Equal right - Losing it's balance in favour of women?

steddyeddy · 23-03-2016 10:51AM

Electric Sheep wrote: »

No, most people are aware that men's position in society has mostly to do with the Old Boys Network.

Wibbs beat me to it but do you not think this affects men too?

Ice Maiden · 23-03-2016 10:52AM

lawlolawl wrote: »

So you don't need feminism or any adjustments to the current state of equality then.

You are doing fine already.

I would agree. The only concern for us imo in the western world is hatred of/sexual denigration of women (and abortion here but I think abortion is more than just a women's issue) which can be seen by posts/thanks on this thread. A minority for sure, but we should not be expected just to get over it and it is not feminazi to object to it. Otherwise I cannot relate to most feminism.
Very same for men when misandry occurs.

Wibbs · 23-03-2016 10:57AM

tritium wrote: »

BTW at the point where women first got the vote nearly half of the male population also wasn't eligible to vote, including many who had put their lives on the line in the war. Seriously, is anyone going to tell me that that men who came back from the first world war to low paid jobs and no vote were priveliged next to the middle class suffragettes? Is your average middle class college educated female graduate really oppressed next to the average working class inner city male, even before I factor in the biases in the educational system against male students?

Exactly. It is almost inevitable when this subject comes up that "feminist" thinking points out the men within the elites of society(past and present) and compares them to the lot of the average woman in society. Ignoring the average man of course. As things stand now in the West and in Ireland it is easily argued that women not men are the "privileged" gender.

The more I see if some if this stuff the more I have to conclude its completely detached itself from the real world most of us inhabit to trip out on a pity party of victimhood.

That's the major problem I have with modern feminism, it is the Church of the Blessed Victim and its devil is the patriarchy/men. It makes out that women are weak of emotion, easily "triggered" and must be protected from the big bad world of men. Oh why can't we all be fluffy.

How things used to be… For example the Suffragettes lobbied for the right to be hanged in capital crimes, just as men were. Yep. They were looking for actual equality with the responsibilities as well as rights. These days too many of their great granddaughters actually question whether women should even be in prison at all, because patriarchy. Our own Ivana Bacik has come out and suggested gender profiling in sentencing and guess where it's heavily skewed? Even in sexual encounters you see this. Man and woman are drunk. They have sex. He is responsible for his agency, but he is also responsible for her agency too. All the rights, as few of the responsibilities as possible. Cake and eat it time. I'd be proud to call myself a Suffragette, but call me a feminist at your peril.

23-03-2016 10:58AM

One aspect not being mentioned is the fact women are the one who have the babies and a majority have more than one. The years of starting families and careers taking off around around the same time so naturally with women taking significant amounts of time off in maternity leave etc they are not going to progress as fast as men or they might have a bit of a disadvantage going for a job because lets face it when some people go to the effort to hire someone they don't want risking them taking a nearly a year off so you have to go and hire someone else and train them etc (not saying it's right but you can see why people do it). Women are also far more likely to quit work to childmind so again while they may have promising careers they leave them aside to stay at home far more often than men.

These things are nothing to do with rights or unequal opportunities its just the natural cycle of things when women become mothers.

newport2 · 23-03-2016 11:12AM

tritium wrote: »

Wait, what's this men's position in society I keep hearing about? I don't have access to an old boys network, so how does it work for me? How does it work for the disporportionate numbers of male homeless and suicides? Old boy network too? Is it possible that the little success I've had in life might just be down to working my ass off, and that, much like thattequilagirl, no one actually *gave* me anything because I was a man or any other reason- you know, maybe when I, a man, beat out male and female candidates at interview it was actually on merit and not another patriarchal conspiracy

Tbh lots of this male privelige stuff reads like the whining of a spoilt child. Some man has more than me and I want it waah! It doesn't matter that many men have, and always had less, that's conveniently ignored.

BTW at the point where women first got the vote nearly half of the male population also wasn't eligible to vote, including many who had put their lives on the line in the war. Seriously, is anyone going to tell me that that men who came back from the first world war to low paid jobs and no vote were priveliged next to the middle class suffragettes? Is your average middle class college educated female graduate really oppressed next to the average working class inner city male, even before I factor in the biases in the educational system against male students?

The more I see if some if this stuff the more I have to conclude its completely detached itself from the real world most of us inhabit to trip out on a pity party of victimhood. You know, the real world where we all get the bad end of the deal at times but rarely because 'the other' is either actively or passively oppressing us.

