When aren't you a Catholic?

RDM_83 again · 30-03-2016 10:11PM

_Xavi_ wrote: »

There should be the question "Do you believe in any Gods?"

By the Old Gods and the New!

Zen65 · 30-03-2016 10:12PM

When you no longer believe in any one of the following:

The eucharist is the physical body of Christ
Jesus Christ was the son incarnate of the one true God, and was also God
The pope cannot be wrong on matters of religious doctrine (even though popes may disagree)
The pope is God's representative on earth
Mary was the only person born without original sin. She became pregnant with Jesus while a virgin.

In fact if you do not believe in an interventionist god you are an atheist, even if you believe in the possibility of a god or gods, or you are a 'spiritual' person. A deist believes in a god, but does not believe that god intervenes in life here on earth in any way. A deist can therefore be atheist.

A great many people that I've met who call themselves catholic actually do not believe that the god they believe in has an interest in life on earth, and as such they are more correctly termed atheist, although they do not associate themselves with such a label.

wnolan1992 · 30-03-2016 10:17PM

_Xavi_ wrote: »

There should be the question "Do you believe in any Gods?"

This question should be after the religion one.

If you've ticked a religion in the first question, then select "No" to this question, your form should automatically burst into flames because you can't be trusted. :P

Elijah Bitter Hemp wrote: »

The census form is supposed to be completed by the head of the household, who must also sign a declaration that he/she has supplied correct information. Individual children in the house are not permitted to complete portions of the form.

How can the head of the household provide accurate information if they don't consult their children on the answers they're providing?

Zen65 · 30-03-2016 10:23PM

RDM_83 again wrote: »

If you've been baptised and you think your Catholic both you and the Church (and if you fill in the census the government) think your Catholic, you might be a really sh-t Catholic but it doesn't change anything.

So, if you were adopted by an African American family and believe you're black, is it correct to say you're black, even if you're clearly not?

Many people think of themselves as catholic despite not agreeing with vast tranches of the catholic doctrine. These people usually have just not thought about what it means to describe themselves as catholic, or have not considered the possibility that their beliefs are explicitly contrary to catholic beliefs. They may just like the idea of 'belonging' to an association of people that they've always associated themselves with.

The current campaign by humanists and others is simply calling on people to reflect on what it is they truly believe, and to declare it.

RDM_83 again · 30-03-2016 10:30PM

Zen65 wrote: »

When you no longer believe in any one of the following:
The eucharist is the physical body of Christ

Jesus Christ was the son incarnate of the one true God, and was also God

The pope cannot be wrong on matters of religious doctrine (even though popes may disagree)

The pope is God's representative on earth

Mary was the only person born without original sin. She became pregnant with Jesus while a virgin.

In fact if you do not believe in an interventionist god you are an atheist, even if you believe in the possibility of a god or gods, or you are a 'spiritual' person. A deist believes in a god, but does not believe that god intervenes in life here on earth in any way. A deist can therefore be atheist.

A great many people that I've met who call themselves catholic actually do not believe that the god they believe in has an interest in life on earth, and as such they are more correctly termed atheist, although they do not associate themselves with such a label.

If you don't believe these things you can still be a Catholic AFAIK, your simply a bad/lapsed or heretical Catholic.
Even if your Excommunicated your still a Catholic, even the people that were put to death in the middle ages were still "Catholic".

Someone with a better understanding of theology might correct me on this but after Baptism I'm not sure there is anything you can do that stops you being a Catholic. Its been a long time since the Church was burning people and they had a monopoly on Power back then so I think its a central point of the faith rather than a reaction to atheism.

I'm not saying people who aren't practicing catholics and don't consider themselves catholics should have to put it down in the census, what I am saying is if your baptised and you choose to put down Catholic its your right and your also not being dishonest doing so.

Zen65 · 30-03-2016 10:36PM

RDM_83 again wrote: »

If you don't believe these things you can still be a Catholic AFAIK, your simply a bad/lapsed or heretical Catholic.

The church considers anyone baptised to be a catholic because they have not sought permission to leave the faith, but that does not actually make them a catholic. If you do not believe in the core principles of the faith then you cannot simply be a 'lapsed catholic', any more than you can be a 'lapsed virgin' once you have engaged in coitus. I do not believe the OP was asking about what the RC Church believed

RDM_83 again wrote: »

Even if your Excommunicated your still a Catholic

No, you're not. That's what excommunication means - you've been rejected by the catholic church

RDM_83 again · 30-03-2016 10:42PM

Zen65 wrote: »

The church considers anyone baptised to be a catholic because they have not sought permission to leave the faith, but that does not actually make them a catholic. If you do not believe in the core principles of the faith then you cannot simply be a 'lapsed catholic', any more than you can be a 'lapsed virgin' once you have engaged in coitus. I do not believe the OP was asking about what the RC Church believed

