Garda, nurses, teachers and doctor's pay

Geuze · 02-04-2016 10:56PM

end of the road wrote: »

well, some of us do. much of the people however don't want to pay for such candidates. they want everyone else to be on the same wage as them, nobody can earn any higher then them.

Principals of schools should be paid more than bank managers, as they do a more responsible and important job.

Mardy Bum · 02-04-2016 11:12PM

Geuze wrote: »

Principals of schools should be paid more than bank managers, as they do a more responsible and important job.

Careful, you will have the usual crowd whose only experience of the job is seeing one when they were 5-18 a few times telling you principals do nothing but sit in an office and sign cheques.

It takes an extraordinary individual to make a good principal in a non etb secondary school i.e voluntary, community/comprehensive, educate together.

maryishere · 02-04-2016 11:12PM

Geuze wrote: »

Principals of schools should be paid more than bank managers, as they do a more responsible and important job.

And Principles of creches, do they not do a responsible job, should they not have great holidays and job security and pension too?

Paid by the net contributers to the government, the private sector, the people who pay taxes to the government with both hands, half of who earn under 29k a year.

02-04-2016 11:19PM

Jesus Mary, what is your issue with the public sector?
I have no problem if the government want to take over minding preschool kids.

I'm not sure why you are so bitter about the public service.
What do you think is a decent wage for;
Doctors
Nurses
Gardai
Teachers
Paramedics
Prison officers
Just wondering?

You can wage them all separately

Geuze · 02-04-2016 11:28PM

maryishere wrote: »

Paid by the net contributers to the government, the private sector, the people who pay taxes to the government with both hands, half of who earn under 29k a year.

We have no proof that median wages are 28,500, though they may well be, the true figure is probably around there.

But note that median wages for full-time workers would be a better stat, as the 28,500 figure would be affected by hundreds of thousands of students and others in PT jobs.

Saying that half of workers earn less than 28,500 paints a picture of widespread low wages.

But many of those would be choosing PT work, and so the low wages would not be a bad sign.

Geuze · 02-04-2016 11:29PM

maryishere wrote: »

And Principles of creches, do they not do a responsible job, should they not have great holidays and job security and pension too?

By the way, I think the "job for life" in the PS should be abolished.

purplecow1977 · 03-04-2016 09:42PM

maudgonner wrote: »

And restoration of lost wages? What does that mean?

Genuinely - I assume it to mean that they want the pay cuts reversed, but if I've misinterpreted it then I'm open to correction. The pay cuts that were imposed to reduce salaries that were very much inflated during boom times.

By the way, it bears repeating - the overwhelming response in this thread and elsewhere is that newly qualified teachers should be treated equally to more senior teachers (despite the fact that this is not what applies in the private sector). That does not necessarily mean raising their entry salary to 38k though.

Wages inflated during boom times? I can assure you, my wages saw no 'inflation' during boom time. It's always been transparent. You start at point X on the scale and each full year you work you progress up the scale. Some years you are rewarded financially, others you are not.

During these boom times, people chasing a career in the public sector were almost ridiculed because everyone knew the real money was to be made in private sector. It's only when things turned sour, that people turned to the reliable public sector workers as scapegoats. The reliability of public service jobs cannot be denied, but it was always there.

The pay cuts that were imposed were due to austerity measures. When the austerity subsides, it seems only fair that such cuts would be reversed.

maudgonner · 03-04-2016 10:16PM

purplecow1977 wrote: »

Wages inflated during boom times? I can assure you, my wages saw no 'inflation' during boom time. It's always been transparent. You start at point X on the scale and each full year you work you progress up the scale. Some years you are rewarded financially, others you are not.

Public sector salaries rose 59% between 2001 and 2006.

http://www.finfacts.ie/irelandbusinessnews/publish/article_10006397.shtml

Education was the area with the biggest increases - 65% increase in pay costs.

maryishere · 03-04-2016 10:38PM

bubblypop wrote: »

I have no problem if the government want to take over minding preschool kids.

What do you think is a decent wage for;
Doctors
Nurses
Gardai
Teachers
Paramedics
Prison officers
Just wondering?

Remember that, according to statistics, "For full-time workers, median earnings were estimated at €32,000 in gross income"
http://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/super-rich-or-super-angry-where-are-you-on-ireland-s-income-pyramid-1.2104861
That means half of workers earn more than that and half more.
Most of the people on 32k a year will never have the job security or pension of those in the public servive...yet their taxes go towards paying the pensions etc of those in the public service.

If you rewards some people in society with very high wages / pensions, remember you will be leaving the rest worse off.