I think the way things have gone is not in women's favour. It provides a get-out clause which if used damages things long term.

My wife did not get a promotion she went for a couple of years ago. Naturally she was disappointed. We had a few of her friends over for dinner that night and one of them continually fed her "It's not your fault", " Jobs for the boys", "Everything is so much more difficult for women" for a lot of the evening. Eventually her other friend had enough and took my wife by the scruff of the neck (not literally of course) and told her not to listen to that BS, that life was full of setbacks for men and women, that 3 of the others who didn't get the job either were men - this was life, not sexism - and that she was more than good enough and if she pressed on her time would come. Thankfully my wife listened to the latter and has been promoted several times since. I remember thinking that if she'd listened to her first friend or if the second friend had a similar world view, how easy it would have been for her to take a "woe is me" stance and sit back and blame the old boys network or some other excuse. BTW, the first friend has being doing the same job for years forever moaning she hasn't progressed, her second friend is a director of a household name company.

seamus · 23-03-2016 11:14AM

Jairo Fit Tenor wrote: »

These things are nothing to do with rights or unequal opportunities its just the natural cycle of things when women become mothers.

Potentially yes, but not really. Maternity leave is a legal construct. And in fact it's mandatory for a certain amount of time.

If there was no maternity leave, this inequality would be less obvious because women who wanted children and a career would take very short leave before returning to work. That would be the "natural cycle" of things.

But that too would be madness, because it would be detrimental to society in the long term. So you need maternity leave, but you'd need to level the playing field?

In comes paternity leave. A notion that not only benefits men (new fathers want to be able to stay home as much as new mothers do), but also does as much as possible to "level" the playing field. Now the only people with the "advantage" are those who never take any parental leave - but this applies for both men & women, and not just men.

RDM_83 again · 23-03-2016 11:16AM

thattequilagirl wrote: »

And here's the kicker, for daring to say this, I'll be labeled a feminazi who just needs to get laid.

I don't think the vast majority of men would say that about what you describe, if you demanded preferential treatment or complained that that the patriarchy is holding you back would.

I am sure most of the people being critical of feminism in UK/USA recognise the need for it in somewhere like Pakistan.

Disliking 4th wave feminism doesn't tell you anything about how someone feels about women or women's rights, I mean the current wave of activists despises some of the prominent figures from the previous generation, does that mean that those that disliked that wave of feminism at the time were actually "better" than those that were part of the movement.

23-03-2016 11:28AM

seamus wrote: »

Potentially yes, but not really. Maternity leave is a legal construct. And in fact it's mandatory for a certain amount of time.

If there was no maternity leave, this inequality would be less obvious because women who wanted children and a career would take very short leave before returning to work. That would be the "natural cycle" of things.

But that too would be madness, because it would be detrimental to society in the long term. So you need maternity leave, but you'd need to level the playing field?

In comes paternity leave. A notion that not only benefits men (new fathers want to be able to stay home as much as new mothers do), but also does as much as possible to "level" the playing field. Now the only people with the "advantage" are those who never take any parental leave - but this applies for both men & women, and not just men.

Just to say I fully agree with maternity leave it's very needed and very important for the mother and the child.

Without it though I think things would go the other way and more women would quit work altogether rather than go back quicker and thus back to the days of giving up your career once children come along (which in itself is not wrong if it's what people want to do by choice).

As for paternity leave, I think it's only fair the playing field was levelled however I can't see much of an uptake on it unless it's significantly more financially beneficial for the woman to get back to work sooner or other reasons like that, the women being a teacher and giving birth at the start of the summer so being off anyway so the man taking paternity leave would be another very nice use of it. As at the end of the day the mother needs the time off to recover, breast feeding will be happening for the first one or two anyway etc.

seamus · 23-03-2016 11:37AM

Jairo Fit Tenor wrote: »

As at the end of the day the mother needs the time off to recover, breast feeding will be happening for the first one or two anyway etc.

Maternity leave is "time off", bless :pac:

I'm only half-joking there really. I think your belief that use of paternity leave will only be down to financial considerations is pretty naive. The first 3 months of a new child are tough. Going into work is actually "time off" from a newborn, not the other way around. But as the father it's actually storing up problems because you get home, you're knackered because you've been up half the night, your wife is knackered, the house is a mess and the dinner needs making. You'd have been better off at home all day.