Who makes them a Catholic then if them stating they are Catholic and the Church agreeing that they are Catholic isn't enough.
This is exactly what I was talking about people trying to define other peoples identities for them in a way they normally wouldn't dare for any other aspect of identity (or likely any other belief system apart from Catholicism)

kneemos · 30-03-2016 10:45PM

Zen65 wrote: »

The church considers anyone baptised to be a catholic because they have not sought permission to leave the faith, but that does not actually make them a catholic. If you do not believe in the core principles of the faith then you cannot simply be a 'lapsed catholic', any more than you can be a 'lapsed virgin' once you have engaged in coitus. I do not believe the OP was asking about what the RC Church believed

No, you're not. That's what excommunication means - you've been rejected by the catholic church

They need to seriously rethink their claim of one point whatever billion Catholics in that case.

Zen65 · 30-03-2016 10:47PM

RDM_83 again wrote: »

Who makes them a Catholic then if them stating they are Catholic and the Church agreeing that they are Catholic isn't enough.
This is exactly what I was talking about people trying to define other peoples identities for them in a way they normally wouldn't dare for any other aspect of identity (or likely any other belief system apart from Catholicism)

If I want to say I'm a pilot, and I buy a pilot's licence, I'm still not a real pilot if I can't actually fly a plane. Words have actual meaning; no matter what a person may wish to say about themselves, if it's untrue it is untrue.

Don't believe in the story of Jesus? You're not a catholic.

Zen65 · 30-03-2016 10:48PM

kneemos wrote: »

They need to seriously rethink their claim of one point whatever billion Catholics in that case.

What would be their motivation to do that? More 'members' means more influence, so an honest assessment is not in their interest.

Valetta · 30-03-2016 10:49PM

Zen65 wrote: »

Don't believe in the story of Jesus? You're not a catholic.

I wonder what gives you the authority to make that statement?

Zen65 · 30-03-2016 10:51PM

Valetta wrote: »

I wonder what gives you the authority to make that statement?

The dictionary.

And the teaching of the catholic church which sets out the requirement of members to believe in the core principles.

RDM_83 again · 30-03-2016 10:54PM

Zen65 wrote: »

No, you're not. That's what excommunication means - you've been rejected by the catholic church

If you believe that I think your probably a lot less well informed about Catholicism than you think.

http://www.dummies.com/how-to/content/catholicism-excommunication-and-other-penalties.html

Valetta · 30-03-2016 10:55PM

Zen65 wrote: »

The dictionary.

And the teaching of the catholic church which sets out the requirement of members to believe in the core principles.

I think you might need to revisit your sources.

Asaiah · 30-03-2016 11:05PM

I'm a Christian, Catholicism has too many practices that don't fit in with the Lord's teachings in my opinion. However I have no issue with being counted with my brothers and sisters in Christ whatever their denomination.

Zen65 · 30-03-2016 11:14PM

RDM_83 again wrote: »

If you believe that I think your probably a lot less well informed about Catholicism than you think.

http://www.dummies.com/how-to/content/catholicism-excommunication-and-other-penalties.html

The dummies guide isn't always the best source of information.

https://carm.org/questions/about-doctrine/what-excommunication

Canon Law, as set out by the Holy See, defines excommunication in article 1331 as being depriving the excommunicated from participating in or benefiting from any catholic sacrament (including sacred burial on death).

Of course excommunication is reversible, because all catholic laws provide for repentance, but during the term of excommunication the catholic church will not accept you as a member of their congregation. Describing such a person as still being a catholic is a hollow and meaningless assertion. If you're in prison, you are a prisoner, even if the warden chooses to describe you as a free man.

One eyed Jack · 30-03-2016 11:15PM

Zen65 wrote: »

So, if you were adopted by an African American family and believe you're black, is it correct to say you're black, even if you're clearly not?

The colour of your skin is a physical trait. Spirituality and religiosity aren't physical traits. Your analogy is as flawed as me pointing out to someone that they can't call themselves homosexual if they're not having all the gay sex, but then that too can get flipped on it's head when you come across a man having sex with loads of men and he still self-identifies as heterosexual, he's just on the down-low.

Dictionary definitions are never the best way to interpret language and the meaning and context of words and ideas. Anyone with so much as a passing familiarity with self-expression would understand that much.

Many people think of themselves as catholic despite not agreeing with vast tranches of the catholic doctrine. These people usually have just not thought about what it means to describe themselves as catholic, or have not considered the possibility that their beliefs are explicitly contrary to catholic beliefs. They may just like the idea of 'belonging' to an association of people that they've always associated themselves with.

