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When aren't you a Catholic?

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  • #242
    realdanbreen
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,586 ✭✭✭realdanbreen


    Walter Large Rhino wrote: »
    I'll be ticking the no religion option anyway.


    Will there be a religious service and burial for you when you die?


  • #243
    Speedwell
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,809 ✭✭✭Speedwell


    realdanbreen wrote: »
    Will there be a religious service and burial for you when you die?

    How does anyone know that?


  • #244
    r93kaey5p2izun
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,962 ✭✭✭r93kaey5p2izun


    realdanbreen wrote: »
    Will there be a religious service and burial for you when you die?

    My instructions say no, but who knows if that will be respected?


  • #245
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    mud wrote: »
    I'll be ticking the 'no religion' box hidden away there where you may not look for it.

    On this point - any professional involved in survey design would be absolutely ashamed of the way that question is structured:
    • Why is Roman Catholic at the top? There's no clear reason for this.
    • The answers are not randomised. It may be difficult to change this now but what SHOULD happen is each census presents options in a different (randomised) order.
    • The 'No Religion' box should be with the other checkboxes rather than underneath a free text field (and be randomised with the other options)

    If you wanted to create a question that would maximise the number of people who unthinkingly answered "catholic" this is EXACTLY what you would come up with.

    Why it isn't designed according to well-established principles for getting accurate data is anyone's guess. Draw your own conclusions.


  • #246
    realdanbreen
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,586 ✭✭✭realdanbreen


    Walter Large Rhino wrote: »
    My instructions say no, but who knows if that will be respected?

    Oh right, I'll take that as a ;)yes.


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  • #247
    realdanbreen
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,586 ✭✭✭realdanbreen


    Deleted User wrote: »
    On this point - any professional involved in survey design would be absolutely ashamed of the way that question is structured:
    • Why is Roman Catholic at the top? There's no clear reason for this.
    • The answers are not randomised. It may be difficult to change this now but what SHOULD happen is each census presents options in a different (randomised) order.
    • The 'No Religion' box should be with the other checkboxes rather than underneath a free text field (and be randomised with the other options)
    If you wanted to create a question that would maximise the number of people who unthinkingly answered "catholic" this is EXACTLY what you would come up with.

    Why it isn't designed according to well-established principles for getting accurate data is anyone's guess. Draw your own conclusions.

    Boo Hooo!! The bold census people made me tick my religion, boo hoo.
    FFS what is it with athiests!


  • #248
    nozzferrahhtoo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,363 ✭✭✭nozzferrahhtoo


    realdanbreen wrote: »
    Oh right, I'll take that as a ;)yes.

    Do you often take people saying "no" as having said "yes"? Seems an odd practice.
    realdanbreen wrote: »
    Boo Hooo!! The bold census people made me tick my religion, boo hoo. FFS what is it with athiests!

    Not sure that has anything to do with atheists or atheism at all. What you are replying to said nothing about atheism and everything about statistics.

    There are known ways to correctly and incorrectly compile statistics. There are "best practices" and so forth. All the user you replied to was saying that the Census does not follow those best practices.

    So I am not seeing what that has to do with atheists, nor am I seeing the "boo hoo" you imagine is there.


  • #249
    Ush1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,490 ✭✭✭✭Ush1


    realdanbreen wrote: »
    Boo Hooo!! The bold census people made me tick my religion, boo hoo.
    FFS what is it with athiests!

    I can imagine that's what the person in the CSO who designed the form says to anybody who brings up the problem with the census.:pac:


  • #250
    Sonics2k
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,034 ✭✭✭Sonics2k


    beach_walker wrote: »
    And again, atheists telling who is and isn't Catholic.

    Of course they know better than the people themselves, it isn't from the wind that the stereotype came :p

    Well no, it's not a case of Atheists being bossy or telling you who is and isn't Catholic, because even Catholics/Buddhists/Muslims/Jew's can say you're not Catholics, if you don't follow and subscribe to the very basics of the religion.

    If you don't accept things like Original Sin, transubstantiation and the essential Dogmas then you're not a Catholic.

    You may be religious, you may be believe in God and event accept the Bible as the word of God, but you are not a Catholic. You're more likely to be a Protestant.

    Simply put:
    If you don't do the above, then don't tick Catholic on the census.


  • #251
    Zen65
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,630 ✭✭✭Zen65


    Sonics2k wrote: »
    If you don't accept things like Original Sin, transubstantiation and the essential Dogmas then you're not a Catholic.

