Leinster Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread VII: The Fan-base Awakens

I still think Leinster have the best performing academy (as they should)

I've tried to list all the players 25 or under (Irish qualified) at each province who I think could go on to be part of the Irish squad in the next few years. Obviously very subjective, but I think it illustrates a few things:

Leinster producing more than enough forwards but not enough backs
Ulster the opposite
Munster have some good young players coming through put probably not as many as we/they would like
Connacht probably the team with the players coming though in all/most positions

I think this shows we are VERY strong in several positions - centre, back row, 2nd row, front row

We are also quite thin and weak at scrum half, out half and full back. I think the back 3 is a real worry for us, I think we are well behind all other top nations in this position.

I've probably been a little generous putting some players in here, and I'm sure there are others I've left out, but I think it is interesting nonetheless.

Position Leinster Ulster Munster Connacht
Front Row Furlong, Moore, Tracey, Dooley Herring, McCall Cronin, N Scannell Bealham, Buckley
Second Row Molony, M Kearney Henderson, O'Connor Dillane, Roux
Back Row Ruddock, Murphy, VDF, Leavy, Conan O'Donoghue Heenan, Masterson, McKeon
Scrum Half L McGrath Marmion, Blade
Out Half Jackson Holland Carty
Centre Ringrose, Reid Marshall, McCloskey, Olding, Arnold R Scannell Henshaw
Wings Byrne, Kelleher Gilroy, Scholes Sweetnam
Fullbacks Conway Leader, O'Halloran

Deleted User wrote: »

Lol closed account. Better to burn out than fade away.

Is it safe to come back here now.....

Mahatma has a bit of an axe to grind re: Leinster but it's a bit of a stretch even for him to be questioning Leinster's academy. It's a bit fallow in the backs, but the development of forwards, especially in the front and back rows has been exemplary. Looks like we're finally getting our act together with lock forwards too.

Clegg wrote: »

I'll give a straight answer to a tongue in cheek post! Sometimes the talent just isn't there to produce players for Leinster. In recent years we've enjoyed a lot of success developing forwards coming from schools and underage rugby. But the Leinster academy, no matter how good, can't magic up players from nothing. The can only do so much to help along a players skills and technique. If a player isn't good enough he just isn't good enough. This is what I think happened over the last few seasons with the backs. I'm hopeful for Adam Byrne and Cian Kelleher that they'll succeed where Hudson, SCM etc failed. Byrne is physically very imposing and Kelleher has the wheels to burn defenders on the outside. Hopefully they're good enough to get an extended run of games.

Of course there are always a few who develop beyond all expectation with regular game time, but I don't think we can be too hard on coaches in that scenario. They're there to provide for the first team. If they don't think a player is ready after three years or has the potential to be an assets in a few years its right to let them go.

It would be great if we could do a New Zealand and have players with great handling ability lines of running already ingrained in them from secondary school. Hopefully we might be seeing some of that from the Belvo lads who just won the senior cup. Played some astonishing attacking rugby. I hope to see a few of them in the academy eventually.

I wasn't being tongue in cheek! Have I gained a reputation as such? :eek:

I actually think an artificial limit is being placed on the academy. I've said this a number of times and it gets dismissed with the answer that we don't have the players to start with and where's my evidence to back it up?

In the first case, it can't be true that Leinster are only able to produce the same number (about eight) of prospects as Minster, Ulster and Connacht can every year.

In the second. It's very difficult to prove the absence of something. I've been told that there aren't more players in the Leinster academy because there aren't any more players. It's circular reasoning that isn't backed up by the statistics. There has to be in excess of 2000 players coming from the schools and clubs of Leinster every year. If you say that of that 2000, 500 come from the schools' cup squads then you'd have to ask why only 1 in 60 is good enough for the academy (and that's completely disregarding the clubs and lower ranked schools who could have equally good players to perhaps a lesser extent).

It doesn't make sense to me.

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

I don't know if they're comparable though. How many kids train at soccer with top class coaches for five or six days a week? The ratio of professional players to registered players in Ireland is a good bit lower than in other countries. I know NZ is exceptional but they have 50% more registered players and depending on how you count them, over four times as many professional squads.

And the revenue streams the player base and following generates. Running the academies cost money that would have to be diverted from elsewhere to expand them. Also there's no guarantee that upping quantity will ensure quality. In most cases you'd have to assume what's in the academy is the best available. They may get it wrong sometimes but rarely if ever in an international class player.

Makes sense that they want to cap him ASAP.

RichieRich89 wrote: »

So, if reports coming out of England are to be believed Leinster are effectively developing talent for one of Ireland's main rivals. This is outrageous. Surely the IRFU have to step in?

With regard to the debate over the academy and Leinster producing talented backs my own feeling is that post-Schmidt Leinster have been reluctant to give young backs sufficient gametime. Kelleher's involvements have been severely restricted, and while Adam Byrne has been involved to a good degree, Tom Daly hasn't seen a minute's action. Would Peter Nelson, Rory Scholes, Sam Arnold and Jacob Stockdale have got as much gametime this season if they played for Leinster instead of Ulster? I think the answer to that is probably 'no'. Leinster need to be more bullish in backing their young outside backs

At this stage and even as a Munster fan, I want Ben T'eo to play really well today just to piss you off.

stephen_n wrote: »

And the revenue streams the player base and following generates. Running the academies cost money that would have to be diverted from elsewhere to expand them. Also there's no guarantee that upping quantity will ensure quality. In most cases you'd have to assume what's in the academy is the best available. They may get it wrong sometimes but rarely if ever in an international class player.

You could be right, but I'm not convinced for the following reasons:
1. Leinster; who have the highest number of players of all the provinces have an academy size less than or equal to the other provinces.
2. There have been a number of quality players who never made the Leinster academy in recent years now plying their trade with other clubs both here and abroad.
3. I have known of similar quality players dropped from the sub academy in recent years because they were injured for a significant portion of their time there.
4. The makeup of the academy is often skewed towards a particular perceived need in the senior squad which means places are blocked for other positions and it stretches credulity that these players can be identified just when they're needed.