The current campaign by humanists and others is simply calling on people to reflect on what it is they truly believe, and to declare it.

Yeah and you know who else likes to tell people what to do?

We usually tell them where to go and all.

Jayop · 30-03-2016 11:23PM

Asaiah wrote: »

I'm a Christian, Catholicism has too many practices that don't fit in with the Lord's teachings in my opinion.

Very true. Jesus was a lover not a hater and a lot of the churches laws are those of haters.

Parachutes · 30-03-2016 11:29PM

Well I would consider myself a Catholic in the sense that I do have faith and generally agree with it's mission and moral message.

On the other hand I'm a terrible Catholic in the sense that I don't go to mass/observe the sacraments due to the scandals that have racked the church and out of my own sinful laziness.

I also voted for the SSM referendum in open defiance of the church because I believe in the distinction between civil and religious marriage. Still conflicted on what to put down.

Permabear · 30-03-2016 11:30PM

This post has been deleted.

Zen65 · 30-03-2016 11:30PM

Asaiah wrote: »

I'm a Christian, Catholicism has too many practices that don't fit in with the Lord's teachings in my opinion. However I have no issue with being counted with my brothers and sisters in Christ whatever their denomination.

Fair enough. Christianity is not 'owned' by a religious order, so anyone who believes in the teachings of Christ, and in the divinity of Christ, is correct to describe themselves as a Christian, regardless of their practices and other beliefs. (Of course you can't be both Christian and atheist, regardless of how comfortable you may feel with both labels. Words do in fact have actual meanings.)

The same is not true for organised religions which have doctrines / dogma of teaching.

Zen65 · 30-03-2016 11:34PM

Parachutes wrote: »

On the other hand I'm a terrible Catholic in the sense that I don't go to mass/observe the sacraments due to the scandals that have racked the church and out of my own sinful laziness.

I don't think that takes you anywhere near the title of terrible Catholic. Hitler was a terrible Catholic. Given what we know about what the church and some of its members have done in the name of their church over the decades you're almost a saint by comparison.

Jayop · 30-03-2016 11:53PM

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

No-one would expect that.

mansize · 31-03-2016 12:01AM

Jayop wrote: »

No-one would expect that.

Except they gave notice (Qi fact!)

qo2cj1dsne8y4k · 31-03-2016 12:28AM

I don't know what I am. I believe there's God, and heaven and Angels. I take comfort in believing that we get to be together again when we die, that when you lose somebody it isn't forever. It probably sounds like a fairy story but I don't care. It makes me feel better, and during really dark times it was probably the only real comfort that I had - that I wasn't TOO far away from being with someone I lost.

That said, if God exists, he's an asshole. The God my dad believed in (Catholic) wouldn't have taken my mom when she was only 44 or left my dad to suffer as much as he did in his final days - that God is a sadistic asshole. Children getting cancer, awful things out of people's control happening to good people. I'm not sure I want to be associated with a God like that.
A God that would think you're a sinner for not going to mass, a God that wants you to abuse your body by not using contraception, or a God that hates gay people but forgives paedophiles and rapists once they say the magic word.

What I take from religion is don't be a dick. Be nice to other people. Don't abuse kids. Don't cover for someone who abuses kids. Don't tell a woman you know nothing about what she can and cannot do with her body.

beach_walker · 31-03-2016 12:33AM

As someone who marked down "No Religion" in 2011 and is now a practicing Catholic, I do smile when seeing atheists telling people who is and isn't a Catholic.

marienbad · 31-03-2016 12:43AM

never, and happier for it .

Lyaiera · 31-03-2016 01:05AM

Zen65 wrote: »

I don't think that takes you anywhere near the title of terrible Catholic. Hitler was a terrible Catholic. Given what we know about what the church and some of its members have done in the name of their church over the decades you're almost a saint by comparison.

And those priests who got to rape children are still considered good Catholics by the church. So that's the bar being set.

Even if you've raped a child, you can still consider yourself Catholic. Missing mass every Sunday for thirty years is no biggy.

One eyed Jack · 31-03-2016 01:15AM

Lyaiera wrote: »

And those priests who got to rape children are still considered good Catholics by the church. So that's the bar being set.

Well that's a gross misrepresentation.

Even if you've raped a child, you can still consider yourself Catholic. Missing mass every Sunday for thirty years is no biggy.

A person can consider themselves anything they want. It doesn't follow that other people necessarily have to agree with them.

Lyaiera · 31-03-2016 01:17AM

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Well that's a gross misrepresentation.

I'm misrepresenting all those parish priests that were moved to other parishes after they raped children?

When aren't you a Catholic?

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