    You may be religious, you may be believe in God and event accept the Bible as the word of God, but you are not a Catholic. You're more likely to be a Protestant.

    Too often, people confuse their faith with their allegiance. I'm certain that Sonics2k is correct to state you cannot be a Catholic in the proper meaning if you reject the core teachings of it, but you may not like to state an allegiance to the Religion which most closely matches your actual beliefs, which for many Catholics is actually some form of Protestantism. Life is funny like that.


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  • #252
    flo8s967qjh0nd
    Closed Accounts Posts: 879 ✭✭✭flo8s967qjh0nd


    When aren't you a Catholic?

    You are a Catholic if you have been baptised and if you consider yourself one. Whether you're a particularly 'good' or adherent Catholic is really a matter for yourself and your God. It's not something that could or should be dealt with in a census.

    I don't think it's for me, or anyone else on this thread to try and define other people's faith for them. Just tick the box that applies to you. It's not rocket science.


  • #253
    DamagedTrax
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,277 ✭✭✭DamagedTrax


    realdanbreen wrote: »
    Boo Hooo!! The bold census people made me tick my religion, boo hoo.
    FFS what is it with athiests!

    Im guessing its something to do with the fact that they dont subscribe to any religion.

    Kinda like asking a lesbian to get over themselves and just pick a penis...


  • #254
    beach_walker
    Users Awaiting Email Confirmation Posts: 976 ✭✭✭beach_walker


    Sonics2k wrote: »
    Well no, it's not a case of Atheists being bossy or telling you who is and isn't Catholic
    ....
    If you don't accept things like Original Sin, transubstantiation and the essential Dogmas then you're not a Catholic.

    Sure... :pac:

    Look it isn't up to you, it's up to each person. I was talking to a friend of mine at the weekend about this. He doesn't regularly go to Mass, has a lot of difficulty with some of the church's teachings but admitted that when faced with hardship (particularly family illness in his case) he's found comfort in having the church there. If it were up to you (thankfully it's not), he'd be down as whatever but he'll be ticking Catholic. He may not be a great one but he certainly considers himself one, and by having been baptised I am in no position to lecture him on the rights/wrongs of this.

    I know that some people need to jump through hoops to explain the 80ish% figure but really, c'mon. No amount of pointing to atheists living in fear of their Mammies or people being so stupid they tick the first box available can explain away that the vast majority of the population consider themselves as such.


  • #255
    beach_walker
    Users Awaiting Email Confirmation Posts: 976 ✭✭✭beach_walker


    realdanbreen wrote: »
    Boo Hooo!! The bold census people made me tick my religion, boo hoo.
    FFS what is it with athiests!

    The veil of intellectual superiority drops every five years when confronted with a multiple choice question. Make of that what you will.


  • #256
    maudgonner
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,455 ✭✭✭maudgonner


    All week I've been looking at the title of this thread and getting annoyed because it seems like the setup for a joke, but I couldn't complete it.

    So here's my best effort:

    When aren't you a Catholic?

    When you're a gauge boson, because you don't have any mass.

    :o


    (Fúck off physicists, if you come here and try to contradict that with your stupid science and facts and stuff)


  • #257
    Huntergonzo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,160 ✭✭✭Huntergonzo


    Sonics2k wrote: »
    If you don't accept things like Original Sin, transubstantiation and the essential Dogmas then you're not a Catholic.

    You may be religious, you may be believe in God and event accept the Bible as the word of God, but you are not a Catholic. You're more likely to be a Protestant.

    Simply put:
    If you don't do the above, then don't tick Catholic on the census.

    Ah but they will tick the catholic box, emotion tends to trump logic far too often, sadly most of these people we're indoctrinated into the catholic cult from a very young age so no matter how far removed they are from the religion they'll still tick the catholic box.

    It's like people who vote the same way their parents vote without objectively considering each candidate, there's absolutely no rhyme or reason for it, but they're going to do it anyway.

    My favourite of all though are those who don't even believe in God yet still consider themselves catholic, they're like vegetarian meat eaters, alcoholic pioneers, virgin prostitutes etc etc


  • #258
    DamagedTrax
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,277 ✭✭✭DamagedTrax


    maudgonner wrote: »
    All week I've been looking at the title of this thread and getting annoyed because it seems like the setup for a joke, but I couldn't complete it.