With the next one(s) if I had the opportunity to take 3 months paternity leave, I would be all over that sh1t. Financial and career concerns come a very distant second to family.

This is the same for a lot of people I know. Would happily take a 6-12 month drop in salary for the opportunity to spend more time at home in those early months.

thattequilagirl · 23-03-2016 11:40AM

lawlolawl wrote: »

So you don't need feminism or any adjustments to the current state of equality then.

You are doing fine already.

No, on a personal level I don't need any support on account of being a woman. I'm still a feminist on account of the fact that many/most women aren't as fortunate. I'd like to see more balance in government, corporate life, and parenting. Just because things are going fine for me does not mean the movement no longer needs to exist.

steddyeddy · 23-03-2016 11:42AM

thattequilagirl wrote: »

No, on a personal level I don't need any support on account of being a woman. I'm still a feminist on account of the fact that many/most women aren't as fortunate. I'd like to see more balance in government, corporate life, and parenting. Just because things are going fine for me does not mean the movement no longer needs to exist.

Do you not think socioeconomic status play determines your fortune to a far greater extent?

silverharp · 23-03-2016 11:53AM

thattequilagirl wrote: »

No, on a personal level I don't need any support on account of being a woman. I'm still a feminist on account of the fact that many/most women aren't as fortunate. I'd like to see more balance in government, corporate life, and parenting. Just because things are going fine for me does not mean the movement no longer needs to exist.

How do you expect more balancing in parenting , a lot of women seek out men that have better jobs and higher incomes than they do so its natural for the lower earner to take time off. And any mothers that I know that are well paid like doctors have full time nannies so essentially have outsourced child minding.
I don't see any one size fits all solution here.

Ice Maiden · 23-03-2016 11:56AM

Irishcrx wrote: »

Just a conversation that popped up recently when out with friends and I guess something that has been on my mind for a while now as I watch differant friends, situations etc.

Has radical feminism and a push for equal rights gained so much momentum , pressure in the press , the workplace , social media that it has actually now swung the other way and it is men that are looking at oppression?

A couple of scenario's swing to mind , the company I work for have had several pushes to be seen to be an equal opportunity employer , which they are , however this also included women in positions of ppwer (IE Unit leaders and Directors) they have often appointed women to these positions to make up their numbers balance while more qualified men were turned down for the job in favour of the news letter saying we have met the European quota - This isn't right.

Single father rights - Or lack there of, absolute joke of a system - Several friends of mine are single fathers and being dragged through hell to see their children even though they are great fathers. All the power with the ex girlfriend and the bitterness , the law says it protects the children but it really is protecting the mother and many abuse this position to exact revenge on an ex - Good father need rights equal to mothers regardless of marriage - Bad ones don't.

Add to this the rise of feminism , the extreme feminism , the talk of all men being scumbags , the belief of some that's it's ok to say horrible thing's to men , female on male domestic violence being laughed at and generally looked upon as not being as serious as male on female, a man smacks a girls ass in a club it's sexual assault , a woman does it and it's funny, from looking at these boards alone from day to day you can tell most men have become almost afraid to approach a girl or say boo to them even when they are very in the wrong.

So has it never been a worst time to be a man? Are men becoming less of men because of this? And has that balance changed to a position where it's now men in need of equal rights?

Just read the opening post properly now. Crikey, asking if men have become "oppressed"? :pac:

Crap fathers' rights being due to feminism?!

Female on male violence being laughed at and considered less serious than the reverse? Who is doing this laughing? Hint: not usually women.

I agree with you on the other stuff (it also gets used as a stick to beat all women with; regarding what you see here in relation to clubs, it just seems to be "Waaaaaa, women get lots of interest from men but men it's like shopping in corner of Lidl" or some other dubious comparison with humans, and "something something five out of ten") but the "I've been thinking about this recently" as if it's such a brand new idea that hasn't been gone over and over and over non stop for years is kinda funny.

py2006 · 23-03-2016 11:57AM

thattequilagirl wrote: »

You're right in that there is no specific reason why women should have been GIVEN the vote, it should never have been men's to give us. But they took it, so we had no choice.

You do realise that the VAST majority of men did not have a vote in this country back then too?

I've been GIVEN none of my success in life by men and I resent the implication. I competed against men in college and stood my ground, I beat men at interview for the job I have and for others.

Did you not have to compete and beat women too? or did you feel your battles were merely against men?

