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Leinster Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread VII: The Fan-base Awakens

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  • #2282
    dub_skav
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,530 ✭✭✭dub_skav


    McKinley, O'Malley, Conway, Felix Jones. All came out since Luke (who came through freakishly young, so some older guys came on after him)
    You can also include Sexton as he came through a bit later.

    Though derided as they are here; Madigan, Dave and McFadden have all represented Ireland ably at one time or another.
    There are others like Macken, Marsh and McGrath who may not have reached the heights that we want (yet?), but were certainly good prospects.

    That we have not produced another BOD, Hickie, Horgan or Fitzgerald is testament to just how good they were, not to how bad those following them have been.
    If Ringrose ends up being the next in that great line then we didn't have too long to wait.

    I understand that some people believe Leinster are in a bad place, but the academy is certainly still doing its job.

    I can't believe I got sucked in again


  • #2283
    whatawaster
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,909 ✭✭✭✭whatawaster


    brokenhooker wrote: »
    Is it unrealistic to produce good backs like Ulster have?

    Because Leinster aren't even doing that.

    No, but Ulster aren't producing forwards of the quality of Healy, McGrath, Furlong, Moore, Toner, SOB, Ruddock, VDF, Murphy etc etc

    Luke McGrath and Ringrose both look international quality to me, but time will tell.


  • #2284
    brokenhooker
    Closed Accounts Posts: 236 ✭✭brokenhooker


    awec wrote: »
    Ulster's backs are freakishly good at the moment but that won't last. Eventually it'll dry up.

    Leinster don't have a monopoly on producing backs. I don't believe the "we're Leinster, we should be producing backs" argument really stands up.

    who said we have a monoply?

    we should however be doing a much better job given the playing resources available.. 3 starting backs in the backline came through the academy.. that's not good enough.

    Leinster are fighting it out with Munster in terms of developing backs and that's not good enough.


  • #2285
    Tox56
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,636 ✭✭✭✭Tox56


    brokenhooker wrote: »
    that's a nice little story to trot out but it didn't happen.. it's all what if's, pie in the sky stuff.

    Leinster rugby have failed utterly in recent years in developing backs. Which is clear as day with 3 NIQ's in the backline & a 35 year old scrumhalf who is miles off his best.

    Pretty sure it (Omalley being picked ahead of BOD on merit) actually did happen, but EOM got injured in training or something


  • #2286
    brokenhooker
    Closed Accounts Posts: 236 ✭✭brokenhooker


    dub_skav wrote: »
    McKinley, O'Malley, Conway, Felix Jones. All came out since Luke (who came through freakishly young, so some older guys came on after him)
    You can also include Sexton as he came through a bit later.

    Though derided as they are here; Madigan, Dave and McFadden have all represented Ireland ably at one time or another.
    There are others like Macken, Marsh and McGrath who may not have reached the heights that we want (yet?), but were certainly good prospects.

    That we have not produced another BOD, Hickie, Horgan or Fitzgerald is testament to just how good they were, not to how bad those following them have been.
    If Ringrose ends up being the next in that great line then we didn't have too long to wait.

    I understand that some people believe Leinster are in a bad place, but the academy is certainly still doing its job.

    I can't believe I got sucked in again

    McKinley and O'Malley can be pointed out as what ifs.. neither were internationals when they retired.

    Conway and Jones left Leinster. Also neither are top class players anyway.
    Madigan//McFadden/Kearney are decent players but they aren't top class, especially this season. Leinster & Ireland should be aiming higher.

    Macken, raw talent that the academy and senior setup failed to mould and get the best out of.
    Marsh, not that talented.
    McGrath, talented player who Leinster have failed to develop.

    Again one player in Ringrose is not a good record.


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  • #2287
    neelia11
    Closed Accounts Posts: 424 ✭✭neelia11


    brokenhooker wrote: »
    8 years is some gap and frankly it's unacceptable in terms of whoever is in charge of developing young backs. Look what Connacht have achieved in recent years.

    Connacht have produced ONE back [10-15] in recent times who has been capped internationally [Henshaw]. Two if you want to include Marmion but he has only made a handful of appearances. What have they achieved that Leinster need to match?