    So here's my best effort:

    When aren't you a Catholic?

    When you're a gauge boson, because you don't have any mass.

    :o


    (Fúck off physicists, if you come here and try to contradict that with your stupid science and facts and stuff)

    good effort :D:D:D

    [Although the escientist inside me is screaming out in pain]


  • #259
    flo8s967qjh0nd
    Closed Accounts Posts: 879 ✭✭✭flo8s967qjh0nd


    beach_walker wrote: »
    Sure... :pac:
    I know that some people need to jump through hoops to explain the 80ish% figure but really, c'mon. No amount of pointing to atheists living in fear of their Mammies or people being so stupid they tick the first box available can explain away that the vast majority of the population consider themselves as such.

    Very well put. The number of people coming online these days and regaling us with epic tales of how they bravely stood up to their scary mum or ferocious granny and ticked the box, with scant regard for the dire consequences which would obviously befall them.... give me a break.


  • #260
    Speedwell
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,809 ✭✭✭Speedwell


    maudgonner wrote: »
    All week I've been looking at the title of this thread and getting annoyed because it seems like the setup for a joke, but I couldn't complete it.

    So here's my best effort:

    When aren't you a Catholic?

    When you're a gauge boson, because you don't have any mass.

    :o


    (Fúck off physicists, if you come here and try to contradict that with your stupid science and facts and stuff)

    Which part was the joke, the part about not having any mass, or the part about preferring not to be contradicted by science? ;)


  • #261
    maudgonner
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,455 ✭✭✭maudgonner


    DamagedTrax wrote: »
    good effort :D:D:D

    [Although the escientist inside me is screaming out in pain]

    I told you to feck off, I spent at least seven minutes searching wikipedia and getting confused by stuff to come up with that. :D

    (It was going to be a photon, but apparently they have mass. I'm guessing they're Easter and Christmas mass-going types to keep the mammy happy, not unlike myself)


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  • #262
    beach_walker
    Users Awaiting Email Confirmation Posts: 976 ✭✭✭beach_walker


    Alia Yummy Bee wrote: »
    Very well put. The number of people coming online these days and regaling us with epic tales of how they bravely stood up to their scary mum or ferocious granny and ticked the box, with scant regard for the dire consequences which would obviously befall them.... give me a break.

    As I've said previously, this particular one has been around for at least the past three census' (that I'm aware of). Yet funnily enough these oppressed masses have never had the promised breakthrough in that time.

    One would have to conclude it's a widely overstated nonsense figure or that they're still living in the attic and afraid of Mammy...


  • #263
    Sonics2k
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,034 ✭✭✭Sonics2k


    beach_walker wrote: »
    Sure... :pac:

    Look it isn't up to you, it's up to each person. I was talking to a friend of mine at the weekend about this. He doesn't regularly go to Mass, has a lot of difficulty with some of the church's teachings but admitted that when faced with hardship (particularly family illness in his case) he's found comfort in having the church there. If it were up to you (thankfully it's not), he'd be down as whatever but he'll be ticking Catholic. He may not be a great one but he certainly considers himself one, and by having been baptised I am in no position to lecture him on the rights/wrongs of this.

    I know that some people need to jump through hoops to explain the 80ish% figure but really, c'mon. No amount of pointing to atheists living in fear of their Mammies or people being so stupid they tick the first box available can explain away that the vast majority of the population consider themselves as such.

    Yeah, I acknowledged this. He's a Christian, not a Catholic.

    The Dogmas are in place, if you do not accept them, then you are not a Catholic, and this is the rules of Vatican mind. You don't get to pick and choose and still be Catholic. It's like saying Muhammed is not the Prophet of Allah, you're not a Muslim if you don't accept it.

    I'm not going to get into a whole debate on religion, there's an Atheism & Agnostic forum and a Christianity forum for that kind of stuff.

    I'm simply stating, not believing those core things, means you aren't a Catholic. Not believing them means you're going to hell in the eyes of the Vatican. Your friend is Christian, as is my best friend, and that's fine. But probably not a Catholic.


  • #264
    flo8s967qjh0nd
    Closed Accounts Posts: 879 ✭✭✭flo8s967qjh0nd


    Sonics2k wrote: »
    Yeah, I acknowledged this. He's a Christian, not a Catholic.