If you want the government to take over minding preschool kids, and creche workers to be paid public sector pay rates and pensions, you do realise everyone else will have to pay for that through increased taxes, or some other way..

03-04-2016 11:02PM

maryishere wrote: »

Remember that, according to statistics, "For full-time workers, median earnings were estimated at €32,000 in gross income"
http://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/super-rich-or-super-angry-where-are-you-on-ireland-s-income-pyramid-1.2104861
That means half of workers earn more than that and half more.
Most of the people on 32k a year will never have the job security or pension of those in the public servive...yet their taxes go towards paying the pensions etc of those in the public service.

If you rewards some people in society with very high wages / pensions, remember you will be leaving the rest worse off.

If you want the government to take over minding preschool kids, and creche workers to be paid public sector pay rates and pensions, you do realise everyone else will have to pay for that through increased taxes, or some other way..

So you think all public servants should earn 32k or less?
There's a lot of people in the public sector that don't earn 32k a year either. ( not me, I do )
I'd imagine I paid a lot more tax last year than you.

maryishere · 03-04-2016 11:40PM

bubblypop wrote: »

So you think all public servants should earn 32k or less?

I did not say that. That would clearly be pathetically stupid ( all public servants earning 32k or less ). People like Doctors etc should be paid more than most other workers, due to the skills needed to be a doctor and the amount of time / cost involved in qualifying. But given than public servants enjoy the great advantage of job security and huge pensions that virtually nobody else can get nowadays ( defined benefit), do you think it fair than public servants get paid more than the private sector?

bubblypop wrote: »

I'd imagine I paid a lot more tax last year than you.

That has nothing to do with it. No need to personalise it. Anyway you might be very surprised if you knew how many public servants my taxes kept employed last year, now that you mention it.

04-04-2016 12:36AM

The public sector do not get paid more than the private sector.
Some people earn more in the public service, some people earn more in the private sector.
You seem to have a problem so with the pensions they get.
I don't really have a problem with someone that has spent 30+ years serving the country getting a decent pension.
Personally, I don't care about the pensions, I would prefer more money now, when I need it.
The public service now pay a pension levy ( basically a tax because they have the pension)
Don't know about others, but I'd be happy to pay that levy towards the pension.
It would be interesting to know exactly how long public servants claim their pension for.
I'm aware that a lot of gardai, die pretty early, so don't actually receive that much in pensions. I'm not aware of other professions.
I believe, if the pension levy was put towards pensions, there wouldn't be a whole lot of people against it.

As I said, me & a lot of people I know, would be happier earning more now, rather than the ' big pension'

maryishere · 04-04-2016 12:44AM

bubblypop wrote: »

The public sector do not get paid more than the private sector.

Stop taking the ****.
http://www.davidmcwilliams.ie/2014/09/01/public-sector-the-insider-story
http://www.thejournal.ie/public-sector-wage-higher-300-than-private-sector-1637290-Aug2014/
http://www.cso.ie/px/pxeirestat/statire/SelectVarVal/Define.asp?Maintable=EHQ08&PLanguage=0
http://www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/public-sector-pay-rates-nearly-50-higher-than-those-in-private-sector-1.1907313
http://www.irishexaminer.com/viewpoints/ourview/public-v-private-sector--growing-pay-gap-is-unfair-205760.html

04-04-2016 12:47AM

maryishere wrote: »

Stop taking the ****.
http://www.davidmcwilliams.ie/2014/09/01/public-sector-the-insider-story
http://www.thejournal.ie/public-sector-wage-higher-300-than-private-sector-1637290-Aug2014/
http://www.cso.ie/px/pxeirestat/statire/SelectVarVal/Define.asp?Maintable=EHQ08&PLanguage=0
http://www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/public-sector-pay-rates-nearly-50-higher-than-those-in-private-sector-1.1907313
http://www.irishexaminer.com/viewpoints/ourview/public-v-private-sector--growing-pay-gap-is-unfair-205760.html

Some do
Some don't
There are a huge amount of jobs in the public sector.
It's hardly fair to lump some clerical jobs in the same pile as the garda commissioner, or doctors etc is it?

maryishere · 04-04-2016 01:04AM

bubblypop wrote: »

Some do
Some don't
There are a huge amount of jobs in the public sector.
It's hardly fair to lump some clerical jobs in the same pile as the garda commissioner, or doctors etc is it?

That why they sometimes use median statistics.