And here's the kicker, for daring to say this, I'll be labeled a feminazi who just needs to get laid.

Nope, feminazi's (to me anyway) are the more extreme, sexist, deluded, hypocritical members of that club.

py2006 · 23-03-2016 12:02PM

Ice Maiden wrote: »

Female on male violence being laughed at and considered less serious than the reverse? Who is doing this laughing? Hint: not usually women.

Hint: Not always but sometimes yes. If not met with laughter its, "yea right" or "sure you are stronger than her", "grow a pair" etc. Admittedly it isn't rampant but it sure happens.

Why do ALL campaigns ignore male victims?

Ice Maiden · 23-03-2016 12:06PM

Yes I know domestic abuse campaigns ignore violence against men, which is crap for sure.

In my experience the vast majority of downplaying domestic abuse of men is by other men. The lack of awareness of it is not just due to feminism I'm afraid.

orubiru · 23-03-2016 12:11PM

Ice Maiden wrote: »

Female on male violence being laughed at and considered less serious than the reverse? Who is doing this laughing? Hint: not usually women.

OK. This is what annoys me.

There was talk earlier on the thread about guys like Roosh V, these "Red Pill" types, websites like Return of Kings etc who are, in my opinion, sometimes actually misogynistic.

What causes young men to turn to these guys for support or understanding or whatever?

What even inspires posts like the OP in this thread?

This is what you've said... Female on male violence being laughed at and considered less serious than the reverse? Who is doing this laughing? Hint: not usually women.

After a very quick look online, this is my reply to you...

Yup. A panel of women cackling away because some guy got his penis cut off.

Hilarious right? "I do think it's quite fabulous".

Seriously. Watch the video. It'll only take you 5 minutes. Then consider your own post.

I can't imagine why guys "taking the Red Pill" is becoming more and more popular...

Ice Maiden · 23-03-2016 12:15PM

Eh... why are you assuming I'm not familiar with that video?

I am very aware of that vile harpy Sharon Osbourne's misandry, summed up by that disgusting video.

It doesn't mean women are always laughing at female on male violence - it doesn't change the fact that female on male violence is often downplayed by men themselves.

I can understand the anger at attitudes like hers not being met with deserved action though.

py2006 · 23-03-2016 12:16PM

Ice Maiden wrote: »

Yes I know domestic abuse campaigns ignore violence against men, which is crap for sure.

In my experience the vast majority of downplaying domestic abuse of men is by other men. The lack of awareness of it is not just due to feminism I'm afraid.

Oh I agree, men for the most part just don't talk. But also they are not allowed. Men in an abusive relationship run the risk of loosing their kids, house etc if they run from abuse. Even if there was no kids or property involved where do they go? Hence they often don't.

Plus men don't often realise they are being abused, certainly emotionally and pychologically.

Ice Maiden · 23-03-2016 12:19PM

py2006 wrote: »

Oh I agree, men for the most part just don't talk. But also they are not allowed. Men in an abusive relationship run the risk of loosing their kids, house etc if they run from abuse. Even if there was no kids or property involved where do they go? Hence they often don't.

Plus men don't often realise they are being abused, certainly emotionally and pychologically.

I was talking more about other men who refer to violence against men with "grow a pair", "man up" etc.

Men "are not allowed talk"?

Who is not allowing them?

orubiru · 23-03-2016 12:27PM

Ice Maiden wrote: »

Eh... why are you assuming I'm not familiar with that video?
I am very aware of that vile harpy Sharon Osbourne's misandry, summed up by that disgusting video.

It doesn't mean women are always laughing at female on male violence - it doesn't change the fact that female on male violence is often downplayed by men themselves.

I can understand the anger at attitudes like hers not being met with deserved action though.

But if male on female violence is downplayed by both men and women (and openly laughed about on TV by some) then doesn't that actually support the OPs assertion that men are "oppressed"?

What I am saying, I suppose, is that a lot of the responses to the OP that are saying "no way men are not oppressed at all" actually end up supporting the OPs point that men are oppressed.

Finding a video like the one above would be confirmation bias for the OP right? Person A thinks that women laugh at female on male violence. Person B says "Who's laughing?". The internet provides a pretty clear, very public, example.

py2006 · 23-03-2016 12:33PM

Ice Maiden wrote: »

I was talking more about other men who refer to violence against men with "grow a pair", "man up" etc.

