's a stretch. I think it's too easy to select players for the sub-academy or academy from 100 channels when you've only eight places to fill. Easier still if you're only looking in particular positions.

    100 channels??

    there is 2 underage channels - clubs and schools..they combine to make the sub-academy and players are picked from that.

    most underage clubs and schools do not produce players worthy of academy consideration and that is something leinster rugby needs to change but until more players are produced from non traditional areas, leinster have to choose from the best available players.

    There are signs of increased production from clubs, sadly the most talented player from that arena appears to be headed to OZ and the AFL. Leinster had 5 club only players in the Ireland u19 squad, which is great to see.


  • #2480
    irishbucsfan
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 37,978 ✭✭✭✭irishbucsfan


    CMOTDibbler wrote: »
    You could look at it that way but I think that's a stretch. I think it's too easy to select players for the sub-academy or academy from 100 channels when you've only eight places to fill. Easier still if you're only looking in particular positions.

    It's not a stretch whatsoever.

    The academy takes guys in who are the best prospects available at the time, or from the sub-academy. It's very rare someone gets missed. The sub-academy takes a wider group and they're the best prospects available from the u15-u19 band.

    The talent in that band is extremely unevenly spread because of both the uneven standard of coaching and the attraction of playing for strong school teams. I went to a rugby school, then played and coached at connected club (before emigrating), I've seen it first-hand for years. The answer is better education of coaches and increased viability of the club game throughout the province. The former is being addressed by the IRFU at a high level in consultation with some of the best underage coaches I'm aware of, and the latter is something that needs to happen at a provincial level. I also think they should change the format of school's rugby (at least in Leinster) so that the elite schools aren't the only teams playing multiple high-level games, but I'm sure the turkeys won't accept that particular vision for christmas. Once you have more players in that age group playing a better standard of games under a better standard of coaching then the academy might become the bottleneck.

    The academy is not capable of creating an international standard rugby player in 3 years. It's impossible. Players going in need to have a base level of conditioning, knowledge and skill that the sub-academy alone cannot provide.

    The English clubs work around this a little better than us by extending their academies down to club/schools level and starting to work with kids much earlier. We've had English internationals from what used to be our local Premiership club come to training to work with them. Their academy program, believe it or not, starts at u13 level and really kicks in at u16. It all falls behind after the age of 18 or so over here though IMO.

    Their approach works for those clubs, but it's not an answer for the Irish provinces, the answer is to use what we have already as an extension of the pipeline in place, it will take longer to develop but it will eventually be beyond the reach of those clubs.


  • #2481
    CMOTDibbler
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,833 ✭✭✭CMOTDibbler


    leinstertalk wrote: »
    Which of those 9 didn't deserve an academy place? Only argument I could see is O'Connor who is pretty small for a second row.
    It will soon by 10 by the way with James Ryan, but maybe would should exclude him because we have already taken so many players from that game into the academy.
    None of them. That's not my point. I'm absolutely convinced they were deserving of their spots, the point is how many were overlooked once the eight spots were filled? The other limiting issue is the need to develop players in a particular position due to a shortage in the senior squad. Those are the years that promising players in other positions (such as back three or back row) get ignored because there are 'enough of them'. James Hart was in competition with John Cooney for example and Cooney won out. I'm not saying Hart might have been better but look what happened Cooney and look where Hart is rumoured to be going next season.
    leinstertalk wrote: »
    100 channels??

    there is 2 underage channels - clubs and schools..they combine to make the sub-academy and players are picked from that.
    100 channels is around 40 schools and 60 clubs. The sub-academy is the holding pen for the next years academy intake. You don't make it to the academy you're gone. But it's the eight place limitation that does that. Often it's just bad luck for players who don't make it through such as a protracted injury or series of injuries.


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  • #2482
    RichieRich89
    Users Awaiting Email Confirmation Posts: 511 ✭✭✭RichieRich89


    neelia11 wrote: »
    Leinster have used 53 players this season. Ultimately leo's job is to win games and try and win trophies.

    ...while ensuring that enough home-grown players are developed so there's continuity and stability from year to year. Kirchner and Nacewa will likely stop playing for Leinster after next season. Leinster need to do everything they can to ensure that the likes of Kelleher are ready. Gametime is a big part of that


  • #2483
    Yeah_Right
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,204 ✭✭✭Yeah_Right


    awec wrote: »
    Is there another rugby club in the world with the talent pool to choose from of Leinster? I don't know, genuinely asking.

    The Blues have a talent pool that would make Leinster turn green with envy. And they manage to screw up bringing that talent through in such a way that it makes Leinster's academy system look like the Crusaders of the late '90s early '00s.

    Having the talent available is one thing, having the systems to do something about that talent is another. I wonder if the IRFU should have more involvement in the academies identifying and moving young talent around the provinces.


  • #2484
    CMOTDibbler
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,833 ✭✭✭CMOTDibbler


    irishbucsfan wrote: »
    the elite schools aren't the only teams playing multiple high-level games, but I'm sure the turkeys won't accept that particular vision for christmas.
    I'm not convinced that the 'elite' schools are actually playing multiple high-level games. The 'Big 6' schools don't play any competitive matches until the Senior Cup campaign starts. The Senior League is actually a very useful competition for the other Section B schools.
    irishbucsfan wrote: »
    The academy is not capable of creating an international standard rugby player in 3 years. It's impossible. Players going in need to have a base level of conditioning, knowledge and skill that the sub-academy alone cannot provide.
    I'm not sure who you're addressing that at because it's definitely not my contention that the academy should do this. It's job is to develop provincial players, what happens after that is down to how they develop once they've graduated to senior contracts.
    irishbucsfan wrote: »
    The English clubs work around this a little better than us by extending their academies down to club/schools level and starting to work with kids much earlier. We've had English internationals from what used to be our local Premiership club come to training to work with them. Their academy program, believe it or not, starts at u13 level and really kicks in at u16. It all falls behind after the age of 18 or so over here though IMO.

