General Rugby Discussion

CMOTDibbler · 30-03-2016 11:27AM

former total wrote: »

But this is, to my knowledge, the first time that anyone has been hauled in front of a World Rugby hearing having already been investigated by the organising tournament. Am I wrong? Jacques Potgieter got away with a fine and some "re-education" for a similar offence - where were World Rugby then?

At least Potgieter received a sanction. It might have been light, but action was taken and a message sent out that what he did wasn't acceptable. Marler got cited and then nothing. He was dropped for the next match but that was just lifting the carpet to sweep it away.

former total wrote: »

Any disciplinary process must have transparent and consistent criteria. Everyone is entitled to a presumption of innocence until the charge is proven. Neither of those seem to apply here.

WR are the governing body. They have the right to step in where they see the image of the sport damaged by a player or players. I'm not sure what's not transparent about the process. He'll get a hearing and he'll get to present his case. That WR want to look at it and adjudicate on it is by no means a tacit conclusion of guilt.

former total wrote: »

The fact that Joe Marler might be a bit of a prat or even a bit of a racist doesn't deprive him of his rights to fair treatment. A decent barrister will savage this hearing.

Again, I don't see how this follows. He clearly used a racial slur, he was cited and the charge dismissed. In the meantime, he was (possibly) punished by being dropped for the next game. There's something wrong there surely?

errlloyd · 30-03-2016 11:31AM

pickarooney wrote: »

This all presupposes that what he said actually constitutes racism, something that nobody seems to have any proof, evidence or relevant opinion on.

World Rugby will need a lot more than vague interpretations of some as yet unquoted law to make a case against him. In their position how would you make a clear distinction between banter (posh English ****, ginger twat, taff prick) and racism?

Apologies Pickarooney. I forgot to cite my posts.

The case law that gives Travellers protection under equality legislation in England and Wales is O'Leary & Others v Punch Retail & Others Westminster County Court 29 August 2000 Unreported. The case involved the denial of entry into pubs on grounds deemed racist. The defendant argued that as travelers weren't a race it could not be construed as racist. They lost.

Travellers in Northern Ireland were already protected specifically under the Race Relations (Northern Ireland) Order 1997.

He [Judge Goldsein] said that to exclude Irish travellers from protection under the Race Relations Act would leave three glaring anomalies - the appeal court had decided Romany Gypsies were covered by the legislation and the two groups shared many characteristics; it would fly in the face of the broad provisions against discrimination provided by the European convention on human rights and the group already enjoyed protection in Ulster under the Northern Ireland Race Relations Order.

Quin_Dub · 30-03-2016 11:33AM

pickarooney wrote: »

This all presupposes that what he said actually constitutes racism, something that nobody seems to have any proof, evidence or relevant opinion on.

World Rugby will need a lot more than vague interpretations of some as yet unquoted law to make a case against him. In their position how would you make a clear distinction between banter (posh English ****, ginger twat, taff prick) and racism?

That's a key point...

When certain terms are used (on or off the rugby field) does the use of those terms automatically constitute "racism"..

I'm not convinced that it does to be honest...

It's certainly rude , un-sportsman like etc. and on that basis could be subject to censure.. but it it racism?

CMOTDibbler · 30-03-2016 11:34AM

pickarooney wrote: »

This all presupposes that what he said actually constitutes racism, something that nobody seems to have any proof, evidence or relevant opinion on.

Travellers and Gypsies are recognised as ethnic minorities in the UK and protected by law.

The Metropolitan Police were investigated for similar racial abuse on a facebook page.

irishbucsfan · 30-03-2016 11:38AM

pickarooney wrote: »

This all presupposes that what he said actually constitutes racism, something that nobody seems to have any proof, evidence or relevant opinion on.

World Rugby will need a lot more than vague interpretations of some as yet unquoted law to make a case against him. In their position how would you make a clear distinction between banter (posh English ****, ginger twat, taff prick) and racism?

What do you mean "vague interpretations of some as yet unquoted law"? Are you referring to rugby's law (10.4)? Or the UK's law (2010 Equality Act which )? There's nothing vague about either in regards to what Marler said. The minimum sanction is supposed to be 4 weeks, and that would be if this was considered a Low End offense, but I'm not sure exactly how they could categorise different forms of racism into different tiers of abuse.

With regards to what Lee is reported to have said to Marler, none of that was really reported at the time, that's all come out now a long time afterwards. Not sure if it's in the match report or not.

pickarooney · 30-03-2016 12:08PM

Having read the equality act from top to bottom, I found nothing to indicate that simply referring to a person by a group identifier constitutes a breach.
There is definitely nothing to support any claim that the word itself, context apart, is a slur, an insult, pejorative or racially loaded. To even suggest that it is is itself an insult to proud Gypsies. Actual Gypsies in any case and those of other ethnicities who choose to self identify as such and use the term with pride.