    Quick, somebody tell the chap that you've made this decision for him :) . Your black and white view of Catholicism is pretty outdated.
    "Christian doctrine is not a closed system incapable of generating questions, doubts, interrogatives — but is alive, knows being unsettled, enlivened. … It has a face that is not rigid, it has a body that moves and grows, it has a soft flesh" Pope Francis, 2015


  • #265
    Maximus Alexander
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,080 ✭✭✭✭Maximus Alexander


    Alia Yummy Bee wrote: »
    Quick, somebody tell the chap that you've made this decision for him :) . Your black and white view of Catholicism is pretty outdated.
    "Christian doctrine is not a closed system incapable of generating questions, doubts, interrogatives — but is alive, knows being unsettled, enlivened. … It has a face that is not rigid, it has a body that moves and grows, it has a soft flesh" Pope Francis, 2015

    Has God been in touch recently with a few rule changes? :pac:


  • #266
    beach_walker
    Users Awaiting Email Confirmation Posts: 976 ✭✭✭beach_walker


    Sonics2k wrote: »
    Not believing them means you're going to hell in the eyes of the Vatican. Your friend is Christian, as is my best friend, and that's fine. But probably not a Catholic.

    1 - No it doesn't mean you're going to hell.
    2 - You're refuting the allegation that atheists are busy telling us who is and sin't a Catholic, but doing just that?! Really?!
    3 - I think people are in a better position to say what is it they are and aren't, without an outside group with a particular agenda telling them what's what.
    4 - Leave aside all religion debate, in Catholic dogma he is a Catholic. Not that I imagine that would carry a lot of weight with you, but consider the position of my friend. Both he and the Church are in agreement on his religious affiliation, you're the only one with a problem with it. Worth thinking about that imo.


  • #267
    r93kaey5p2izun
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,962 ✭✭✭r93kaey5p2izun


    realdanbreen wrote: »
    Oh right, I'll take that as a ;)yes.

    Right, well I'll take this as an admission of the strong likelihood of arrogant catholics imposing their religion on those who explicitly state they want nothing to do with it then.


  • #268
    Sonics2k
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,034 ✭✭✭Sonics2k


    Alia Yummy Bee wrote: »
    Quick, somebody tell the chap that you've made this decision for him :) . Your black and white view of Catholicism is pretty outdated.

    All right, point taken. I don't know the person in question, but from the commentators words it came across that way.

    Alia Yummy Bee wrote: »
    "Christian doctrine is not a closed system incapable of generating questions, doubts, interrogatives — but is alive, knows being unsettled, enlivened. … It has a face that is not rigid, it has a body that moves and grows, it has a soft flesh" Pope Francis, 2015

    I won't go into quotes of Pope Francis, or any other pope, considering he has directly contradicted statements made by Pope Benedict.
    I'll also leave this here. For Gay Marriage and Against Gay Marriage.


  • #269
    flo8s967qjh0nd
    Closed Accounts Posts: 879 ✭✭✭flo8s967qjh0nd


    Sonics2k wrote: »
    All right, point taken. I don't know the person in question, but from the commentators words it came across that way.




    I won't go into quotes of Pope Francis, or any other pope, considering he has directly contradicted statements made by Pope Benedict.
    I'll also leave this here. For Gay Marriage and Against Gay Marriage.

    Precisely, faith is not a black and white issue. I wish it were that simple :)


  • #270
    ambro25
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,986 ✭✭✭ambro25


    kneemos wrote: »
    If you're babtised you're on the books as a Catholic.
    So when, as a "book Catholic", you don't have your child baptised...does that get you off the hook/off the book? :confused:

    Only asking as, as a "book Catholic" within the meaning of your post but, by the same token, as resolutely non-practicing or -believing as all of the other posts and examples together (pre-marital sex, contraception, booze and meat on Good Friday, and all the rest of the eternal damnation stuff? abso-f***ing-lutely, and thrice better than once at that), I'm genuinely curious about whether this last one finally gets me clear, or whether what was done by my parents can never be undone :confused:

    Don't get me wrong, finding a school for our unbaptized little one in Dub was an absolute 'mare (eventually settled for the LFI, thanks to French secularity), so principles can come costly :pac:


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  • #271
    Sonics2k
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,034 ✭✭✭Sonics2k


    Alia Yummy Bee wrote: »
    Precisely, faith is not a black and white issue. I wish it were that simple :)

    To be fair, I never said faith is a black and white issue. I say that as an Agnostic, not an Atheist.

    I said being a Roman Catholic is a black and white issue.


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