    Their approach works for those clubs, but it's not an answer for the Irish provinces, the answer is to use what we have already as an extension of the pipeline in place, it will take longer to develop but it will eventually be beyond the reach of those clubs.
    It's supposed to work a bit like that here where development officers work with schools and clubs. But there aren't enough development officers and I believe they rely heavily on the particular coaches to identify talent. That's suboptimal imo.


  • #2485
    The Lost Sheep
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,967 ✭✭✭✭The Lost Sheep


    Yeah_Right wrote: »
    The Blues have a talent pool that would make Leinster turn green with envy. And they manage to screw up bringing that talent through in such a way that it makes Leinster's academy system look like the Crusaders of the late '90s early '00s.

    Having the talent available is one thing, having the systems to do something about that talent is another. I wonder if the IRFU should have more involvement in the academies identifying and moving young talent around the provinces.
    Nucifora will be changing things and part of his job will to move talent around provinces...


  • #2486
    leinstertalk
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 131 ✭✭leinstertalk


    Yeah_Right wrote: »
    I wonder if the IRFU should have more involvement in the academies identifying and moving young talent around the provinces.

    No they shouldn't, that would be awful for Leinster rugby.


  • #2487
    leinstertalk
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 131 ✭✭leinstertalk


    The Lost Sheep wrote: »
    Nucifora will be changing things and part of his job will to move talent around provinces...

    after all his record in Australia was unmatched.

    But ye you are right, he is already trying to cut provincial ties as much as possible at underage rugby.


  • #2488
    irishbucsfan
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 37,978 ✭✭✭✭irishbucsfan


    CMOTDibbler wrote: »
    I'm not convinced that the 'elite' schools are actually playing multiple high-level games. The 'Big 6' schools don't play any competitive matches until the Senior Cup campaign starts. The Senior League is actually a very useful competition for the other Section B schools.

    It's not really a useful competition when the 6 schools aren't involved. It's a discussion for a different thread perhaps but I'd love to see the two merged, bring in geograhical conferences, and then have a playoff from the top placed sides.
    CMOTDibbler wrote: »
    I'm not sure who you're addressing that at because it's definitely not my contention that the academy should do this. It's job is to develop provincial players, what happens after that is down to how they develop once they've graduated to senior contracts.

    The players have to have the potential to go on to play elite level rugby. That's a fairly obvious requirement for entry to an academy system in a province like Leinster.
    CMOTDibbler wrote: »
    It's supposed to work a bit like that here where development officers work with schools and clubs. But there aren't enough development officers and I believe they rely heavily on the particular coaches to identify talent. That's suboptimal imo.

    Yes, and that's been highlighted already. You can't just wave a magic wand and fix it instantly unless you have a lot of money to spend.


  • #2489
    CMOTDibbler
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,833 ✭✭✭CMOTDibbler


    RichieRich89 wrote: »
    ...while ensuring that enough home-grown players are developed so there's continuity and stability from year to year. Kirchner and Nacewa will likely stop playing for Leinster after next season. Leinster need to do everything they can to ensure that the likes of Kelleher are ready. Gametime is a big part of that
    Game time for academy players is pathetically small. Taking two players in their third year of the academy: Tom Daly and Steve Crosbie as an example, they both have six 'A' and B+I cup caps and Crosbie has two senior appearances to Daly's zero.

    The rest of the time is with their AIL clubs and dependant on those clubs' needs and availability of other squad members who they would have exclusive access to.


  • #2490
    leinstertalk
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 131 ✭✭leinstertalk


    CMOTDibbler wrote: »
    Game time for academy players is pathetically small. Taking two players in their third year of the academy: Tom Daly and Steve Crosbie as an example, they both have six 'A' and B+I cup caps and Crosbie has two senior appearances to Daly's zero.

    The rest of the time is with their AIL clubs and dependant on those clubs' needs and availability of other squad members who they would have exclusive access to.

    they both have more caps than that at A level, Crosbie has 14 caps for the A team and Daly has 9 caps over this season and last including injury absences for both.

    The gametime they've could have gotten at senior level has went to other centres - Teo, Reid, O'Shea, Ringrose, Macken.


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  • #2491
    irishbucsfan
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 37,978 ✭✭✭✭irishbucsfan


    CMOTDibbler wrote: »
    Game time for academy players is pathetically small. Taking two players in their third year of the academy: Tom Daly and Steve Crosbie as an example, they both have six 'A' and B+I cup caps and Crosbie has two senior appearances to Daly's zero.

    The rest of the time is with their AIL clubs and dependant on those clubs' needs and availability of other squad members who they would have exclusive access to.

    Players are intentionally limited before Year 3 of the academy though in most cases, you're aware of that? There are established S&C reasons for it and the players are entirely aware of how the programme works.

    In Year 3 then they might get a go, but it's not exposure to senior rugby that they are judged by. I think this is just a case of not really being able to tell what's going on and so judging things by the only small bit of information available. Daly has his contract for next season, so obviously senior rugby isn't a necessity there.


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