Imagine if someone told you that 'Irish' was a swear word now!

Lee was not denied a job, entry to a premises, the chance to run for elected office, the right to marry, access to a hovercraft or any of the other things stipulated in the act.

Simply saying that some is 'protected' and on a list is meaningless. He's not a corncrake.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO · 30-03-2016 12:16PM

pickarooney wrote: »

Having read the equality act from top to bottom, I found nothing to indicate that simply referring to a person by a group identifier constitutes a breach.
There is definitely nothing to support any claim that the word itself, context apart, is a slur, an insult, pejorative or racially loaded. To even suggest that it is is itself an insult to proud Gypsies. Actual Gypsies in any case and those of other ethnicities who choose to self identify as such and use the term with pride.

Imagine if someone told you that 'Irish' was a swear word now!

Lee was not denied a job, entry to a premises, the chance to run for elected office, the right to marry, access to a hovercraft or any of the other things stipulated in the act.

Simply saying that some is 'protected' and on a list is meaningless. He's not a corncrake.

I think you'r reaching here. Of course the context matters. If Marler had gone up to Lee during a break in play and said "You're a gypsy, right? That culture fascinates me, tell me more" there wouldn't be an issue. Saying "get back in your caravan, gypsy boy" is obviously a completely different thing.

I do think people wanting a ban are going to be disappointed. The 6 Nations could have avoided all this by just fining him, even if it was a suspended fine dependent on good behaviour for the rest of the season. Some would have said it was just a PR thing then too but at least it would have acknowledged that what Marler did/said is not something they'll put up with and it would have been forgotten about by now.

irishbucsfan · 30-03-2016 12:16PM

pickarooney wrote: »

Having read the equality act from top to bottom, I found nothing to indicate that simply referring to a person by a group identifier constitutes a breach.
There is definitely nothing to support any claim that the word itself, context apart, is a slur, an insult, pejorative or racially loaded. To even suggest that it is is itself an insult to proud Gypsies. Actual Gypsies in any case and those of other ethnicities who choose to self identify as such and use the term with pride.

Imagine if someone told you that 'Irish' was a swear word now!

Lee was not denied a job, entry to a premises, the chance to run for elected office, the right to marry, access to a hovercraft or any of the other things stipulated in the act.

Simply saying that some is 'protected' and on a list is meaningless. He's not a corncrake.

Noone is trying to put Marler behind bars.

The laws that they're supposed to be abiding by on the pitch however absolutely do state, in no uncertain terms whatsoever, that abuse based on ethnic origin is completely illegal and there are clear penalties for it ranging from 4 to 52 weeks.

sydthebeat · 30-03-2016 12:19PM

pickarooney wrote: »

Simply saying that some is 'protected' and on a list is meaningless. He's not a corncrake.

BEST QUOTE EVER!!!

:D:D:D

TICKLE_ME_ELMO · 30-03-2016 12:31PM

sydthebeat wrote: »

BEST QUOTE EVER!!! :D:D:D

Wrong person though.... Samson Lee is not a corncrake.

Although, Joe Marler is also not a corncrake, so...

sydthebeat · 30-03-2016 12:31PM

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

Wrong person though.... Samson Lee is not a corncrake.

Although, Joe Marler is also not a corncrake, so...

yep

i got that one completely wrong LOL

neelia11 · 30-03-2016 12:41PM

2017 ERCC final in murrayfield

pickarooney · 30-03-2016 01:25PM

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Noone is trying to put Marler behind bars.

The laws that they're supposed to be abiding by on the pitch however absolutely do state, in no uncertain terms whatsoever, that abuse based on ethnic origin is completely illegal and there are clear penalties for it ranging from 4 to 52 weeks.

If you're ignoring the alleged abuse by Lee you also have to ignore the alleged 'caravan' remark as both were only brought up in the last week. Fair's fair. The six nations were not asked to rule based on either comment as far as I know.

If they were, Lee would need to be questioned as English is as much an ethnicity as Gypsy (with a capital G).