Geuze · 04-04-2016 10:39AM

maudgonner wrote: »

Public sector salaries rose 59% between 2001 and 2006.

http://www.finfacts.ie/irelandbusinessnews/publish/article_10006397.shtml

I always say to people, ignore websites like FinFacts, run by a man based in Asia, when you can use the primary source data, the CSO.

http://www.cso.ie/quicktables/GetQuickTables.aspx?FileName=PSA01.asp&TableName=Public+Sector+Average+Weekly+Earnings&StatisticalProduct=DB_PS

Go direct to the CSO.

PS earnings 2001 = 671.78 pw

PS earnings 2006 = 882.02 pw

That's a 31.3% rise, far below what you claim.

Geuze · 04-04-2016 10:42AM

bubblypop wrote: »

The public sector do not get paid more than the private sector.

Eve though I defend most of the PS, [not the semi-states], I have to acknowledge that there was a PS pay premium.

But the three paycuts mean that the PS pay premium has, on average, been reduced to close to 0%.

Although still some grade are paid more, and some less, than their private sector counterparts.

esforum · 04-04-2016 10:48AM

Mary only has a problem with averages when its against the private sector, she loves placing a CO rank and the Garda commissioner together when its representing the average in the public sector.

Her pension arguement has been blown apart a dozen times already and she steadfast refuses to explain why she wont or didnt join the public sector despite the amazing career it is (I could suggest sheer stupidity but perhaps not)

maudgonner wrote: »

Public sector salaries rose 59% between 2001 and 2006.

http://www.finfacts.ie/irelandbusinessnews/publish/article_10006397.shtml

Education was the area with the biggest increases - 65% increase in pay costs.

Finfacts also likes to ignore the fact that benchmarking wasnt actually only for the public sector, it was a national wage agreement and the increases merely reflected how far behind some areas were.

This is a more recent study: https://www.esri.ie/pubs/WP270.pdf

Now, before anyone accuses me of anything, this report shows public sector wages are higher however it also makes a very interesting point which Mary will be baffled by, the public sector workers are actually higher educated than the private.

It then shows that the public sector has on average, more experiences staff. I would suggest this is because of A, recruitment freezes and B, as a result of the economy more staff are choosing to keep working instead of retiring.

It alkso blows apart the above mentioned 59%

maudgonner · 04-04-2016 11:02AM

Geuze wrote: »

Eve though I defend most of the PS, [not the semi-states], I have to acknowledge that there was a PS pay premium.

But the three paycuts mean that the PS pay premium has, on average, been reduced to close to 0%.

Although still some grade are paid more, and some less, than their private sector counterparts.

Fair enough.

I'd argue that there should be a pay gap between the public and private sector - and that it should be a negative one.

This would reflect the substantial benefits that come about from work in the public sector - defined benefit pension, job security and in the case of teachers - a substantially shorter number of hours worked per year than average.

maudgonner · 04-04-2016 12:03PM

Geuze wrote: »

I always say to people, ignore websites like FinFacts, run by a man based in Asia, when you can use the primary source data, the CSO.

http://www.cso.ie/quicktables/GetQuickTables.aspx?FileName=PSA01.asp&TableName=Public+Sector+Average+Weekly+Earnings&StatisticalProduct=DB_PS

Go direct to the CSO.

PS earnings 2001 = 671.78 pw

PS earnings 2006 = 882.02 pw

That's a 31.3% rise, far below what you claim.

These CSO figures average out all salaries in the sector, I assume. A sector that grew in numbers employed by 18% in the period according to that article.

It's not a huge leap to suggest that a large percentage of that growth would have been new entrants on the lower end of the pay scale, bringing the average earnings down.

Therefore an overall average would show a lower percentage growth than a like-for-like comparison of salaries over the period. Fair to say? It does not measure the pay-rises given to the different grades across the pay-scale.

I mention this because my post was in response to purplecow1977's claim that their wage had not seen 'inflation' over this time. Which does not tally with the figures. Even if you go by the average 31.3% figure you gave, that's far above economic inflation.

purplecow1977 must have been spectacularly unlucky not to benefit from these gains, as most in the public sector seem to have. (Private sector saw gains too, by the way, I'm not claiming otherwise)

Geuze · 04-04-2016 12:34PM

maudgonner wrote: »

Fair enough.

I'd argue that there should be a pay gap between the public and private sector - and that it should be a negative one.

This would reflect the substantial benefits that come about from work in the public sector - defined benefit pension, job security and in the case of teachers - a substantially shorter number of hours worked per year than average.

I agree and disagree.

Pension should be improved in private sector, not disimproved in PS.

Job security should be abolished in the PS.

Everybody should want good people in teaching - it's foolish and a false economy for society to want to hire cheap teachers.