  • #2288
    CMOTDibbler
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,833 ✭✭✭CMOTDibbler


    former total wrote: »
    Last post that will indulge this nonsense.

    It was fluke that Kearney and Fitzgerald both emerged as top class players within a year of each other. We weren't do anything different or better. Prior to that you're going back 6 or 7 years again to the likes of Horgan and D'Arcy.

    Completely unrealistic expectation that we'd churn out world class backs year after year.
    He has a point though. For a long time I've been saying that the Leinster academy is under resourced in relation to the available pool of players. I think it was in 2013 that the intake to the academy consisted of players solely drawn from the previous year's senior cup final.

    It's not feasible that the Leinster academy has the same number of players as Munster, Ulster or Connacht. It just doesn't make sense on any level. I've known of promising players who haven't made it through from the sub-academy because they've been injured for a protracted period.

    That's not to say that there'll be a steady stream of top class backs coming through if they expand it, but it looks to me as if it's heavily leaning towards recruiting whatever the need du jour is in the pro ranks rather than actually nurturing and producing talent.


  • #2289
    brokenhooker
    Closed Accounts Posts: 236 ✭✭brokenhooker


    neelia11 wrote: »
    Connacht have produced ONE back [10-15] in recent times who has been capped internationally [Henshaw]. Two if you want to include Marmion but he has only made a handful of appearances. What have they achieved that Leinster need to match?

    They have a better backline currently when compared to Leinster.


  • #2290
    Beatrice Dirty Store
    Posts: 0 ✭ Beatrice Dirty Store


    Leinster backs that have earned their first cap in the last 5 years

    Ian 'Home is where the heart is' Keatley 2009
    Fergus 'Ireland's latest hat trick scorer' McFadden got his first cap for Ireland in 2011.
    Felix 'True Blue' Jones 2011.
    Ian 'never mind got an offer from Toulouse, accepted an offer from Bordeaux!' Madigan got his first cap for ireland in 2013
    Robbie 'Leinster till I die' Henshaw 2013 :pac:
    James 'Life Began at Leinster' Downey 2013
    'Mysterious' Dave Kearney 2013


  • #2291
    salmocab
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,665 ✭✭✭✭salmocab


    I think Leinster have failed in that they are producing too many quality back rows. They are making Ulster look bad because they haven't produced one in a couple of years.
    Am I doing this right?


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  • #2292
    brokenhooker
    Closed Accounts Posts: 236 ✭✭brokenhooker


    CMOTDibbler wrote: »
    He has a point though. For a long time I've been saying that the Leinster academy is under resourced in relation to the available pool of players. I think it was in 2013 that the intake to the academy consisted of players solely drawn from the previous year's senior cup final.

    It's not feasible that the Leinster academy has the same number of players as Munster, Ulster or Connacht. It just doesn't make sense on any level. I've known of promising players who haven't made it through from the sub-academy because they've been injured for a protracted period.

    That's not to say that there'll be a steady stream of top class backs coming through if they expand it, but it looks to me as if it's heavily leaning towards recruiting whatever the need du jour is in the pro ranks rather than actually nurturing and producing talent.

    the academy has failed utterly to produce good quality backs, it's undeniable.

    Relying on a rugby league convert, a formerly retired great, a journeyman fullback to fill holes that the Leinster academy have been unable to fill.

    There remains a huge gap behind Sexton, no answer at scrumhalf so we have to sign some 3rd choice NZer and we had to poach Connacht's best player to fill the gap at 12. It's ringrose and nothing else sadly.


  • #2293
    brokenhooker
    Closed Accounts Posts: 236 ✭✭brokenhooker


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Leinster backs that have earned their first cap in the last 5 years

    Ian 'My heart belongs at home' Keatley 2009
    Fergus 'Ireland's latest hat trick scorer' McFadden got his first cap for Ireland in 2011.
    Felix 'True Blue' Jones 2011.
    Ian 'never mind got an offer from Toulouse, accepted an offer from Bordeaux!' Madigan got his first cap for ireland in 2013
    Robbie 'Leinster till I die' Henshaw 2013 :pac:
    James 'Life Began at Leinster' Downey 2013
    'Mysterious' Dave Kearney 2013

    you are relying grasping at straws if you are listing James Downey and Ian Keatley.