30-03-2016 01:29PM

Andy McGeady with a decent article on the matter of the IRB stepping in on 6Nations territory.

http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/international/time-for-world-rugby-to-put-some-order-on-disciplinary-code-1.2591309

We await the result of the Marler hearing. Perhaps two weeks reduced to one, based on his laudable half-time apology to Samson Lee. Perhaps a few pence for rugby’s poorbox and some social education. Then the game’s custodians might move on to sorting out the business of Laurent Sempéré, lest chaos await.

wp_rathead · 30-03-2016 01:30PM

neelia11 wrote: »

2017 ERCC final in murrayfield

Ugh
Was hoping for somewhere in Italy

irishbucsfan · 30-03-2016 01:40PM

pickarooney wrote: »

If you're ignoring the alleged abuse by Lee you also have to ignore the alleged 'caravan' remark as both were only brought up in the last week. Fair's fair. The six nations were not asked to rule based on either comment as far as I know.

If they were, Lee would need to be questioned as English is as much an ethnicity as Gypsy (with a capital G).

Maybe the 'caravan' remark won't be brought up in the hearing. Maybe both will be as evidence, but ultimately I'd imagine it'll only be the original issue that they'll pass judgement on.

Yeah_Right · 30-03-2016 04:52PM

TICKLE_ME_ELMO wrote: »

Wrong person though.... Samson Lee is not a corncrake.

Although, Joe Marler is also not a corncrake, so...

Excuse the ignorance but what's a corncrake? I've never heard that word before.

TICKLE_ME_ELMO · 30-03-2016 04:53PM

Yeah_Right wrote: »

Excuse the ignorance but what's a corncrake? I've never heard that word before.

Very rare bird. Used to be widespread, but intense farming practices have led to the destruction of their natural habitats and nesting sites while they're still nesting and they're now very rare and protected.

Buer · 30-03-2016 05:35PM

Legalities of racism? Ornithology? Athletic pursuits of wizardry?

The rugby forum has you covered.

irishbucsfan · 30-03-2016 05:43PM

Buer wrote: »

Legalities of racism? Ornithology? Athletic pursuits of wizardry?

The rugby forum has you covered.

Quick! He's trying to bring it back on topic! Back to the Ireland thread!

sheep? · 31-03-2016 08:34PM

http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/young-muslim-woman-to-play-rugby-while-wearing-her-hijab-1.2592337

A lady gets the go ahead to wear a hijab while playing rugby by the IRFU.

Whatever about religious/feminist/safety issues.....I'd say she'll be like an oven in it by 80 mins.

Pink Fairy · 31-03-2016 08:39PM

sheep? wrote: »

http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/young-muslim-woman-to-play-rugby-while-wearing-her-hijab-1.2592337

A lady gets the go ahead to wear a hijab while playing rugby by the IRFU.

Whatever about religious/feminist/safety issues.....I'd say she'll be like an oven in it by 80 mins.

Would tomorrow's date have anything to do with this story

sydthebeat · 31-03-2016 08:40PM

Excellent for her.

31-03-2016 08:44PM

Is it an UnderArmour Hijab?

former total · 31-03-2016 08:54PM

Pink Fairy wrote: »

Would tomorrow's date have anything to do with this story

F**king hell.

No, it does not.

mfceiling · 31-03-2016 10:37PM

Oh dear. Major shìt about to hit the fan.

Looks like we've found Ireland's fastest player and it's not Zebo...

http://www.sportsjoe.ie/rugby/ireland-rugby-fastest-player/72222?utm_source=twitter&utm_campaign=onsite_share

.ak · 31-03-2016 11:07PM

mfceiling wrote: »

Oh dear. Major shìt about to hit the fan.

Looks like we've found Ireland's fastest player and it's not Zebo...

http://www.sportsjoe.ie/rugby/ireland-rugby-fastest-player/72222?utm_source=twitter&utm_campaign=onsite_share

Fastest Ulster player, not Irish.

Still slow compared to McFadden :cool:

TICKLE_ME_ELMO · 31-03-2016 11:32PM

.ak wrote: »

Fastest Ulster Edinburgh player, not Irish.

Still slow compared to McFadden :cool:

FYP.

Stheno · 01-04-2016 12:36AM

sheep? wrote: »

http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/young-muslim-woman-to-play-rugby-while-wearing-her-hijab-1.2592337

A lady gets the go ahead to wear a hijab while playing rugby by the IRFU.

Whatever about religious/feminist/safety issues.....I'd say she'll be like an oven in it by 80 mins.

There was a female Muslim soccer player who plays wearing the hijab who won something in the people of the year awards this year for setting up a team.

http://www.sari.ie/fadhila-hajji-receives-person-of-the-year-award/

irishbucsfan · 02-04-2016 12:54PM

https://twitter.com/InfernoProTV/status/716212621695983617

Another player sent off for a stupid challenge on Alex Goode. He's an unlucky chap. It's a wonder he even goes up for them at this stage!

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