Geuze · 04-04-2016 12:36PM

maudgonner wrote: »

These CSO figures average out all salaries in the sector, I assume. A sector that grew in numbers employed by 18% in the period according to that article.

It's not a huge leap to suggest that a large percentage of that growth would have been new entrants on the lower end of the pay scale, bringing the average earnings down.

Therefore an overall average would show a lower percentage growth than a like-for-like comparison of salaries over the period. Fair to say? It does not measure the pay-rises given to the different grades across the pay-scale.

Yes, fair point.

What you describe is known as "compositional effects/changes", I think.

thattequilagirl · 04-04-2016 12:38PM

Any chance at all a mod would fix the misspelling in the title?

It's really bugging me!

maudgonner · 04-04-2016 12:44PM

Geuze wrote: »

I agree and disagree.

Pension should be improved in private sector, not disimproved in PS.

Job security should be abolished in the PS.

Everybody should want good people in teaching - it's foolish and a false economy for society to want to hire cheap teachers.

I agree with you on all these points

KERSPLAT! · 04-04-2016 12:54PM

thattequilagirl wrote: »

Any chance at all a mod would fix the misspelling in the title?

It's really bugging me!

Done

tritium · 04-04-2016 01:28PM

esforum wrote: »

Now, before anyone accuses me of anything, this report shows public sector wages are higher however it also makes a very interesting point which Mary will be baffled by, the public sector workers are actually higher educated than the private.

While I don't have particular skin in this game having worked in both public and private sector, this particular point bugs me greatly on a number of levels (I) many PS qualifications are more a function of on the job educational supports the PS provides, while private sector often goes for more targeted training not necessarily with a qualification at the end.
(Ii) beyond a certain point it's doesn't matter if I have 1 or 100 degrees, my experience is what matters. Its (while challenging in terms of time management etc) somewhat easier to get a qualification in something youre actually doing day to day.

esforum · 04-04-2016 03:03PM

tritium wrote: »

While I don't have particular skin in this game having worked in both public and private sector, this particular point bugs me greatly on a number of levels (I) many PS qualifications are more a function of on the job educational supports the PS provides, while private sector often goes for more targeted training not necessarily with a qualification at the end.
(Ii) beyond a certain point it's doesn't matter if I have 1 or 100 degrees, my experience is what matters. Its (while challenging in terms of time management etc) somewhat easier to get a qualification in something youre actually doing day to day.

IHave you even one iota of proof to back that up?

Also, if you look back over the thread you will see the people that are using education standards in the arguement, it was not I.

esforum · 04-04-2016 03:08PM

Geuze wrote: »

Job security should be abolished in the PS.

How so? If I am incompetent I can be sacked. The only job security is that my job will not let me go based on supply and demand however I am unlikely to be uneeded anytime soon anyway.

How many teachers are on temp contracts?

the civil service job security is in reality more based on a constant need, not a desire to protect the staff. As one area slows down, another builds up and the staff are moved and retrained. Its not a case of a department staying open just because theres staff there.

Personally and of course this is only a drop in an ocean, the customer service, efficiency and competance I have recieved / seen from state departments has completely outshone the private sector.

esforum · 04-04-2016 03:23PM

maudgonner wrote: »

Fair enough.

I'd argue that there should be a pay gap between the public and private sector - and that it should be a negative one.

This would reflect the substantial benefits that come about from work in the public sector - defined benefit pension, job security and in the case of teachers - a substantially shorter number of hours worked per year than average.

But who are you comparing them too? Its already been shown that private teachers earn more than their dept of education counterparts. Theres no genuine comparison for Gardai, firefighters, prison officer or even nurses really.

Add in the unskilled worker in the private sector that again has no genuine public sector counterpart and the balance shifts.

What is the average wage of a bin man in one of the private companies compared to Dublin council?

What do you compare in the public sector to a worker in fast food?

By and large, the sectors are chalk and cheese and serve different purposes.

I think that the most important jobs in the country are public sector and therefore the difference in wages should be positive

maudgonner · 04-04-2016 03:37PM

esforum wrote: »

But who are you comparing them too?

Geuze is the poster who brought up the figures on public/private sector comparisons, so I'll let him/her answer that.

My point is that the benefits that go along with public sector jobs are substantial, and any salary premium should reflect that.

Do you disagree that a defined benefit pension is a huge benefit? That teachers' shorter working year is a huge plus? That job security (which you have argued with above, but anecdotal evidence, including that from a senior civil servant) is a huge benefit?

Garda, nurses, teachers and doctor's pay

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