    Also the fact they got capped doesn't mean much, none were ever 1st choice and therefore anywhere decent at international level.


  • #2294
    Yeah_Right
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,204 ✭✭✭Yeah_Right


    I get the impression that even if Leinster fielded a backline of the quality of the ABs from last year's RWC, brokenhooker would still find something to complain about.


  • #2295
    awec
    Administrators Posts: 55,090 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    I had heard that the Leinster academy only takes in one player in any given position? Is that correct?


  • #2296
    brokenhooker
    Closed Accounts Posts: 236 ✭✭brokenhooker


    Yeah_Right wrote: »
    I get the impression that even if Leinster fielded a backline of the quality of the ABs from last year's RWC, brokenhooker would still find something to complain about.

    you'd be wrong there..

    I would however like to see an exciting backline with pace, skill and attacking edge.. sadly we are stuck with what the academy has produced and what we can afford.


  • #2297
    whatawaster
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,909 ✭✭✭✭whatawaster


    brokenhooker wrote: »
    McGrath, talented player who Leinster have failed to develop.

    Luke McGrath has just turned 23.

    It would have been nice for him to develop sooner, but he was unlucky to come through in a team with 2 established and experienced scrum halves, even if both of them have been on the decline.

    This has been a real breakthrough season for him and an Ireland call-up shouldn't be too far away.


  • #2298
    Buer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,258 ✭✭✭✭Buer


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Leinster backs that have earned their first cap in the last 5 years

    Ian 'Home is where the heart is' Keatley 2009
    Fergus 'Ireland's latest hat trick scorer' McFadden got his first cap for Ireland in 2011.
    Felix 'True Blue' Jones 2011.
    Ian 'never mind got an offer from Toulouse, accepted an offer from Bordeaux!' Madigan got his first cap for ireland in 2013
    Robbie 'Leinster till I die' Henshaw 2013 :pac:
    James 'Life Began at Leinster' Downey 2013
    'Mysterious' Dave Kearney 2013

    Motion to have James Downey struck from the list and disassociated from Leinster, please.


  • #2299
    Mahatma Geansai
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,668 ✭✭✭Mahatma Geansai


    As I did on the Munster thread, here is a brief breakdown of the Leinster squad for the weekend..

    19 of the Leinster 23 are Irish Qualified.
    15 of the Leinster 23 are from the academy/youth system.
    17 of the Leinster 23 are 30 or younger and the average age of the squad is 28.


  • #2300
    brokenhooker
    Closed Accounts Posts: 236 ✭✭brokenhooker


    whatawaster wrote: »
    Luke McGrath has just turned 23.

    It would have been nice for him to develop sooner, but he was unlucky to come through in a team with 2 established and experienced scrum halves, even if both of them have been on the decline.

    This has been a real breakthrough season for him and an Ireland call-up shouldn't be too far away.

    and yet he is on the bench behind a way off his peak Reddan and it's not a controversial call.


  • #2301
    salmocab
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,665 ✭✭✭✭salmocab


    brokenhooker wrote: »
    you'd be wrong there..

    I would however like to see an exciting backline with pace, skill and attacking edge.. sadly we are stuck with what the academy has produced and what we can afford.

    I agree that the back line isn't fantastic like a few years ago but why are you mentioning it now just after the team announcement? Who were you expecting to start? What changes would you make apart from at 9?


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  • #2302
    salmocab
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,665 ✭✭✭✭salmocab


    Mahatma Geansai wrote: »
    As I did on the Munster thread, here is a brief breakdown of the Leinster squad for the weekend..

    19 of the Leinster 23 are Irish Qualified.
    15 of the Leinster 23 are from the academy/youth system.
    17 of the Leinster 23 are 30 or younger and the average age of the squad is 28.

    I know I can just jump over there but could you post them together for comparison here.
    That seems a solid enough stat from an Irish POV


  • #2303
    whatawaster
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,909 ✭✭✭✭whatawaster


    brokenhooker wrote: »
    and yet he is on the bench behind a way off his peak Reddan and it's not a controversial call.

    Reddan is still a very good scrum half. I think McGrath is better and on an upward trajectory whereas Reddan is on a downward trajectory. But Reddan has his experience to call upon.

    There will be rotation between the two between now and the end of the season I have no doubt.