Men "are not allowed talk"? Who is not allowing them?

Oh right, well some women do too.

As hard as it is for a woman to talk about abuse it is a 1000 times harder for men as

a) there is virtually no support
b) fear of ridicule
c) fear of losing of kids
d) elements of society and feminism suggest that only women can be victims of abuse.

From my own experience of trying to raise the subject in conversation (in front of female colleagues. No not saying this is all womens attitude) the reaction ranged from laughter, being offended to the topic being dismissed as ludicrous as "99% of victims are women" etc.

silverharp · 23-03-2016 12:36PM

Ice Maiden wrote: »

I was talking more about other men who refer to violence against men with "grow a pair", "man up" etc.

Men "are not allowed talk"? Who is not allowing them?

There is an argument for saying that men tend to see other men as competitors , if so then even if subconscious " we" simply don't care as much and for the guy affected he doesn't want to show weakness in public.
If you see any of those social experiments where a woman hits a man in a park, it seems to be the quickest way to put a smile on women passerby's face , and zero fks given by any men passing by

Ice Maiden · 23-03-2016 12:37PM

Men *definitely* experience awful sh-t due to being men (not all of it is the fault of women/feminists though - it's when that blaming is resorted to that women get defensive) but to say this means that men are overall oppressed - I think this undermines what "oppressed" means.
Women in the West are not oppressed either.

Ice Maiden · 23-03-2016 12:42PM

py2006 wrote: »

Oh right, well some women do too.

As hard as it is for a woman to talk about abuse it is a 1000 times harder for men as

a) there is virtually no support
b) fear of ridicule
c) fear of losing of kids
d) elements of society and feminism suggest that only women can be victims of abuse.

From my own experience of trying to raise the subject in conversation (in front of female colleagues. No not saying this is all womens attitude) the reaction ranged from laughter, being offended to the topic being dismissed as ludicrous as "99% of victims are women" etc.

How is it that the world is this way for you all the time?

In my experience nobody would dream of ridiculing a man who is being abused (except for my one experience of it happening to a poor man at work when it was laughed at by a bunch of men). If anything there would be extra sensitivity about it because of the realisation that it's hard for men to talk about. When men cry it is way more upsetting than when women cry, because it is so much more unusual and more difficult for a man to let go of his emotions.

py2006 · 23-03-2016 12:48PM

This is an excellent short video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vNErQFmOwq0

py2006 · 23-03-2016 12:52PM

Ice Maiden wrote: »

In my experience nobody would dream of ridiculing a man who is being abused (except for my one experience of it happening to a poor man at work when it was laughed at by a bunch of men). If anything there would be extra sensitivity about it because of the realisation that it's hard for men to talk about. When men cry it is way more upsetting than when women cry, because it is so much more unusual and more difficult for a man to let go of his emotions.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7PR5ryhnYtQ

There is a clip that I am trying to locate where a female student talks of her disgust at her largely female gender studies class laughed at the only male student in the class who spoke about his experience of domestic abuse. If I find it I will post it.

seamus · 23-03-2016 01:01PM

silverharp wrote: »

If you see any of those social experiments where a woman hits a man in a park, it seems to be the quickest way to put a smile on women passerby's face , and zero fks given by any men passing by

The key thing to remember is that this is not new.

Feminism hasn't caused female-on-male violence to become more acceptable or less serious.

Go back 100 years and a man who'd been beaten up by a woman would be laughed out of the police station, never mind the pub.

Does it seem unfair that on one hand you have people going ape**** about male-on-female violence, and not really caring that much about the opposite?

Yes. But does it mean that men are more oppressed than they were previously? No. It's just one area where the attitudes haven't caught up yet.

In my experience female-on-male violence is becoming less acceptable, it is being talked about more, and it is increasingly being taken more seriously.

py2006 · 23-03-2016 01:20PM

py2006 wrote: »

There is a clip that I am trying to locate where a female student talks of her disgust at her largely female gender studies class laughed at the only male student in the class who spoke about his experience of domestic abuse. If I find it I will post it.

This is the one I was thinking of.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FgKsniZ4N9k

Ice Maiden · 23-03-2016 01:26PM

py2006 wrote: »

This is the one I was thinking of.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FgKsniZ4N9k

You can find various isolated incidents of radfems putting down men if you wish, but this is not representative of most women, and does not acknowledge the role men can play in belittling other men.

Equal right - Losing it's balance in favour of women?

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