  • #2304
    Beatrice Dirty Store
    Posts: 0 ✭ Beatrice Dirty Store


    Buer wrote: »
    Motion to have James Downey struck from the list and disassociated from Leinster, please.

    we need all the numbers we can get.


  • #2305
    wise7
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 485 ✭✭wise7


    brokenhooker wrote: »
    the academy has failed utterly to produce good quality backs, it's undeniable.

    Relying on a rugby league convert, a formerly retired great, a journeyman fullback to fill holes that the Leinster academy have been unable to fill.

    There remains a huge gap behind Sexton, no answer at scrumhalf so we have to sign some 3rd choice NZer and we had to poach Connacht's best player to fill the gap at 12. It's ringrose and nothing else sadly.
    There are taleneted backs with serious potential in the Academy like Cian Kelleher, Adam Byrne and Ross Byrne. With the exception of Ringrose, Leinster do not provide young backs with opportunities to 'play up' off the bench and develop from the experience


  • #2306
    dub_skav
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,530 ✭✭✭dub_skav


    brokenhooker wrote: »
    They have a better backline currently when compared to Leinster.

    I remember watching Bundee Aki playing for the Connacht Under 18s and I said to me auld da - he will be a great player someday


  • #2307
    former total
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,536 ✭✭✭former total


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Leinster backs that have earned their first cap in the last 5 years

    Ian 'Home is where the heart is' Keatley 2009
    Fergus 'Ireland's latest hat trick scorer' McFadden got his first cap for Ireland in 2011.
    Felix 'True Blue' Jones 2011.
    Ian 'never mind got an offer from Toulouse, accepted an offer from Bordeaux!' Madigan got his first cap for ireland in 2013
    Robbie 'Leinster till I die' Henshaw 2013 :pac:
    James 'Life Began at Leinster' Downey 2013
    'Mysterious' Dave Kearney 2013

    Eh, hello?

    ian-madigan-noel-reid-and-james-cromble-2-390x285.jpg


  • #2308
    brokenhooker
    Closed Accounts Posts: 236 ✭✭brokenhooker


    dub_skav wrote: »
    I remember watching Bundee Aki playing for the Connacht Under 18s and I said to me auld da - he will be a great player someday

    you realise they rely on less NIQ backs than Leinster?

    and also that aki is much better than anyone leinster has at the moment.


  • #2309
    Mahatma Geansai
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,668 ✭✭✭Mahatma Geansai


    salmocab wrote: »
    I know I can just jump over there but could you post them together for comparison here.
    That seems a solid enough stat from an Irish POV

    22 of the Munster 23 are Irish Qualified.
    18 of the Munster 23 are from the academy/youth system.
    21 of the Munster 23 are 30 or younger and the average age of the squad is only 26.

    19 of the Leinster 23 are Irish Qualified.
    15 of the Leinster 23 are from the academy/youth system.
    17 of the Leinster 23 are 30 or younger and the average age of the squad is 28.

    That is how both squads compare. To me, it indicates that the Leinster academy may be underperforming when you compare it to its Munster counterpart; especially so when you compare the populations of both provinces.


  • #2310
    CMOTDibbler
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,833 ✭✭✭CMOTDibbler


    awec wrote: »
    I had heard that the Leinster academy only takes in one player in any given position? Is that correct?
    Not as far as I know. There are currently four centres in the academy which bears out what I've been saying about meeting a perceived need in the pro squad.


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  • #2311
    brokenhooker
    Closed Accounts Posts: 236 ✭✭brokenhooker


    Mahatma Geansai wrote: »
    22 of the Munster 23 are Irish Qualified.
    18 of the Munster 23 are from the academy/youth system.
    21 of the Munster 23 are 30 or younger and the average age of the squad is only 26.

    19 of the Leinster 23 are Irish Qualified.
    15 of the Leinster 23 are from the academy/youth system.
    17 of the Leinster 23 are 30 or younger and the average age of the squad is 28.

    That is how both squads compare. To me, it indicates that the Leinster academy may be underperforming when you compare it to its Munster counterpart; especially so when you compare the populations of both provinces.

    Tell us something we don't know. The Leinster academy has been incredibly overrated for years now.


This discussion has been closed.
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